Chief Rick
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Posts posted by Chief Rick
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10 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:
I think they are clear, stage instructions state with pistols, meaning both, engage each target at least once. After P3, P2, P1, P5, P4, the shooter can put the last 5 shots wherever he wants.
That would be P - unless your last shot was on P3 (the center target).
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9 hours ago, Wrangler Bob said:
I've been known to come up with some "unorthodox" shooting; as I read this "with pistols, starting and ending on P3 engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each". Being a two handed shooter, I would have shot [first pistol]: 3-1-2-4-3, [second pistol]: 3-4-5-2-3.
That's my interpretation of the instructions, feel free to correct me [I'm learning something new every day].
That is an acceptable way to shoot the stage.
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23 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:
If there is a specific way that you want a stage shot (or not shot) that needs to be specified in the stage write-up. Otherwise, a 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 is in the works for the gamers. Not me, of course, just the gamers.
BS
That's the thing - there's not a specific way to shoot the stage.
Why do so many people want to be told to shoot every stage a specific way? (Not necessarily saying you're one of those, but I do shoot with some people that don't want any shooters choice stages.)
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On 4/21/2024 at 9:01 PM, Sam Sackett said:
I would have shot it this way. 3,2,1,2,3 with first pistol. 3,4,5,4,3 with second pistol. Instructions could have been interpreted that way. Start and finish on 3 .. with each pistol……. Poorly written instructions…..
Sam Sackett
Poor comprehension? Or do you prefer being told how to shoot every stage?
It's a shooter's choice - round count stage.
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1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:
I would say no, because like you said, a miss can't cause a P.
Around here when a stage is written like that, it will often have added "no double taps" or "no triple taps"
I would not intentionally write a stage to say this, but...
If the stage instructions read:
With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each. Each target must be HIT with at least one round.
The shooter draws first pistol and hits P3 but then has two misses, then hits P4 and P5. Shooter then draws second pistol and chooses to dump on P3. Would that be a failure to follow stage instructions? Shooter had the opportunity with the second pistol to HIT P1 and P2 before finishing on P3.
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1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:
Clarification would be needed, but I would have expected those direction for EACH pistol, not P3 to be a dump target for the second pistol.
51 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:Those type instructions aren’t fair to gunfighters since they don’t have a ‘first’ and ‘second’ pistol.
I don't understand the request for more clarification.
It's a round-count stage.
10 rounds - five targets - the only requirements are:
1 - start and end on P3
2 - engage P1, P2, P4, and P5 at least once.
A shooter can choose the best way to engage based on their particular shooting style.
I also really don't comprehend how it's unfair to any particular shooting style, especially gunfighters.
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2 Pistols - 5 rounds each, holstered
ATB
With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.
For the above pistol string, a several shooters engaged as follows: P3, P2, P1, P5, P4 - P3, P3, P3, P3, P3.
If a shooter misses either P1, P2, P4 or P5 when shooting as identified above (example: P3, P2, P1, P5, MISS - P3, P3, P3, P3, P3)...
I would assess a miss as there's no way to judge intent and a miss can't cause a P.
What if the stage instructions read:
With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each. Each target must be HIT with at least one round.
Would that then be a miss and a P?
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3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:
Why do the ladies only deserve half as many points??
Something doesn't seem right about that.
Because that's the number we went with for first place.
When you only have three ladies at a monthly match on a regular basis, and maybe six on a blue moon coupled with an eclipse, there's no need (IMO) to assign 20 points.
As a club we decided on these points/rules when we started the contest.
No need to inflate numbers. If your club chooses to run a similar contest, they can assign points however they see fit.
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After each match, our shooters are assigned points.
First place male gets 20, second place male 19 and so on down the line. If there are more than 20 male shooters, everyone below 20th gets one point.
First place female shooter gets 10 points, second place gets nine points and so on down to 10th place who gets one point. If there are more than 10 female shooters, everyone below 10th place would get one point.
Points are tallied at the end of the year and a buckle is awarded.
First tie-breaker for both is number of matches shot. Second tie-breaker is fastest total-time for all matches shot.
We also give a buckle for the shooter with the most clean matches.
First tie-breaker is number of matches shot. Second tie-breaker is fastest total-time for all matches shot.
If they're still being offered, we may award Molly's tumblers next year.
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If you do Facebook, I've been posting our monthly match scenarios.
