H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posts posted by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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What a shame! Leave it to California to throw away something that generate tourist revenue for the area, and prolly some money for the state as well.
But... That ain't a lobster. (I'm from New England!)
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Interesting. Looks like it doesn't have a silly safety. I assume half cock notch.
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Reminds me of the 9422, which was a fantastic rifle. But looks a little different. No idea what it's like. Is that a safety above the trigger?
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6 hours ago, watab kid said:
i commend you on wanting to ltter everything you have and your families - ive always felt itr wasa a great thing for collectibles and rare items - so there are maNY OF MINE THAT ID NOT SPEND THE MONEY ON TO LETTER , it is an expense that mostly you cannot be recouped , there are a few that id go for in my accumultion but many id not waste the effort on ,
Yes, this was an expensive undertaking. I can't deny that. Perhaps the cost of 2 or 3 nice Cowboy type guns. But, I felt it was worth it just to have the documentation. It enhances the collection, even if it doesn't enhance the value. If I had it all to do over again, I would have been saving all my receipts and things, and lettering every gun as soon as I bought it. That's something I'd recommend to everyone. There's just something "fun" about looking at a sales receipt from a gun shop that has been gone for 20 years that says you got a band new SAA for $400.00!
In the case of antique and even C&R type firearms, having papers that prove their age and status is valuable too. And remember, everything you own becomes C&R when it hits 50 years, so, that's worth keeping in mind. (Aside in just 12 years, EVERY transferable machine gun will hit at least 50 years of age and become C&R! While still subject to NFA 34 rules, if you have the C&R FFL, you'll be able to cross state lines with them, without permission!) I do think that in some cases, the letters are way overpriced. (Colt!) Now, it is true, perhaps, that everything Ruger has is in a database, while Colt may have to search through dusty old ledgers to get the info, some sort of a premium is legitmate, but charging 80 dollars for a Police Positive and $300 for an 1860, in those same ledgers, is kind of extreme. The way that say, Smith and Wesson offers general info about the model before getting into the specifics on your gun, and notes anything else they might know about the gun at no additional charge, is a big plus in their favor. Other providers run the range from bare bones to the more fleshed out presentation. It is what it is, I suppose.
To me, having a letter that enhances resale value is a moot point, but I do believe that having the documentation add a bit of legacy to them for my heirs some day. I get a real enjoyment of seeing my father's signature on a Mass State registration form, for example. Or his name on a hand printed bill of sale. Even a cash register receipt adds something, so yeah, keep all that useless paperwork. You'll never regret doing so, and might regret it if you didn't.
And if I ever get around to getting a Mini-14, not only will I letter it, I'll be sure to save all the gunsmith receipts for when then customize it to make it truly look like a miniature M-14. But what do I know?-
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The pump action shotgun? Early ones were good, later ones were crap. Current ones, I don't know.
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1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:
Yup, I have been collecting Winchesters and Colts for a bit over 50 yrs. I do not use Cody alone .I have a 38/55 94 about new with the original sales receipt from Winchester to local hardware store then to my Great Grandfather dated 1897 .
Cody letter said 1901 Winchester says 1897. BATF says 1897
That is a big deal to a collector.
Best Wishes
Oh, that's a huge difference, one with serious legal questions. I guess this shows us why having as much information as possible is important.
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2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:
When did they do that? when they folded.
I have access to a copy of the early Sn # lists from Winchester that were provided as date of manufacture to the government and Cody seems to use there own . ATF uses the Winchester manufacture dates not the Cody dates.
Quite a mess
Well, let's clarify a few things. Winchester, who does still make ammunition, has not made a single gun since 1983. (Some sources say 1981) Ever since then, they have had other people make guns for them using Winchester's name and designs. Most importantly was US Repeating Arms Company, who kept right on making them at the original Winchester factory in New Haven, Connecticut. That plant was shut down, and USRAC stopped making guns. USRAC went belly up in 1989, and Fabrique National got the rights to make Winchester guns. That started in 1990. They finally closed the old Winchester plant in 2006, I think. Through FN came the Browning connection. Today, the right to make Winchester guns is in the hands of Browning. They make through Miruko in Japan and FN in Belgium. I don't believe they make anything domestically.
