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Snakebite

Territorial Governors
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Posts posted by Snakebite

  1. 1 hour ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

    I had the only pair of 32’s I had left in the safe converted to .38 spl. and had octagons installed while I was at it. 

    2284A815-D525-423F-BA6F-1701741CCB9F.jpeg

    Now that's cool. I guess it might be an option after all. I'm sure she would like to keep the small frames. 

  2. 4 minutes ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

    Could she have the 32's changed over to 38's.

    I know of a shooter that had 32's changed over to 38 colts.

    That might be more trouble than it's worth for her and even if she did it she would still be loading two different cartridges. 

  3. I know a lady that has been shooting a pair of 32 HR/Mag Blue/CC Rugers for a year now.  She sent them to Shotgun Boggie  about a month ago for his Short Stroke installation and got them back last week. They are nice, but now she has decided that she is tired of loading for a 38 rifle and 32 revolvers. She has fancy leather that would need to be replaced too. (petite) I told her I would keep my eyes open and that she might be able to swap them for what she wants. I was able to do it with my wife's 32s a couple years back.  My question is this.... Is the 32 craze still going on? Is this a likely scenario? 

     

    Snakebite

  4. 10 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

    Snakebite, as referenced by this discussion, the rules on this point aren't clear.  I'm not lobbying for a change, just pointing it out. 

     

    Yes, I'm quite aware of the history.  As you know, at one point I rewrote the rules to introduce clarity and remove ambiguity.  The version I presented was declined.  I'm sure there were issues with the document that I produced.  People are, by very nature, imperfect.  Therefore any document that is produced will also be. 

     

    That doesn't negate the fact that ambiguity continues to exist.  If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have all of these "what's the call" discussions.  Pointing out ambiguities can help improve documentation.  If the Committee decides to clear it up, that's their prerogative. 

    I certainly would not argue with this. It is a know fact. Many things are and have been vague. Moving from the original idea of the rules and tiny rule book to what we have now was a long journey. As the game progressed thing became more difficult. What use to be the rule of thumb: "If it looks Cowboy, then it is Cowboy" developed into the various mods and allowable equipment, yata, yata. No, it is certainly no always clear. It is impossible to provide a absolute for every possible situation, that was a big part of the reasoning behind the training program's attempt to get everyone familiar enough with the rules that they could make a call from various locations and come to the same conclusions. Attitudes and regional preferences have played a big part in arriving at different conclusions. I think that is part of the WTC, along with the fact that many folks just don't read the rules, or are unable to understand anything other than a Direct and absolute statement that leave no room for any variation. Such a statement is not always possible to cover every situation. Any way, you are correct that everything is not made absolutely clear.

  5. 46 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

    Snakebite, just a point of order.  Range rules at Fort Miller are not SASS rules.  As Irish Ike pointed out, there's not a rule in the existing SASS documentation requiring a LTO, nor a penalty for not having one.  Only enough information to make it a guideline, not a rule.

    Doc... You ought to know that I am very aware that Fort Miller does not make SASS rules. What we do, is to follow SASS rules, all of them. The Range Rule reprint of Fort Miller was only a response to support what Allie was told. It was our match, I was the MD, and we enforce the SDQ rule for not following LT/ULT procedures. My response to her query was correct, proper and agreed to by every shooter in advance. 

     

      As for this whole thread, I've tried to point out that the posse marshal was charged with filling the RO positions on the posse. It states "must". Those 7 RO positions were and still are: The Timer operator, the 3 spotters, the scorekeeper, the Loading table Officer and the Unloading table officer. That charge pretty much indicates that the position needed to be filled, and that it was the Posse Marshals job to see to it that it was done. It is not a Guideline.  I know that many here don't like it and some don't believe it, one guy was even so rude as to make a cheap comment about some guy that use to be important... but the fact is, I was there and I'm pretty sure that you know I am not just making that stuff up. Those original documents were the SHB, the RO I course and the RO II course. As you well know, I was part of writing them, and also as I'm sure you know, I've not always been keen on a lot of the verbiage. Some work took place over time on making things more clear, but there has always been areas that were vague. The biggest rewrite came just a few years ago. But none of the re-wording or the last re-write changed any of the rules! Only a vote of the TGs or a mandate from the CEO can change the rules, then or now. As far as I know, Neither of those two events have taken place. I have not made my argument as to why I think that the shooter should be checked. That is not the discussion here.  I have only tried to show that it is required to be checked. That requirement has been substantiated by the ROC, yet some still don't believe it. If the guys here don't want to accept that, then they should consider asking the HQ for an Official ruling. If the rule has been changed, then it ought to be made clear to all just what it is. If you don't like the answer then lobby to get a rule change. All the bantering here is not going to change anything. 

     

    Snakebite

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  6. 19 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Some more Mud. I shoot cap and ball. And for me to know which chamber doesn't have powder and ball in it before I cap I look at the cylinder face. And then cap accordingly. Is the LTO going to take my pistol, look at the cylinder face and then give me permission to to cap? NO.

