Savvy Jack
-
Posts
960 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by Savvy Jack
-
-
The head [45-70?, 45 Sporting?] is claimed to be a solid one, which is presumed to mean one, folded closely as at 0, similar to the Dutch Carbine cartridge. As it does not fulfill the conditions of a solid head it is rated under Clase 1.
For case-head Class ratings, check here
-
3
-
-
Back in January 1919, an article published in "Arms And The Men" about the 44-40 and 45 Colt revolvers and smokeless powder.
Ashley Haines writes about his journey with, and the accuracy of both in Colt and S&W revolvers using smokeless powders of the time. Haines never calls the 45 Colt a long colt, and with that....we focus on the 44-40!!!
A few items caught my attention,- Shooting the 44-40 Colt and 45 Colt at 50 yards with great results
- Referring to the 44-40 as a rifle cartridge and why
- Learning that the revolvers shoot best with pistol powder rather than rifle powder
- Shooting such loads during and after the NOT FOR PISTOL years, unless he has a short memory!
- Leading when using certain pistol powders
It is a long and very good article;
The Big Six Shooters-
3
-
-
On 2/7/2024 at 8:35 AM, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:
Got it!!
Has been added to the box date code spreadsheet
-
On 2/4/2024 at 10:16 AM, Sedalia Dave said:
Not likely as it is not offered in 44-40.
https://www.winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Power-Point
Oh yes it is, always has been....basically since 1895
-
1
-
-
Guys....all I want is to see photos of the 44-40 power-point box art....... no intensions on purchasing anything
-
All are insane....lol
-
Has anyone seen a new box of 44-40 power point ammo with the new box art?
-
1
-
1
-
-
Two Weeks
-
2
-
1
-
-
On 1/25/2024 at 8:13 AM, Major Art Tillery said:
I just recently had a local gun shop get in some factory Winchester 44-40. First he was able to get in years! But he said to hold onto my hat $125.
That box looks a little older than new....what is the stamp code on the inside of one of the end flaps?
-
1 hour ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:
They just don't tell you which "this spring" they are referring to.
I've been waiting 3 springs for a set of Dillion 44 mag. carbide dies.
Marshal Stone
I waited 15 "seasons" for 44-40 Winchester brass and JSP bullets, finally gave up years ago. To this day I have NEVER seen any factory 44-40 Winchester or Remington ammunition or components in any store I have ever been in.....LOL
-
The answer to everything use to be "in two weeks", now it is "this spring"!!!
-
2
-
1
-
1
-
-
11 hours ago, Deacon Doug said:
Doc,
What is the contact for the company that sells cylinders? If I can just get 44-40 cylinders to put into my OM Vaquero Bisleys that might be the simplest and cheapest way to go.
DD
However you obtain a 44-40 cylinder, just make sure it is cut properly to utilize .429/.430 bullets.
Here is an old link to a 2014 topic about the OMV 44-40 and 44 Mag cylinder.
https://www.rugerforum.com/threads/my-blackhawk-44-44-40-convertible.199186/#post-1993822
-
1
-
-
11 hours ago, Deacon Doug said:
I saw on the Ruger Forum some 44/40 to 44Mag convertibles- both Super Blackhawk and Vaqueros. There were several companies selling cylinders, including Ruger, but
my impression from the discussion was a 44Special gun that they used 44/40 cylinders. Anybody have, or used or attempted a conversion like I'm describing ?
Thanks for your advice,
Deacon Doug
Should be Super Blackhawk and Old Model Vaquero. The Old Model has a larger frame, I believe, as compared to the New Model
I have the Uberti Buckhorn 44 Mag revolver with a 44-40 conversion cylinder.
As usual, only 44 Mag/44 Special for the same cylinder. The 44-40 is a separate cylinder.If you order a cylinder for it, either-or, you will have "fit-it", or get it "fitted", more than likely.
44 Mag revolver with 44-40 cylinder, loaded with custom HP loads.
-
1
-
-
-
53 minutes ago, Palouse said:
How soft is that Hornady swedged bullet? Did it lead up the barrel? Did you try it with BP?
Tks.
I never did test the hardness nor did I see it advertised. It is a 44 Mag bullet so it must be at least 16? I never did try it with BP either...that could be interesting...hmmmmm -
I used said 240gr load back in 2017. I shot (poor shot placement) a Carolina swamp deer at 65-70 yards. The 1,350fps Hornady 240gr SWC HP entered high shoulder left side shot, hit the shoulder blade area, turned 90 degrees and traveled for a total of about two and a half feet (30") down the spinal cord destroying everything in it's path...including a lot of good meat. It came to rest in the right hind quarter. The deer never took a step of which I was pleased by not having to chase it in the dark.......but it was a bit overkill!!!!
