Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Captain Bill Burt

RO Instructor
  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by Captain Bill Burt

  1. 1 hour ago, Blazin' Kane said:

    That's very cool guys. I can't wait to get involved. Now if I could just find the dang ammo...

    I'm on the hunt for a shotgun today. Wish me luck.

    If you're planning on an SKB Fast Eddie is the man to go to. 


    Johnny Meadows does great work on a variety of shotguns and sells them as well.

  2. 9 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

     What Jefro says is right as rain.


    Best take a sturdy leather belt that you don't need to hold your pants up that you can hang holsters off though, many folks carry an extra rig as a loaner, but the belts don't always fit....



    Yep.  I tell prospective new shooters to wear a sturdy belt, good shoes (not sneakers), long sleeved shirt, and something for your head to keep brass out of your clothes. We'll provide the rest. 

    • Like 2

  3. 1 hour ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

    It has nothing to do 2A friendly, ability or respecting peoples carry rights.

    It is a liability issue for range owners. Our liability insurance does not permit spectators carrying weapons on the range. Only registered competitors can carry weapons. These weapons have to be loaded and unloaded at the designated areas.

    Hammer down on an empty chamber with 5 loaded is a liability issue behind the firing line. Semi auto with a loaded mag in and an empty chamber behind the firing line is a liability issue. 

    Does not matter to an insurance company what your proficiency level is. They are in the what if business. 


    That's what I thought.  Looking forward to the SE Regional!!  Just a few more months.   It will be my first big match since.....the last SE Regional.  Darn that Covid!

    • Like 1

  4. 1 minute ago, Blazin' Kane said:


    I agree with you, but it's the spirit of the 2a. A pro 2a organization should not, in my opinion, be telling supporters to disarm. 


    Nonetheless, I'm happy to comply.

    No offense, but you don't seem happy about it.  What surprises me is that with your experience you weren't aware of it.  What hot ranges have you shot at?  I've been shooting for almost 50 years and I've never shot at a hot range. 


    Another thing that surprises me, and this is not directed at you, is that some shooters don't differentiate between a corporate big box store creating an anti 2nd amendment policy, and a group (or individual) of shooters starting a range and creating policies for safety and insurance reasons.  In the first case I generally attribute the policy to ignorance.  In the second case I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to necessity and/or safety. 


    If the insurance companies say make it a cold range or we won't insure you, what are your options?  Unlimited liability?  Don't have a range?  Or have a cold range?


    Ultimately this issue is only indirectly related to SASS.  Individual ranges make the decisions, rarely does the SASS club do so.

  5. The 2nd amendment (for that matter the entire Bill of Rights) addresses government/citizen interactions.  A private entity restricting people’s ability to carry on private property has exactly zero to do with the second amendment.

    Nobody has a right to bear arms on someone else’s property. 

    If you come on my property and start speechifying about Joe Biden for President, am I infringing on your free speech when I send you packing? No.

    • Like 1

  6. 6 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:


    Oh you...I see what you did there. You're teasing me right? Very crafty sir.


    FWIW, I open carry to and from my local range, loaded. I take out my firearm, unload the protection rounds, shoot the target rounds, and replace when I'm done. Not sure where you're getting this "cold range" stuff from.


    "An armed society is a polite society, unless you're at a sanctioned shooting event" - Captain Bill Burt



    I could not agree with this more. 

    Or on the Wire.

    • Like 1

  7. 8 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:


    Please do not assume because someone is new to SASS that they're new to firearms or single action revolvers. I've been heavily involved with both for over 30 years now, I shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year, I'm SWAT trained, blah blah blah. This post was merely to assess the rules onsite. I may not agree with them, but I'm more than happy to abide by them. If not, I've already paid my membership fee so no harm, no foul. Big Brother has already assessed my competence to openly or conceal carry a firearm in my state. I would think a pro 2A organization would follow suit...but I was wrong.



    Safety has EVERYTHING to do with fighting and shooting skills. If I use my fighting skills and kill someone in self-defense I will most likely be serving time in prison. Same with shooting, if I disregard my surroundings and safety and my bullet penetrates the softspot of someone trying to kill me and hits someone behind them, I am completely liable, and rightly so. Safety is the first rule of martial arts training and shooting alike. 


    If I'm not competing in some type of sport, but I'm carrying a firearm, that firearm will not be unloaded. I don't believe in carrying paper weights. HOWEVER, I am more than happy to submit to the rules of an organization that I want to be a part of. Its the right of SASS or the private property owner to tell me I can't carry a gun. Again, I can disagree with it and comply all at the same time.

    This is, in my opinion, simply not true. 


    I know quite a few people who are excellent shots, probably would be great in a gunfight, but their gun handling is not particularly safe.  


    I'm certainly not saying thats true of you, but I am saying that just because you're very accurate with a gun, or can draw one really quickly, doesn't mean you're automatically safe.  Nor does SWAT training mean you're a safe shooter.  As Widder says, quite a few of us are better shots than 95% of LE.  No offense to LE, but that's not saying much.


