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Shooting Bull

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Posts posted by Shooting Bull

  1. 15 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

    Straight out of the EOT 2024 Shooter's Book:

     

    End of Trail Shooters! We have an "End of Trail Only" stage convention that is important for you to know regarding shooter "stance". Our stage language "At The Ready" means, if no starting position is given the shooter may be in an athletic "ready" posture, with hands not touching guns or ammo. The shooter does not have to start a stage stranding upright with hands at their sides unless specifically stated in the stage description. Other stance instructions will always apply (hands at low surrender, touching revolvers, Rifle in Hand, etc...). This convention applies at End of Trail Only and does not change SASS rules at other SASS sanctioned matches.

     

     

    One of these years I should outta start reading that thing. :wacko:

    • Like 1
    • Haha 4
  2. 1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

    IMO, if stated "in hand" then that means one hand could be on shells if stating with shotgun.  If flat on table is not mentioned then I assume long gun can be to shoulder.

     

     

    Annnnnnnnd there's ANOTHER question.  I think it was EOT two years ago the starting position was shotgun in handS. It was made abundantly clear that meant if either hand let go of the gun, the other had to still be holding it.  You could not have one hand on the gun and the other on shells. 

    • Like 2
    • Thanks 1
  3. If it were me I wouldn't mess with a firearm's locking mechanism in the way you described.  In this case I'd bend the top lever the max allowable under SASS rules to hopefully put it into a better position for him to operate. 

    • Like 7
  4. 36 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

    Have you forgotten or ignored the SASS default position?   Thought that was supposed to clear up starting positions of hovering or odd starting position.     GW

     

     

    Not at all.  As Tn Tombstone correctly pointed out, SASS default is used when no starting position instructions are given.  

    • Like 2
  5. "At the ready"  What is that?  The common description I've heard is hands hovering over whichever gun(s) you're going to start with but not touching.  Okay, that seems pretty simple.  But, what if you're starting with the shotgun?  Can one hand be hovering over the shotgun and the other over your shells? 

     

    Or even worse, is the common description I've heard completely wrong.  If so, back to the original question.  What is "at the ready"? 

  6. 1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

     

    Difference in wording and some of our conventions....

     

    Stage instructions-

    Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 with one thumb on your nose.

    This means- You are to stand at position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of you must be at SASS default position because that is in our conventions. You may not have a thumb on your nose and be bent over double over your rifle.

     

    Stage instructions-

    Starting position: Begin standing behind position 1 at shooters' discretion with 1 thumb on your nose.

    This means you are to stand behind position 1 with 1 thumb on your nose. The rest of your body may be other than SASS default position because of the specified "shooters' discretion".

    This does not mean you can be touching gun(s) or ammo because those specific conventions weren't overridden by the wording. 

     

     

    I don't like when you and I agree.  It's not as fun. :D

    • Like 1
    • Haha 3
  7. 48 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

     

    IMO - Stage conventions only exist in the ABSENCE of an instruction.

    That is 100% why stage conventions were created - that in the absence of a specific instruction or allowance; stage writers / shooters would be subjected to a default.

     

    Stage conventions were not created to intermingle with the written stage instruction.

     

    It is not required to parse and implement every word of the stage convention that the stage writer does not specifically exempt.

     

    Written instruction OR stage convention; it is an either/ or situation.

     

    This intermingling of written instruction AND stage convention is exactly why you see inconsistent application/ outcomes.

    Attempting to combine written instruction AND stage conventions to extrapolate what exactly they are allowed to do.

     

    Even to address your example;

    shotgun/ rifle safely staged vertically at window.

    IF that is what the stage writer provides - how do you reconcile that with the assertion that stage convention defines "safe" as lying flat and requires such to be safe?

    You cannot.

     

    As soon as ANY specific instruction is given; the written instruction over rides the stage convention that is applicable to that situation.

     

    Taken to its logical conclusion, why include staging of guns in the instructions at all?  The stage conventions say that long guns will be staged flat and pistols will be holstered.  So unless I want to deviate from that, I shouldn't need to waste any ink saying it. 

     

    As to vertical, the stage conventions don't preclude that from being safe.  Rather, that's the default safe. The old horse props we used to use would be a good example of safe but not flat when an open SxS was on them. 

  8. 1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

    SB,

    Are you referring to EOT Stage Conventions per Posse Marshall sheets?  I find the long gun flat on table mentioned in #22 but IMO it is referring to when starting with long gun or revolvers.   However in Stage 6 and 11 because of board it was specified in walk thru that rifle was flat and not on board.  Interpretation of shotgun safely seemed to have "drifted" on Stage six.

     

    I never saw the Posse Marshall sheets.  I'm just going by the Shooter's Handbook. Based on that, I don't believe the Posse Marshalls needed to specify flat.  The fact that they did just shows all involved are going the extra mile to make EOT a great match. 

    • Like 1
  9. 1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

    Have to disagree with you, my friend.

    The stage conventions exist to provide direction in the ABSENCE of a given instruction.