Anyway, Winchester sent its original records to Cody in, I believe 1990. Browning told me they have records from 1993 in, but there is this black hole of mystery between 1990 and 1993 where a lot of the records are missing.
Yes, I have noticed differences between what you get on the When Was my Winchester Made website where you put in the serial number, the number ranges in that PDF file that lists models and serial number ranges, and sometime what you'll get in your Cody letter. Usually it's not a major discrepancy, but it does happen. The same can be said for the Colt serial number lookup on their website and what you get on your factory letter. Usually there is no difference, but at least 1 letter I got from Colt was off 2 years from what the lookup thing gave.
So, why the differences? Human error is highly likely. The only thing that can really have any "authoritative" accuracy would be the original factory records. Every other source would have to be sourced from them, but errors in transmission are all but unavoidable.
At least, that's my guess...
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2 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:
As for Berettas, they should have a date code on them. Somewhere, I have the way to decode that. I will look for you.
The "easiest" way to date a Beretta is, if you have the original box, look on it. It'll have the date listed. That's how I dated my 92FS. Don't know how long they've been doing that.
Yes, I have read about some of the date codes for Italian guns. They have these weird symbols and proof marks that tell you when they are made. Very confusing! -
3 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:
Are you lettering the Winchesters using Cody or Winchester? The dates are not always the same. ATF uses Winchester and many collectors use Cody .
Best Wishes
Winchester doesn't letter guns any more. They sent all of their records to Cody. Modern Winchesters made by Browning would be lettered by Browning.
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Sorry for being rather stupid on the following...
With regard to the FOIA stuff, what form are we supposed to fill out, where are we supposed to send it, and what exactly are we supposed to ask? -
Smith and Wesson: They do letters, and I think they provide the best ones out there. Price and turnaround are very good.
As you can see, they give a lot more info. Specs on the specific gun, general information about the model, and if there happens to be extra data about it, they tell you and don't charge extra. About a third of the letters I got from them had 2 pages of information, and even though two of them were the same model, the "general" part was not the same. One letter even came with a copy of the original factory invoice of the people who bought it. The rest were only one page. It is interesting to learn that this pistol was originally owned by someone from Boston, since I am from the suburbs of that city, and that he was a champion shooter. Also, there was no reason why they had to send that article from American Rifleman, but they did. The only thing they did not know about was the was the frame is stamped R.F. ENEWOLD under the grips. But even that is interesting. I learned he was famous gunsmith out in Reno. Oh, if this gun could talk! One other general note. S&W also offers a "Deep Dive" letter on certain specific models made a certain times that they may or may not have much more detailed records for. None of these letters I got are Deep Dives, but I have requested them for the ones that are eligible. If anyone out there has a Deep Dive letter, what's it like?
Cost: For a factory letter, $100. $90 if you are a member of the S&W Historical Foundation OR the S&W Collector's Association. $75 if you belong to both. For a Deep Dive letter, cost depends on what they find.
Turnaround: Very reasonable. About 6 weeks or less.
Website for S&W Letter: https://swhistoricalfoundation.com/letters/Springfield Armory (US Government): This one is a little complicated. They don't do letters, nor will they look up a serial number for you, but data for when the guns were built does exist, and is collected on the Springfield Armory's website. You can, for example, look production information for just about every model of rifle made there, and see where the serial number on your gun fits into the numbers they have. For example, one of my Trapdoors was made between July and September of 1884. Some models you can get down to the month and year, others just the year, others a 2 to 4 year range. But at least you can learn the dates. If you purchase one, today from the CMP, you get a certificate of authenticity that confirms it's a former service rifle, and when you purchased it, but not when it was made. There is also the Springfield Research Service, but I have not yet used them. They are on my list to see if they still do letters. Their website has not been updated in years. Website says letters are for members only, but there is an option to get a letter for non members.
Springfield Armory Website with serial number data: https://www.nps.gov/spar/learn/historyculture/firearm-serial-numbers.htm
Springfield Research Service Website: https://usmartialarmscollector.com/
Cost: $35 to join SRS. Letter cost advertised as $50 to $175 in one spot, $50 to $110 in another.Springfield Armory (Commercial): They don't do letters, but will confirm a serial number over the phone, if they have a record of it.