    Forgive me, but I doubt anyone cares about what Big Brother thinks about your competence given Big Brother is notoriously incompetent.  I have a pulse, I'm over 21, and I have a clean criminal record, so Big Brother says I can carry, whooptedo.


    Around here, all the ranges are 'cold.'  It doesn't really matter what the SASS club might 'like' to do, if they want to continue to utilize the ranges they have to follow range rules.  As Rex said, it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment and everything to do with safety.  I've never owned a range, but I suspect some of the rules are related to insurance requirements as well.  It's interesting to me that you have all this experience, but the concept of a cold range, and the fact that almost all shooting disciplines (if not all) don't allow loaded guns off the line is new to you.


    Welcome to SASS it's great to know we're getting a highly skilled, SWAT trained, better than 95% of police, carries loaded guns, genuine bad a$$ kinda guy!


    • Like 2

  8. 2 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:


    What if I'm a much better shot and fighter than 95% of all LEOs? Haha, no, I have no problem at all respecting whatever rules are put forth and I'm very excited to be part of this crew. I just found out my existing Marlin 336 won't work for matches so watching and helping for a while is the perfect fit for now.

    I don’t believe safety has much to do with shooting and fighting skills. 

    5 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:

    Good afternoon everyone,


    I'm wondering what the rules are for spectators carrying in holsters. I may have missed it in the handbook, but didn't see anything there. October in Midland will by my wife and my first event, if I can't find any ammo to practice with in the meantime we'll only be there as dressed spectators. Normally I don't go anywhere without a firearm, but don't want to cause any trouble at the event. Apologies in advance if this has been covered in detail.

    As others have said, SASS rules cover participants, not spectators. Around here the vast majority of SASS matches are hosted by a range that is not owned by the SASS club. In those cases the SASS club is not able to enforce consequences on spectators. It’s up to the host range to create and enforce rules for people on the range.


    It’s not uncommon for club members shooting on other bays to come watch SASS matches. Often they have the gun they’ve been shooting with holstered.  I’m not aware of a SASS member ever confronting such a person on the status of their gun.

    2 hours ago, Blazin' Kane said:


    Please don't think I'm here to cause trouble, because I'm not. But my six gun, resting on an empty chamber, secured in my leather, presents zero danger to anyone. If I can't carry that, even as part of a "costume" that is period correct at an event where people are actually shooting guns, then its not a pro 2nd amendment event. My "carry gun" is sometimes the same gun used in these competitions. 



    100% respect for that. Any private organization or property has the right to set the rules regarding carrying firearms. From Albertsons to SASS to Hooker's ranch.

    True, but the PM knows that participants have been checked at the ULT to ensure their guns are empty. You may ‘know’ your gun is empty, but the participants don’t. You’re asking them to trust the competence of someone they don’t know. 

    I assume ALL guns are loaded unless I personally verify otherwise. I also assume anyone I don’t know (and some I do know) who is armed is apt to do something stupid with that gun.

    Having said that, as a TO or PM I don’t believe it’s my responsibility to enforce range rules on non participants. What am I going to do, DQ someone who isn’t shooting the match? Order them off a range that I’m not a member of?


    Unless they’re doing something blatantly stupid I’m not getting involved. At most I might try to get them off the stages we’re using. For that I would likely need a member of the range.

    It’s never happened. 

  9. 21 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Captain I pushed back because rather than asking how we resolved the confusion you assumed that we continued to use hand instead of hands. You immediately went into a grammar lesson. I used the sentence where hand implied the use of hands. Thats all. I wasn't asked if we did anything else. Which we did.

    I pushed back because I interpreted your response to Creeker as snarky even though he gave you the widely accepted definition.  I meant no harm, but on the other hand I didn't feel that response was justified given he was giving you an honest, and correct answer. 


    I think you're free to use words however you want to, but if your usage differs from what is widely used it will cause confusion.

    35 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

    So if the instructions say: Start in doorway with rifle in hand...do I have to hold my rifle with only one hand?

    Not sure, I've always thought that both definitions can restrict what the shooter wants to do.  For example, hands on pistols might not make a cross draw shooter happy whereas a gunfighter would probably like it.  Rifle in hand, literally interpreted wouldn't be my preferred approach, I would prefer in hands.


    I don't write stages anymore, thankfully, but when I did if I meant singular I said hand and if I meant plural I said hands.  If I wanted the shooter to have the option I said hand(s).  I've never written a stage that said 'rifle in hand' as I know some of our older shooters with 73s might have a problem with that.


    Just the view from my saddle, YMMV.

  10. Just now, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    So now you're offering opinions about stage instructions you haven't read. You don't know the outcome from the directions the TO gave. And you don't know how we brought this up to the club and gave them direction on writing, reading, and overlaying the actual rules.


    Just keep guessing and tossing assumptions. You'll get tired, need a nap, and the whine to your other wire followers.

    I'm not aware that I have any 'wire followers.'  That would be cool though.   


    I'm pretty sure I'm not whining either.  I'm trying to explain something pretty basic to someone who refuses to acknowledge basic grammar rules and instead retreats to personal insults.   I'm also not offering an opinion on stage instructions.  Hand vs Hands mean specific things regardless of whether a stage writing doesn't understand that and use the words correctly. 