     

    The moment an instruction is given that offers ANY specified or POSSIBLE deviation from the stage conventions - the convention is then over ridden and the written stage instruction or allowance takes precedence in that instance.

     

    Example - shotgun begins staged on left table; there is no specified or possible deviation from the stage convention - so lying flat is the default.

     

    BUT - staged ANYWHERE safely offers that deviation from the stage convention.  This opens up the possibility for vertical staging, staging on a fence post or hanging over a horse rail or two by four.

     

    If you allow me to borrow your car and upon return - I know standard practice is your car is parked backed into your garage - and you don't say anything differently; I know that is where I am expected to place it.  (that is stage convention).

     

    If I borrow your car and YOU specifically add the caveat "Park it anywhere safely" - I no longer am expected to back it into your garage (I may still do so - but am no longer required to).  By inserting an instruction that POTENTIALLY or specifically deviates from the norm - you have released me from adhering to the norm.  (that is a stage specific over riding instruction or allowance).

     

     

    Ohhhhhhhhhh..............Creeker and Bull..............going at it on the playground.  Dis gonna be gooooood. :lol:

     

    You can't cherry pick.  You only capitalized ANYWHERE.  Also have to include SAFELY.  Stage conventions say long guns staged safe is flat. As TW said, if vertical, fence post, etc were to be included the instructions would have needed to say that.  And that would be easy enough without requiring a tome.  "Shotgun open and empty staged anywhere safely to include vertical, over the 2X4, etc."

  10. 1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

    The above is what I was saying. You just trying to be contrary to me?:ph34r:

     

    Yeah?  So?  What's your point?  Would you expect anything else? :lol:

    • Haha 1
  11. 2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

    It HAS to be specific to that particular convention for reasons I specified above. If it's doesn't directly override a SPECIFIC convention, can we just choose which one we want it to override? No

     

    We're losing sight of the original issue.  Instructions said "Open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely."  Stage conventions say safe staging of long guns is flat. They did not override the stage conventions.  In my ever so humble opinion this should never have been an issue.  Stage conventions say flat.  Even without posse marshal instructions this SHOULD have been understood. 

    • Like 4
  12. 9 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

        I wasn't there this year or last(did I hear someone say, yay) but for what it's worth:

    Conventions say long guns staged on a table will be staged FLAT on the table. It's true that SPECIFIC stage instructions stating otherwise can over rule that convention;however, "staged anywhere safely" is not a specific instruction that would override that convention. That phrase is used quite often when the stagewriter wants to convey that the shooters can stage a particular firearm at any one of several possible locations. In order to override that convention, the instructions would have to be specific to that convention. I.E. "Shooter may stage the long gun on the 2x4, or long gun may be propped up on rail, or something SPECIFIC like that. Otherwise the shooter would be able to stage the long gun flat but really far back on the table, or have the rifle kick-standing up on a saddle ring. To disallow ALL of that, they would ALL have to be addressed in the instruction. That'd be lunacy.

      Bottom line to me with THIS situation is the stagewriters, match officials, prop and stage builders only have so much they can be responsible for. They can't ultimately hold each Posse Marshals hand. If they could do that, they wouldn't need them in the first place. The officials can give direction and make a reasonable attempt to make sure all parties understand what's conveyed to them. They can take note of what problems they have with a Posse Marshal, or prop, etc to make whatever change is necessary to keep it from happening again. This is a good group putting this match on and they have shown they're not afraid to make changes to put on a better match. I have confidence they'll continue to do so.

       

       

     

    You're adding words to the handbook that aren't there.  STAGE CONVENTIONS The following stage conventions (stage defaults) should be followed in all SASS matches, unless otherwise directed in the stage descriptions. 

     

    • Confused 1
  13. 8 hours ago, MizPete said:

    Been around a long time & have seen a lot of changes. 

    Original picture: because he definitely had that Mongo vibe I will give him a pass. 

    BUT, if we're going to have dress requirements, especially for a State-or-above match, I think you ought to make a bit of an effort.  It's part of the game.

     

     

    Who gets to define what that is?

  14. Posse 32 was instructed more than once in VERY clear terms all long guns had to be staged flat on the table. No part on the board. 
     

    Side note: As a right handed SxS shooter I had no problem staging both in good positions to be easily picked up. Yes, there could have been more room. But what was there was perfectly acceptable. 

    • Like 2
    • Thanks 2
  15. On 2/9/2024 at 6:38 PM, Tennessee williams said:

    I don't dry mine in the oven neither. That's where I hide my money. Safest place in the house. Right along with the bottom of the laundry basket. My wife'll never find it in either place.

     

     

    What's it worth to you for us NOT to tell her you said that? :ph34r:

    • Haha 4
  16. 54 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

    Yes you pull the rope which releases the mine cart. The scenario is you jump in the cart and shoot the stage as it moves down range. 

     

    Oh I forgot it's 10-10 +6

     

    Has anybody told you you're evil? :lol:

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