Website: https://www.springfield-armory.com/
Stevens: This one is also kind of complicated. The last time I checked with Cody, they told me that the Stevens records seemed to have gotten lost when Savage sent them out. They were hopeful, but didn't know if they'd ever have anything. When I was double checking things for this post, I saw that they now do claim to have some records for Stevens firearms. As of this writing, Cody says they have records for the Stevens 520 shotgun, but that's all. I plan to call them to see if they have anything else that has not been sorted through yet.
Cost: I could not find a listed price for a Stevens letter on the Cody Website
Website for Stevens seems to be same as for Savage: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/
Tula Arms Plant: Russian/Soviet Arsenal. Makers of, among many other things, Nagant Revolvers.
I can't find an active Website, but there is a Wikipedia page.Uberti: Does not seem to offer letters or dates of manufacture themselves, or through their importers.
Websites are as follows...
Uberti: https://www.uberti-usa.com/
Cimmaron: https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/
Navy Arms: https://navyarms.com/
Taylors: https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/
W. Richards: SxS Hammered Shotgun maker from way back. Could find no information.
Webley: British maker of revolvers, auto pistols and really expensive shotguns. They do letters. Note that these come on A4 sized paper, not 8-1/2x11, so you'll need appropriate sleeves for them if you plan to put them in a binder.
In addition to the Letter, you get the green data sheet, and possibly invoices or serial number lists that detail info about the purchaser, if any exists.
Cost: 25 British Pounds for database details, plus 6 Pounds if outside the UK.
29 British Pounds for invoice details, plus 6 Pounds if outside the UK.
If memory serves, I got a small discount for ordering 4 at once. I recommend paying with credit card and not by "cheque" to make sure you get the best exchange rate.
Website: Arms Research https://www.armsresearch.co.uk/
They have info for guns made by Webley & Scott, Wilkerson Firearms and even Wilkerson Sword. The sword records do not include info on bayonets.Turnaround was very quick from what I remember.
Winchester: Cody has records for historical Winchester, including stuff made by US Repeating Arms at the original Winchester plant. This includes records for Winchester made M1's, Carbines and M1917 rifles. So this would be a way to get a letter for a US Service rifle, if they made it. Browning has records for things made since 1993. There is a small gap in the records that neither Cody nor Browning has. There are also random gaps in the existing records for pre and post 64 Winchester stuff at Cody. For example, no one has any records for the 9422.
Websites are as follows...
Cody Winchester Records: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/winchester/
Browning Winchester Records: https://www.browning.com/support/faq/firearm-historical-information.html
Cost: Cody Letters go for $40 to $77 depending on what records they have. Letters for the Winchester 21 go for $92 to $122 depending. There are the usual discounts for being a member.
In case I have not made it clear, the discount for being a member is rather substantial.
Browning Winchester letters go for (I assume) $39.95. I don't have anything made by them, so I can't confirm.
Other resources that may be helpful are as follows.
This page is an online serial number lookup. All it gives is the year. Not everything will come back.
https://winchestercollector.org/dates/
This page has a link to a PDF file that lists dates of manufacture, including things that Cody has no records of. https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/faq/date-your-firearm.html
Between these two, you can at least find the year of manufacture if Cody or Browning has no records.Zasttava oruzje: Makers of post WWII K98 Mausers in Yugoslavia, imported by Mitchell's Mausers. Mitchell gave a certificate of authenticity, but I could find no factory info of any kind.
Mitchell's Mausers website seems to be gone.And that's all I have. I hope you found all of this to be of value.
Oops! Almost forgot one.
North American Arms: Makers of really small .22 revolvers.
No Letters but they will confirm date of manufacture over the phone.
Contact Info: https://www.northamericanarms.com/If anyone knows of anyplace where date data or complete records for factory letters may be found by anyone else, please let us know. I already appreciate the info that people have posted about 1911's.
Let the commentary begin!
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Henry Repeating Arms: We know this company. As I was going through everything, I realized I had never checked for info for my brother's US Survival Rifle. I could find nothing specific on their website for letters or manufacture date, but I did make an inquiry. As soon as I hear back, I'll update the information one way or the other.
Contact info: henryusa.comHopkins & Allen Arms Co. Another old timer I could not find information on.
Inland Manufacturing: Division of General Motors that made M1 Carbines during WWII. I could find no data.