    All they are checking for is to make sure that you don't have a cap under the hammer. It doesn't matter if there is powder and ball in the cylinder of not.

    As for the references being from the old RO manuals, that is correct. My issue is that they have NEVER been rescinded or changed either by the TGs or by a Mandate from "Above". It has been "Clarified" to allow another shooter to act in stead of an appointed LTO and do the checking. But the need to be checked has not been done away with.  

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  7. 2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

     

     

    I can’t agree with that call.

     

    1. We have a clarification that another shooter can act in that capacity.

    2. It is the PM’s duty, but the shooter gets the DQ?

    3. The shooter can’t rely on the LTO but gets a DQ if there isn’t one present?

    What's not to agree with?

    It didn't copy well, but here is a page from our Shooter's book covering the annual match.  It is in a prominent location and is in Bold print. Every Shooter gets one and EVERY shooter signs an agreement stating that they will comply. There is no reason that any  shooter should be unaware of our requirement. We make a prominent announcement at the Shooter's meeting and every posse leader is told to reinforce it and not to start until there is a LT officer on the bench.  It is pointed out that failure to follow LT/ULT procedures is a SDQ. That has be done at our range for the past 30 years! Yes... from the beginning we have required that every shooter be checked. When we conducted our annual match during the covid event in California, we allowed other shooters to check each other. We did not relax the requirement to be checked. 

    Rules

     
     

     

     

     

     

    We hope you all have a really great time at our match.  SASS rules apply, plus there’s a few other rules you need to be aware of.

     

    1.   The Fresno Rifle & Pistol Club, our host range, does not allow any holstered firearms outside of the Cowboy shooting area, Cowboy HQ

    and while walking to and from the camping/parking areas to our CAS events.  You must remove your holstered firearms  prior to visiting

    the FRPC range house, the range restrooms, while at the Silhouette/

    Long Range events, or the Shotgun Range

     

    2.  Here at Fort Miller you are required to load and unload under supervision.  When it’s your turn to load/unload, make sure there is

    a Loading Table Officer. When unloading you must show "clear" to the ULTO.  

     

    3.  The FRPC is a dry range .  Our insurance and the FRPC BOD requires

    us to point this out. This is your notice. PLEASE, show no containers! Also. please remember.. Pack it in--pack it out!

     

     

    Our main goal is for everyone to have a safe and fun match.  Please follow all safety rules and encourage your fellow posse members to do the same.  If you have any questions about any of our rules, please don’t hesitate to ask.

     

     

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  8. I shoot a BSS. I like the mechanical trigger because I very often do not shoulder the Shotgun when I shoot it. When shooting an inertia operated trigger set gun it is important to have the stock against something solid. If it is allowed to jump back it may not set to the other barrel. There is also the fact that the additional weight on the BSS helps a bit on the recoil. Just a couple of things... not too important to most shooters. I choose the BSS.... however.......... I will get one of the new Sharp-tail CZ Coach guns when they get them back in stock.... just because they look neat and I want to tear one down and tune it up. They are quite light in weight so there might be a little learning curve if I decide to use it in the game. 

     

    Snakebite

  9. RO I Under Penalties, Stage DQ.

     

    • Failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure

     

    I'm sorry if I have ruffled any feathers on this very controversial issue. It's nothing new and comes up every once in a while. It has been my number one issue for a long time, as any member of the ROC could tell you. After reading this thread it should be obvious that it is not handled the same at every club, and some clubs even totally disregard it. The only way it will occur consistently is if Match Officials make it clear that they want you to either have a LTO or check each other at the Loading Table. If we just turn a blind eye to every thing we don't like, where will it end? We should all be willing to play by and support the rules, and to also be willing to ask for and support rule changes where needed. In the case of someone checking your guns, the issue has been discussed and found to be a solid and sound practice. 

     

    One other point: IMO, a good place to start when you have rules questions would be to ASK YOUR TG!    

     

    Snakebite

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  10. 19 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Well, there ya go. I'm going to impose my will, but have no responsibility for what I do. Sounds like a politician!

    Or it sounds like a Spotter. The Spotters will impose their will on you, and have no further responsibility for it. Go ahead, file a protest about their call on the number of misses and see how far it goes. The person acting as the LTO is there to help and double check you. So what that some of them did/do a poor job, they should be removed. I know every Chair that the RO committee has ever had. Find ONE of them that will say that you should not be checked at the loading table. YOU WON'T. Most will agree that you can be checked by another shooter if a LTO is not present. WR didn't use assigned LTO, but they told EVERY SHOOTER in the shooter's Safety meeting to check each other at the loading table. If you don't do it, then you don't do it, but just deciding that it is not necessary doesn't change things. If holding up your handguns so that someone else can confirm that you are not down on a live round is too much to ask, then there is nothing I can do about it at your range or anyone's range without support from the MD. As for calling someone a Nazi ... I've heard ignorant people use that phrase against me before just because I know and try to enforce and play by the rules. I have never taken them lightly, even when I don't agree with them.  I really don't care what you do, but it you won't do it at my match or at the Western Regional match... we play by the rules and require all shooters to be checked.   