I do honestly believe that load was good for larger game at that distance.
25gr is a tad bit more than published (23.4) but plenty safe for the Marlin 1894CB
-
26 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:
Factory loads should be find for deer or smaller. In a 92 or, you could "hot rod" the round to much higher performance if you want too for use on larger game.
I'd use it for deer, but nothing more than that.I have no reason to believe the higher velocity loading was for "larger" game. Just my opinion but I think it was for a flatter trajectory for long/er distances.
Like Charlie said,QuoteI have gotten my deer every year that I have used it.
...referring to the slower 200gr JSP
Rather than hot-rodding the 200gr for "larger game", I'd use the 240gr hard cast at a slower velocities between 1,200fps to 1,300fps. That already is 10% to 20% more "power" than the 200gr at the same velocities. This can be done with an Alliant 2005 published Reloder 7 load. -
On 3/28/2020 at 11:45 PM, Charlie T Waite said:
FYI, this is a factory load of the only jacketed soft points I could find. I purchased 1 box 9-10 years ago just for hunting. I have gotten my deer every year that I have used it. and the only reason I know the stats is that is what is written on the box, I personally haven't shot them through my chronograph. I didn't say you needed that load, just that it was what I used.. With proper shot placement a shotgun even in 2 3/4" slug 410 will drop a deer.
I figured as much when I saw the 1,190fps. Winchester last offered their 1,310fps load in 1978 using what appears to be 12.5gr of a rifle powder with a mixture of ball and maybe flattened ball powder. The following year, 1979, Winchester offered the same cartridge but with the slower 1,190fps velocity. The powder used in the newly offered cartridge was 8gr of a disc like pistol powder. Winchester also notes that the new loading maintains 869fps @ 500 yards. -
5 hours ago, Charlie T Waite said:
+1 I've used a 200 Grain Soft-Point (SP) with a Muzzle Velocity of 1190 and done very well out to around 200-250 yards for white tail. 150-200 is best though. I would say 250 would be the max for this load.
Absolutely, contrary to popular belief, all one needs to kill a whitetail is 700fps impact velocity for a clean shot. Where the shooter hits them and how and at what distance is up to the shooter's capability.
Quote1978 was the last offering for the 1,310fps velocity. It was after 1938 that Winchester lost the 1,570fps High Velocity option and after this year that the 44-40 lost it's standard 1,310fps load. From here Winchester dropped the velocity to an advertised 1,190fps.1978 - Winchester-Western, Sporting Arms, Ammunition and Reloading Components catalog shows the White boxes with Western Red "X" and Winchester Yellow "X". The 44-40 (Oilproof) is listed for both rifle and revolvers. Listed as W4440 (Winchester) and 4440 (Western). Muzzle velocity is 1,310fps rifle and 975fps revolver.1979 - Winchester-Western, Sporting Arms and Ammunition catalog shows the White boxes with Western Red "X" and Winchester Yellow "X". The 44-40 (Oilproof) is listed for both rifle and revolvers. Listed as W4440 (Winchester) and 4440 (Western). Muzzle velocity has dropped from 1,310fps rifle to 1,190fps and from 975fps revolver to 860fps. -
Velocity equals less trajectory and energy retention at longer distances.
Do you want 12" trajectory or 3 feet at a certain yardage?
Do you want 700fps at 50 yards or 700fps 500 yards?
-
On 12/10/2016 at 10:45 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:
44-40 was always a Boxer primed round, but I do not know the actual powder capacity of the old balloon head rounds. I tend to doubt they actually carried 40 grains of powder. 200 grains seems to be the earliest bullet weight.
I know this is an old topic and is about the 45 Colt but I must comment on the 44-40 statement.
Don't shoot the messenger!!!!
Actually the very early cartridges were copper and Milbank primed but didn't last long at all. The only known three boxes of Milbank Primed boxes contain brass boxer primed cartridges. It is even rumored that early cartridges were paper patched.Quote44-40 case artifacts excavated at the Little Bighorn battlefield between 1984-2004 are indicated to be these very early and rare Milbank primed cases. However, Scott notes that they MAY be Milbank or Boxer primed cases. He states..."These brass cases are centerfire and were primed with the Winchester-Milbank or Boxer type primers." ~Scott, 2006 Archaeological Mitigation Report, page 12)
In a private email, Dr. Scott also told me that the early cartridge cases were made of Bloomfield Gilding metal (essentially hardened copper), but soon went to brass.