Interarms: Virgina based company that made single action revolvers. As near as I can tell, they are gone. Best I was able to do was do a lot of searching and get a date range of 1976-1984 for my "Dragoon," kind of an extra beefy cross between a Colt New Frontier and a Ruger. I could locate no specific data for different models.
Israel Arms International: All I was able to find was that my M1 Carbine was made sometime between 1996 and 2003. I couldn't find anything else.
Ithaca: You can get an Ithaca letter from Cody.
This seems to be a pretty typical Cody letter for all of the things they can provide. Similar to the Colt letter with a no frills.
Cost: $92.00. (Again, with large discount if you are a member of the museum.
Website for Ithaca letters: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/ithaca/Iver Johnson: I really thought that Cody, or someone, would have records for this company, but it seems that no one does. There are general website like Wikipedia that can give you date ranges for certain models, but no specifics. The modern IJ has no historical records.
Llama: Spanish company that made its own version of the 1911, and who knows what else. I could find no data.
Marlin: You can get a Marlin letter from Cody, as long as it was made between 1881, and 1906, as well as some special "Presentation" Model 39's made in the 1960s. So if you've got a Marlin 60 from 1985, they can't help you. Also, data for some Marlins made between 1969 an 1971 when they were part of LC Smith is also available.
Worthog Arms is who I bought it from.
Cost: $77.00 without regard to if the records are Marlin records or LC Smith ones. Membership discounts apply.
Turnaround, the same same less than two months for all their other letters.
Cody Website for Marlin: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/marlin/Mauser: I was operating under the assumption that all of Mauser's records were destroyed by the Allies at the end of WWII. While this is true for rifles, records for Mauser PISTOLS do survive. So it if you've got a Luger, Broomhandle or some other Mauser pistol, you can get a very interesting letter from the Paul Mauser Archive. In addition to the serial number, they ask you to provide pictures of the gun itself, and of any and all markings. They then put it all together in a nice .PDF file that you can print at your own convenience.
I found all of this quite interesting. Yes, the last couple of pages are generic and not specific to my gun, but the general information about mine is there, and that's what I wanted. I think it's worth it.
Cost: I don't recall what I paid, it was a reasonable amount of Euros, but if you got more than one, the cost went down per letter. If I remember correctly, the cost of 4 letters together was less than 3 individual ones.
Paul Mauser Archive Website: http://www.lugerlp08.com/Mauser%20pistol%20Certification%20Service.htm
Turnaround: Reasonable. Did not take all that long once I sent them the info.Merwin & Hulbert: I could not find specific data for these fascinating firearms.
Mitchell Arms: I could not find any date for the Lugers sold by them, other than the fact that they were made in Texas by a company named Aimco.
Mossberg: Does not seem to offer letters or any data to confirm date of manufacture. Even if they did, it wouldn't do me much good. All I'll ever know about my one rifle is that it was made before 1968 because it has no serial number.
Navy Arms has no dates for it's Uberti imports and does not do letters.
Norinco: I could find no data.
Pacific West Arms: Company that made AR style rifles. I believe they are defunct and I could find no data.
Parker: They do letters.
I really like the format. The presentation is not so bland as a Colt letter, and they do provide some general information about other things.
Cost: $100. $40 if you are a member of the PGCA.
Website for PGCA https://parkerguns.org/
Turnaround: A reasonalble timeframe. Don't remember how long, but it was pretty quick, as I recall.Primary Weapons Systems: Another AR maker that is defunct that I could not find much about other than narrowing down the year that this rifle was made.
Pietta does not do letters
Remington does not do letters or confirm date of manufacture. Which is too bad because a little digging online will tell you that the records do exist. That being said, there are online resources that will allow you to track down some general information. But it's hit or miss as to what you'll find.
RG was a maker of inexpensive pistols. They also made a fairly nice replica of the Remington Derringer. I could find no specific data, only a general wide range of when they were made. (1970-1986) For a company that has, admittedly a well earned reputation for making low quality products, their derringer replica was actually pretty good.
Rossi does not do letters nor confirm manufacture dates, as far as I can tell.
Website: https://rossiusa.com/Ruger does letters.
As you can see, their letters are pretty basic. But, they are dirt cheap.