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  11. This is from the ROI course before it was summarily re-written. The rules have NEVER been changed. Only two things can change them. A vote of the TGs or someone using their Power to do it. To date, neither has occurred.  To say that the Loading Table officer has no duty or responsibility is just admitting that you don't know the rules! One of the Posse Marshals duties is to see to it that all positions are filled. THEY MUST ENSURE..... This has been debated for ever. It has been opposed by many folks that just don't do it, and come from clubs that don't require it. But that does NOT change things. Lots of clubs and shooters don't follow or enforce the rules that they don't like, but they have NEVER had the votes to change this rule, so they just ignore it.  

     

    From the Original ROI  course:

    Posse Marshals cannot perform all of the Range Officer functions themselves, but must ensure Range Officer assignments are made and the rules and regulations are being followed

     

     

     

    9. Loading/Unloading Table Officers A) Loading Table Officers are responsible to visually check to ensure all firearms are loaded with only the correct number of rounds required in a course of fire. They count, along with the shooter, rounds being loaded into rifles and revolvers. B) They check to make sure no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm and that all loaded firearm hammers are fully down on empty chambers. While at the Loading Table, shooters must be allowed to make corrections as necessary to be sure no round is under the firing pin and hammers are fully down on empty chambers without the assessment of a penalty. Discharging a round at the loading table is a Match Disqualification. Leaving the Loading Table with a hammer not fully down on an empty chamber or with a round under the firing pin of any firearm is a Stage Disqualification. C) The Loading Table is also a good place for the Loading Officer to observe the shooter’s equipment, especially his firearms, inspecting for illegal modifications. A comment from the Loading Officer may save the shooter an embarrassing disqualification at the shooting line. Any illegal external modifications encountered at the loading table should be brought to the shooter’s attention and corrected prior to shooting, if at all possible. D) It is good practice for the Loading Officer to ask the shooter if he understands the stage. Explanations at the Loading Table avoid these questions being addressed at the line by the Timer Operator and prevent unnecessary delays. E) These officers ensure safe muzzle direction is strictly observed and enforced when a competitor is at a Loading or Unloading Table, as well as during movement to and from the Loading or Unloading Table. F) At the Unloading Table, competitors shall unload each of their firearms, and the Unloading Officer must visually inspect all chambers to make sure they are empty. Rifles and shotguns are cycled to verify their magazines are empty. All revolvers COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING™ SASS Range Operations Basic Safety Course ~12~ Copyright © Single Action Shooting Society, Inc 2010 Version “K” Instructors Version taken to the firing line must be checked, whether or not they were used, and only two main match revolvers may be taken to the line. G) Never allow a competitor to leave the loading table with a loaded firearm unless they are proceeding directly to the stage or expeditor position. Remember: The primary responsibility always rests with the competitor. Shooters should always know the condition of their firearms and should never depend upon the Loading and Unloading Officers to ensure their firearms are correctly loaded and unloaded. The Loading and Unloading Officers are simply an added measure of safety. A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties.

  12. 1 minute ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

    Our club has never done it. Shooters are responsible for their actions. The LTO had no responsibility other than slow down the process!

    The High Plains Drifters use to require a LTO at the Western States Championship when Quick Cal was running things.

  13. PAGE 89 in the ROI pretty much makes it clear that there is a Loading Table Officer and what his/her duties are.  It has been "Clarified" to allow if a Loading table officer is not present that one of the shooters in line can act as the LTO... but needs to actually watching and not be loading while they are Acting. In the old RO material it was made more clear. It got watered down a bit in the new material but has NOT been eliminated. Only a vote of the TGs can remove it.  The TRUMP card is this.... the MD of every match has the final say about what goes on at the match.... that goes for you local monthly match, or for the World Championship match. Only an ignorant MD would remove a position of safety. Having someone check their guns is something that some shooters don't like. Whether it is done by a fixed LTO or by another shooter, having your guns confirmed as being safe to move to the stage is a good and smart thing to do. 

     

    Snakebite

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  14. 31 minutes ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:


    Have you had issues with other primers not going off then switch to chedite and have no issues ? 
     

    AO

    To begin with, I shoot a BSS that has had the springs greatly reduced, and had a good deal of issue with most American Shotshell primers. I couldn't make 50% of any Federal primer go off.... whether reload or new ammo. I generally load Remington hulls. Of all the US primers, the Remington worked the best for me... however I still experienced a lot of FTF. The issue was MY GUN, I am fully aware of that, but I liked it and didn't want to change it. So, I started loading Euro primers which are a little larger in diameter. They don't load quite as deep, leaving the primer just a tad higher and allowing them to receive a better hit from the firing pin. I have NEVER had a FTF since changing to them several years ago. I have a pretty good stock of them, but always keep my eye's open for a few more when they come up for sale. When I purchased my last supply, they were $23/1000 so I got a few.  

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