I as well as John Kort, have dissected several mid 1880's headstamped cases and found 40gr of bp with an average compression of .21" of the powder. I have also dissected an early or even pre-1880 unheadstamed cartridge and found it to contain a heeled bullet.
It is well known that the 73' was used against Custer. It is also shown in Winchester's 1875 catalog that the early bullets had an exposed grease groove. 21 cases linked to 14 rifles were discovered on the Custer Battlefield from 1984 to 2006 but I have yet to be able to verify if they were Milbank Primed nor have any 44 Winchester bullets been confirmed found. It has also been said that many 44-40 cases were found off the battlefield on private property.For those interested in photos and more information, visit https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
-
2
-
-
facepalm...see if I missed anything else..Thanks!
-
What a great topic with some of the most positive replies I have seen in a very ling time for this cartridge.
It is very hard to "replace" the original charge of BP along with the 427098 type lead bullet and maintain original ballistics. Those early original loads catapulted the lead projectile downrange at 1,245fps. The bullets were lubricated well enough to lob 30 shots 110 yards downrange and all hit inside a 4" circle without cleaning the barrel between shots (Doc Pardee 1875 Winchester catalog). It just didn't get much better than that. Even today shooters such as John Kort prove the ole cartridge and it's original ballistics consistently hitting steel javelina at 300 meters (but using a scope). The purpose was to prove the rifle/cartridge, not the shooter's eye sight! Results from my gel testing days..."75/1 bullets penetrated 27” of clear gel and expanded to .528”..."The handgun loads gave velocities from 941-963 fps at 10 ft., perforated and exited the 32” gel block"...excerpts taken from an article by Ed Harris, bullets cast by John Kort and gel shot test by Bryan Austin. Proof the velocity does not have to be much to penetrate a typical white tail.
Moving on up to modern factory/handload cartridges...modern velocities are about 1,190fps, still well plenty enough to knock down a white tail but accuracy plummets in many cases out to and past 100 yards. In addition to many firearm's differences in barrel sizes, tolerances, projectile weights and other sizes piled up on top of a somewhat finicky to load cartridge....the 44-40 has achieved a very unfair but understandable bad reputation.
When a person begins to understand all of these issues, learns to adapt and overcome, a whole new world will open up. The 44-40 is actually a very multifaceted cartridge. From shotshells, round ball "game getters", 180gr XTP coyote loads to 240gr deer loads...from 50 yards to 300 yard options....decisions on a load can be almost endless not to mention the fact that you are enjoying a classic rifle cartridge and firearms that most modern weapons can not compete with. Lets don't forget the revolvers too.
Now we get to the good stuff.....
A little food for thought...pay close attention...because my writing skills remind me of a song by Allen Jackson !!
Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, (Double check my numbers) Lyman lists several powders and charges for the 44-40. In particular, Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. Lyman uses a 24" Universal receiver with 1:36" twist for these particular tests. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Those measurements (plus some misc measurements) with Starline brass, using QuickLoad...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted.
Lyman Manual....vs...QL (Quickload) Data
grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP
Group I Rifles (weak actions)(Lyman lists ten rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
xxgr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory Velocities) Normal LoadsGroup II Rifles (strong actions)(Lyman lists nine rifles).....That's nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40
xxgr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities) +P Loads due to higher than max pressures
xxgr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication) +P+ Loads due to excessive high pressureLyman also lists Unique and IMR4227 powders for Group II Rifles
Personally I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations right?. My goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics....not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status.
Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities ( but higher than black powder pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.
For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.....the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!
Not in Lymans #49 but is in #47 is the 240gr lead bullet information and Reloder 7 that produce 1,200fps at "Group I" rifle category pressures. The same info is/was listed on Lee's 44-40 reloading 3-die-set pamphlet.
Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.
Again not trying to make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum....simply just trying to get that projectile downrange accurately and maintain enough energy to knock down that white tail :-)-
1
-
Winchester .45 cal. (Milbank Primed) Lever Action Musket, 1872/73
in SASS Wire Saloon
Posted
I decided to document all of this to help my brain relax!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RvoGwDc0sxeN0bqN7ml5DniG3D48Q1Y6MjWqMsX-oZ4/edit