Cost: $10.00
Order Form: https://ruger.com/pdf/letterOfAuthenticity.pdf
At only ten bucks, they are the cheapest letters out there. I do not know if they will letter new Marlins made by them.Savage: You can get a letter though Cody. See the Website for details on what they have available; it's not everything.
Cost: $77.00
Website for Savage Letters: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/Sig Saur: Does not do letters, but will confirm date of manufacture
Website: https://www.sigsauer.com/More to come.
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Okay, let me get this started.
Before I get into the actual letters, let me start out by saying that I am trying to "Fully Document" my collection. That includes collecting any and all paperwork I may have for each gun, be it a sales receipt from where it was purchased, state registration forms, gunsmith receipts for repair or customization work, and of course, a factory letter where I can get one. I do not always have all of this. We, that is to say, me, my father, brother and nephews have not always carefully saved everything. I kinda wish we always had, but such is life. Anyway, with that data, without regard to if I can get a factory letter or not, I created a kind of a "cover sheet" for everything in the collection. Here's a sample of what I came up with.
I simply list the highlights as best as I was able to determine them, with or without a letter as well as a few other details. I printed these on nice cardstock. They are purely for my own reference, and if I were to ever sell anything in the collection, they would not go with the gun, but be disposed of. Unless maybe I become super famous and my heirs decide to sell off the collection for money and these could be used as proof that I owned it once. But I doubt that'll ever happen.
Anyway, this cover sheet does happen to be for a gun I have a letter for, so here it is.
Clayton was my father, by the way. Everyone I got letters from were willing to put the name and address of my relative, even though they sent it to me. I got this letter back when Savage was still doing its own letters. They don't anymore, having sent their old records to the Cody Firearms Museum. (Hereafter referred to as "Cody") I'll talk more about them later. As I recall, getting this letter was not very expensive, and it arrived in a timely fashion. It also has, in my opinion, a good presentation of the facts along with some general info about the gun. As far as I know, Mr. Callahan retired, and that's why Savage stopped doing its own letters. To bad, as I think that they were good ones and would have rated them highly. As it is, this is included as a "historical example" of what used to be available. If you happen to have a Fox Shotgun, you can get a letter from Cody. I am not sure about guns still in production by Savage. I will discuss that later.
Cody Firearms Website: For AH Fox Guns https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/
Cost: $77.00 (Note: There are substantial discounts if you are a member of the Museum.)
Turnaround time: Reasonable. Within a couple of months at the most.
I will list companies I could not get letters for. Either they are defunct, or do not offer them. Some of the ones that are still in business will at least confirm date of manufacture, and for them I included contact info. Note: If I say that I could find no data/information that means that I could not find any way to contact them or date the firearms they made. General info via things like Wikipedia or other websites may exist, but are not listed as they are not what this is all about.
American Arms, Inc.
This was a company that once made inexpensive but reliable pistols. My brother had one that looks a lot like a Walther PPK in .22R, a model PX22. I could find no information about them online or data for their guns.
American Western Arms (AWA)
We all know who these folks were. But I can find no data.
Arme Cugir This is the company that made Tokarev pistols in Romania. Still around, but no contact data.
Armi San Marco: Another company we are familiar with. I could not find any data online for the stuff they made.
Auto-Ordinance. They do not offer letters. However, if you call them on the phone, they will be able to tell you when your gun was made.
Contact info: https://www.auto-ordnance.com/ You have to hunt around, but in addition to themselves, they list resources for various model Thompsons made by others.Beretta. They don't do letters. I could also find no way to confirm date of manufacture from them. There is a serial number lookup online, but it does not work, so I won't link to it.
Contact Info: https://www.beretta.com/en-usBrowning does letters.
Browning Letter
I like Browning's letter. It is reasonably priced, but take several months to arrive. They don't have records for the High Powers made in Canada during WWII. They also have records for Winchesters made by them after 1993.
Cost: $39.99
Contact info: https://www.browning.com/support/faq/firearm-historical-information.html
Turnaround: Slow. Six months or longer.
An interesting note is they they send you the letters in a three ring binder plastic sleeve. A nice touch.Burgess. This was the company that made the pump in the grip repeating shotgun. I could find no historical records for them.