    2 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

    I don't think this is about grammar policing - It is simply about adults using correct language; and by use of correct language - clearly communicating their desired outcome to other adults.

    If you are that determined to combine singular and plural - please continue to do so. 

    It does not affect me... 


    Actually that is untrue.

    I was torn between attending Roop County next month or traveling to Salt Lake City for the Utah State event.

    But since I am unwilling to learn a new and incorrect version of the English language - Your input has been imminently helpful in directing my decision.






    Exactly.  I don't want to shoot at a match where SASS rules are not only not followed, but the differences aren't provided to the shooter ahead of time.

    By the same token I don't want to shoot at a match where words have meanings that differ from English and the shooter is expected to know the 'special' language that match uses. 


  11. 2 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    So now we have to wait for the grammar police to wave their "educated" hand on how we write stages. Maybe we form an extension of ROC. First we conduct spelling tests. Then we begin with basic punctuation. Then sentence structure and composition.

    I never said we hadn't modified the use of the word hand or hands in the stage instructions. My reference was to a challenge made by a shooter who wanted to only put one hand on a gun. And the other on his ammo.


    Go teach a class somewhere. We're going to shoot with our hand.

    The shooter was wrong, not because of the hand vs hands issue, but because although the 'hand' instruction means singular SASS default still applies to the other hand. 


  12. 10 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Keep typing, you're only making your case weaker.

    Still don't care.

    :lol: There’s no case Ike. I teach people how to teach this stuff, among other things. I can point to grammar rules that back me up.


    You have nothing but your assertion that words mean whatever you want them to.

    4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

    'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

    'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.

    So ‘Can you lend me a hand’ means someone wants to borrow both your hands and ‘Let’s give him a hand’ means you need to give someone two hands


    So instead of teaching a stage writer the difference between plural and singular you took the ‘easy’ way and interpreted yourself into a new language.


    Ok Ike...

  13. 4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Again, I still don't care. 

    Do you provide a book to translate your stage instructions to English? Is gun still singular, or is it plural, or does the shooter get to decide.


    The White House issued a statement yesterday. Did a house speak, or does it mean something else?


    So give me a hand means take a hand off your body and give it to me?


    Classic case of being to stubborn to acknowledge you don’t know what you’re talking about so you make it up as you go along then say the same thing my 10 year old does. ‘I don’t care.’

  14. 18 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Sorry, still don't care.

    Applying grammar and spelling to stage instructions from what I've seen or read would be an impossible task.

    I don’t care much either. It’s a free country, for now. You can say 2+2 = 5 if you like, that will be just as wrong as saying folks are to lazy to write stages correctly so we’re going to create our own language to cover for them.

    So not only do shooters at your match have to know SASS rules they have to understand that standard English doesn’t apply?


    If the stage instructions say in hand, I’m using one hand, if they say hands, I’ll use both. It doesn’t have to be that complicated unless you want to start calling up down and singular plural. 

    What’s really funny is you mock Creeker for providing ‘his’ interpretation, which is the one taught in every school in the country, while offering your interpretation which is taught in zero schools.

  15. 1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Don't care what you called it, we're still saying hand and hands are the same thing.

    You do understand there is a thing called grammar and it has rules?


    The rule for nouns is you make them plural by adding an ‘s’ with some exceptions. For example if the noun ends in S you don’t make it plural by adding a second S. There are some nouns that have the same singular and plural form, such as deer and fish. 

    The noun ‘hand’ does not fall under either of those exceptions.


    The only person who is making up their own interpretation is you. You’re basically saying that you don’t care what the English language rules are, you speak a different language which means whatever you want.


    You could say red means green, but that doesn’t make it so.


    Hand means one hand.


    Hands means more than one hand.


    Pretty simple.


    Does make rifle safe mean more than one rifle?


    If hand and hands mean the same thing then if the stage instructions say shotgun in both ‘hands’ does that mean I can hold it in one ‘hand’ and leave the other at my side near my shells? If not, why not?

  16. 2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

    'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

    'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.


    39 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Creeker, thank you for your version of how to interpret this. We shall endeavor to continue to use ours.

    That's not Creeker's interpretation of what hand and hands mean, it's THE interpretation.  Hand is singular, Hands is plural.  As Creeker stated, the two examples you gave are of 'hand' being used as a synonym for something else.

    • Like 1

  17. 17 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

    If your mother requested you as the TO to wear a mask during her course of fire would you accommodated your mother

    LOL.  No, I would have a heart attack, then suggest she see a psychiatrist, since clearly a pod person has taken over her body.

    • Haha 2
    • Sad 1

  18. Come on guys.  We're all cowboys, all shooters, probably all strong 2nd amendment supporters.  Obviously we're not going to agree on everything, but how about we agree to disagree respectfully. 


    Yeah, I'm may not be the best person to communicate that since it's a standard I don't always live up to myself, but like Jules Winfield, "I'm trying Ringo."

  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.