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55 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:
This shooter comes to the line and shoots 4 of the pistol targets, then knocks down 5 of the rifle targets before shooting the 5th pistol target(not going for the dump plate at all) before switching to rifle...
Then engaging the remaining 5 rifle targets before dumping 5 rounds into the berm...
Well, still no misses, not a P either. What I tried to create with this scenario is a SoG. On the assumption the rifle targets where easily engaged by pistol. Did I succeed?
On edit: Shooter intent is a factor discussed earlier. Hard to not see intent for my hypothetical next shooter.
I'm glad I don't knowingly shoot with this type of shooter.
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5 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:
I am not trying to GIVE the shooter a miss or a P, However OP states that
"With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets".
"The first three rounds knock down the first three targets.
Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot.
Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down!"
Meaning that Shooter did not engage all 10 rifle targets with the rifle as instructed shooter only engaged 9 of the rifle targets, #4 was engaged twice.
How could this not at least be a P for not engaging all rifle targets with the rifle. I shoot at several clubs and the unwritten rule for a target that falls or was not set before the stage is shot is that the shooter shoots where it would be. No misses. So u8nless the OP was posting the instructions different than written I stand by my call. And will gladly hand the spotting stick/timer to someone else if I am wrong!
Rafe
Rafe,
Since I'm the one that wrote the original, allow me to modify it by stating:
The first three rifle rounds knocked down the first three rifle targets.
Shooter missed with the fourth shot.
Shooter then knocked down the remaining standing rifle targets.
Without questioning the shooter or assuming the shooter's intentions - what's the call?
Not assuming where the shooter was aiming or their intentions. There were nine standing rifle targets when the shooter started with the rifle. There were 10 shots fired and no standing rifle targets when the shooter completed the rifle string.
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On 4/4/2024 at 6:24 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:
No.
The OP is delivering their subjective opinion of what happened. The only person who KNOWS what they intended is the shooter and honestly - what they intended is immaterial to the call.
What WE actually know and can score on or potentially assign penalty on is the following.
The shooter had 10 pistol rounds to knockdown 5 pistol targets.
AND we know that misses on the PISTOL knockdowns do not count.
Shooter engaged pistol knockdowns - in the course of engaging pistol knockdowns; a PISTOL round struck and knocked down a RIFLE target.
Shooter completed the pistol knockdown string and placed remaining rounds on the pistol dump target.
Lets score this so far.
Misses on pistol knockdowns do not count.
All pistol knockdowns were down before transitioning to the dump.
Shooter had no misses on the dump plate.
So no miss penalty is present.
The pistol round that struck the RIFLE target is immaterial as for purposes of scoring - targets assigned to a specific type firearm DO NOT EXIST for any other type firearm. The pistol round striking a rifle plate is not a hit, nor a procedural as that target is "not present" - it is considered "air".
So no misses - no P for pistols.
So now rifle - there exists 10 RIFLE knockdowns with 10 RIFLE rounds to engage.
One RIFLE knockdown has fallen - in this case because of an errant pistol round; but the reason is immaterial (under other circumstances, it could have been wind, rack vibration or a host of reasons).
So having 9 available targets (with NO assigned order) and 10 rounds for engagement - we KNOW one round will be designated for "air".
The shooter struck three targets - 4th went to air and then completed the knockdown string.
There is NO definition of "shoot where it was" - a round safely discharged downrange from the proper firearm at an appropriate time in the shooting string is sufficient.
As there was no shooting order - the rifle round designated for air could be expended at ANYTIME in the rifle string.
10 rifle rounds expended - 10 knockdowns down.
No rifle misses - no p.
Clean shooter.
In THIS instance - the pistol round that struck and knocked down the rifle target was (assumedly) an accident.
I "could" see other penalties (SoG) being applicable IF the shooter were deliberately attempting to take down rifle targets by pistol for some form of advantage knowing they was no other penalty for doing so. But thats a different discussion.
Creeker,
Thank you for the explanation. This is how our TO and spotters ruled - without asking the shooter of their "intentions".
Hope we were right.
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On 4/4/2024 at 4:46 PM, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:
Seems like you are missing something. Stage diagram shows shotgun targets but no instructions for shotgun. Were they just props for this stage? I could see this stage run as 10 rifle knockdowns with any left standing taken down with shotgun after 2 shotgun targets are down.
Shotgun is irrelevant to the situation.
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On 4/4/2024 at 2:35 PM, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:
Seems like poor stage instructions...