Burnside Rifle Company. Makers of the model 1865 Spencer. I could find no records.
CBC. Maker of inexpensive shotguns sold under store brand names like K-Mart, clone of the Remington Nylon 66 and other things Fairly decent quality, but I could find no information.
Chiappa. A company well connected to our game, making quality reproductions of various out of print Winchesters. Sadly, they do no offer letters, nor could I find a way to get even date of manufacture information.
Contact information: https://www.chiappafirearms.com/Chicago Arms Company.
One of a plethora of makers of inexpensive pocket pistols in the later 1800's/early 1900's. I could find almost no information about this company.
Colt. Well, we know who these people are. Letters are very expensive, and take a very long time to arrive. Records are mostly complete going back to at least the Civil War era.
Contact Information: https://www.colt.com/archive-services/
Cost: $80 to $305 depending on model. Note that if your gun has special features like factory engraving, or their records indicate it was once owned by someone famous, they will add $50 to $200 to the price! Discounts are available for buying in bulk.
Turnaround time: Very slow. Over six months.
To be honest, I think that Colt letters are way over priced when compared to the more detailed information you get from other gun makers, and the bare bones format of the data they provide. And the extra charges and more expensive price depending on model is just plain annoying. They also don't include any info about work done on the guns at the factory. For example, my 1911 that I had a factory ambi safety installed on does not list this. Nor do three guns I have returned to them for service have that indicated on the letters.
Also, note this site: https://www.colt.com/serial-lookup/ If you put your serial number in here, there is a 90% it will give you the date of manufacture. Before I sent in a list of guns with serial numbers, I input them all here to confirm exactly which model they were. Some of the Detective Special/Police Positive and similar revolvers are not clearly marked, but the serial number look up will tell you what yours is.Corona. Typwriter company that made 1903-A3 rifles during WWII. They don't seem to have data, but the serial number ranges are covered on the Springfield Armory website. More on that later.
Crossman. Makers of BB guns and air rifles. They don't do letters, but can confirm date of manufacture if you call them on the phone.
Contact info: https://www.crosman.com/Daisy. Like Crossman, they don't do letters, but will confirm on the phone when their airguns were made.
Contact info: https://www.daisy.com/Diana Makers if high end air guns. No letters, but they did confirm date of manufacture for me.
Contact Info: http://www.diana-airguns-us.com/Deutsche Werke German maker of decent pocket pistols. I was able to find rough manufacture dates for my .25 Auto pistol via Wikipedia, but not much else.
EMF, Adler Jager imports. EMF does not do letters, but they were able to give me a rough date of manufacture for the guns they imported from Alder in the late 1980s.
Contact Info: https://www.emf-company.com/Enfield: British military rifles and pistols for both civilian and military use. Info about the now defunct company is easy to obtain, but I could not find anyone with their records. Most of the things they made do have a date code stamped on them though, especially military stuff.
Euroarms of America. Importer of a replica of the Rogers and Spencer cap and ball revolver, and I assume other things. I could find no significant production data about them online.
Fabrica Militar de Armas Portables (FMAP): Makers of a 1911A1 copy, under license, in Argentina. I did find manufacture dates online, but that is all. Sadly, I can't recall where I found the data, but here is the company website, which I only found when putting this post together. It does not seem to have data for their pistols. https://www.fm.gob.ar/ I have inquired to them about historical data. If I learn anything more, I will post it.
FN Herstal. European military rifle maker. I could find no data online for their guns.
Glock. No letters, but they will confirm date of manufacture on the phone.
Contact info: https://us.glock.com/enGreat Western Firearms. Defunct company that made the original SAA Clone back in the 50's. I found general information online to date my pistol, but obviously, no way to get a letter.
They do have a website: https://www.greatwesternfirearms.com/W.W. Greener. Makers of all kinds of nice shotguns. They used to do letters but don't anymore. Their website does have data listed online to give you dates of manufacture.
Website: https://www.wwgreener.com/repairs.html At the bottom of the page is a link to a document with dates of manufacture.More to come.
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Okay. I'll try to get the project started today. To try to be as complete as possible, I'll even include info for gun makers who don't offer letters, but who will confirm a manufacture date over the phone for you. Over the course of doing all of this, I have "discovered" a lot of interesting facts and resources that can help you date your firearms, even if you can't "document" them. I will share all of this as best I can. It's all quite fascinating. I think I'll go in alphabetical order, just to keep it simple, and provide links to website and so on. I'll probably also break it up over several posts to keep it manageable.