Marshal, I'm quoting you only because you are the first (or is it last??) to make this comment.
Stage instructions:
With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.
With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.
Anyone stating that these are poor stage instructions, please explain how this could be written any more clearly.
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This is the first time we've run this scenario with the targets set up in these positions.
We called it clean.
Per pistol instructions, only standing bottles or misses on the dump plate are misses - after 10 rounds, there were no standing bottles or misses on the dump target.
Per rifle instructions, there was no target order. 10 shots were fired and 10 plates were down.
Would any of you calling a P or a Miss change your call if wind had caused one of the rifle targets to fall?
The issue was with some of the rifle target locations not allowing a clean miss of a pistol target without affecting a rifle target. This is not an issue with stationary targets, but as you can see it can have an effect on knock-downs. I have ideas on how to make that work better going forward.
We don't shoot these often because it takes a lot of time to set them up in first place to ensure they fall reliably, without falling with a gust of wind. It also takes considerably more time to reset.
That said, we enjoy variety and using what we have.
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16 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:
clean
stage writer needs a bit of help
Please write this as you would to make it better, using the targets as indicated.
11 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:I find it interesting how many WTC are a result of poor stage writing, poor stage design and the posse marshal not seeing the potential problems. Did any of those listed take an RO II course lately?
Yes. I guess we're just not perfect.
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With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.
ONLY STANDING BOTTLES OR MISSES ON THE DUMP PLATE COUNT AS MISSES.
With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.
Shooter engages the bottles with pistols.
The first three shots knock over the first three bottles.
The fourth shot misses a bottle but hits a rifle knock-down, making it fall.
The fifth and sixth shots knock over the last two bottles, shooter then engages and hits the stationary dump target with the remaining four rounds.
Shooter then picks up rifle and engages the rifle knock-down targets. There are only nine targets standing due to one being hit by a pistol round.
The first three rounds knock down the first three targets.
Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot.
Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.
What’s the call?
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I bought a Pentax PF-80ED over a decade ago. Can't compare it to a Kowa or any other high-dollar spotting scope.
The PF-80 has served me well, except for one shortcoming: eye relief. After I started wearing glasses, I found the eye box on the scope to be more difficult to get behind. Pay attention to eye relief, especially if you wear glasses.
I bought the PF-80 based on reviews from a few bird-watching blogs/websites. Bird-watchers are very conscious of glass quality and portability, among other things.
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Remember when it was hard to find Huy Fong sriracha (we just called it the rooster brand)?
Now that it's been back on shelves it tastes different, and a lot of people don't like it (including me).
My new favorite is Sky Valley sriracha. It has a slightly smokey flavor and goes great on eggs. I love it on grilled chicken and rice.
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My current favorites:
For tacos, nachos, enchiladas, etc:
For hamburgers:
For general use:
These all have decent heat and good flavors. Not hot just to be hot.
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The 7mm Rem Mag and the 6.5x55 are really not comparable.
The 7x57 Mauser (or 7mm-08 Rem if you prefer an Americanized 7mm) are closer in performance.
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3 hours ago, Texas Joker said:
must have an uninterrupted view of the horizon
From the Star Link website:
Starlink requires an unobstructed view of the sky. Download the Starlink app to determine your best install location.I know several people who have the "RV" service.
To my understanding, the only difference being that the RV service can be throttled during peak times. That said, none of my acquaintances have ever had an issue.
One family, to include three kids, have run two laptops and five tablets simultaneously streaming movies with no lag.
That said, cloud cover and inclement weather can play a factor.
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We have our annual match coming up next month. Historically, I've just use Excel to cut & paste. It can be done, but it's time consuming and mistakes can and do happen (not getting people on a posse with someone they asked for).
The other issue has been re-assigning people to balance the posse.
Your macros in Excel are great for me so far.
It contains a lot of data that we don't/haven't used, but it's better to have and not need.
Thank you!
What's the call?
in SASS Wire
Posted
Not intending to be snarky or directing the comment/question directly at you.
As I've said before, people say "bad stage writing" and that's the only comment. There's no further clarification on how the person commentating would write it to be more clear "to them". At the bigger matches that I've been to and the shooter's books from one's I haven't, the trend seems to be more brevity in stage instructions allowing for more shooters choices.
Stage instructions can't be written to include every detail for every shooter and most of the people I shoot with like having different ways to engage the targets.