Finally, I only ask that if anyone knows of any way to get information for a gun made my someone that I could find, please, let us know!
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I few months ago, I shared how I was gonna start getting letters for everything in my collection, including the guns of my late father and brother and my nephews. I still have more than a few things to letter, mostly stuff belonging to them, I need them to give me the data, but I believe I have a letter from everyone I can get one from already.
Would people be interested in my assessment of the letter process, perhaps with some (edited) pictures?-
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Well, as long as we are "interpreting" the rules...
From the Handbook.
"Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. The first violation will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty. The second violation will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment. Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location."
To reiterate...
Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule.
I "interpret" this to mean that the rule will never be enforced.
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4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:
Be aware that having the drop 2 mod done to an 87 effectively means that you can no longer stoke the magazine.
Which is why neither my Winchester, which is very old and was tuned up by Coyote Cap to repair age related problems, or my Chiappa, which is out of the box stock, have had the drop 2 done to either of them. I like being able to stoke.
That being said, with both shotguns, I have learned that if you push the carrier down, you can then drop 2 two shells into the action, and be able to cycle both of them. Not as "efficiently" as with a real drop 2 mod, but you can do it.
The Chiappa, by the way, is smooth as silk out of the box and of comparable quality to a real Winchester. Which is probably why it's so much more expensive. But, you get what you pay for. I suppose you could modify it if you want to, but there is really no need to do so. If only they made one with a 30" full choke barrel. Alas... -
On 8/4/2024 at 8:21 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:
I wish my loops were loose!
Let me explain that.
I usually shoot all brass shotshells. The loops hold them more tightly than the do plastic shell, and they are thus kinda hard to pull out. Which is why I often just use a pouch. -
I wish my loops were loose!
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Shooter starts at position 1 with 1 shotshell in hand and shotgun staged on the prop.
At the beep, shooter picks up shotgun and loads the 1 shell and engages the 1 SG target.
With shotgun open and empty, shooter moves to position 2 and places shotgun on prop.10-10-4 sequence to follow.
Never seen such a stage. Not saying it would be good or bad, but if this is what the instructions call for, it would be what you do.
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No harm in thinking, Cotton. That's where ideas come from.
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7 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:
Let's say the event organizers come up with a dozen really interesting side match ideas. (What they are is not important for this) They quickly realize that they just can't pull off all 12 of them for reasons of space, people to run them, or whatever.
6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:and space, time, help...
Gee, I kinda said that... -
Doing more than 2 or 3 "Special" side matches very well could be logistically problematic at the biggest of matches. Then again, when I was at EoT a few years ago, there was at times no one in line for some of the ones I wanted to try, or at most less than 5. Others were very popular and had small crowds. I guess it all depends on how much "space" you have to try these different things in.
Let's say the event organizers come up with a dozen really interesting side match ideas. (What they are is not important for this) They quickly realize that they just can't pull off all 12 of them for reasons of space, people to run them, or whatever. Perhaps the "solution" would be to take a poll, here on the Wire, via a method revealed in the Cowboy Chronicle, or something, to see which ideas generate the most interest, and then pick to top 2 or 3 to stage.
Generally, I have noticed that side match participation seems to have diminished over the years. I don't know why. But I have also noticed that 3 or 4 stage "warm up/mini matches" on side match day seem to be growing in popularity. -
I suppose I should be more specific....
Among other ideas I have had, or things I have seen, include the following....
Using 3 rifles, over a course of fire, a .22, a Main Match rifle and a rifle caliber repeating rifle. If needed, add a shotgun to set off the timer.
A variant of the above could be done with single shots.
I sorta normal 10-10-4 type stage, but in stead, 4-2-5-4. Four pocket Pistol, 2 Derringer, 5 rifle caliber rifle, 4 shotgun
Something to allow for the use of various pre-1900 design guns that normally have a place in our game. Things like pre-1900 DA revolvers, revolver carbines, and a small handful of other stuff. Probably can't find away to allow for everything that existed, but creative thinking could allow for some oddball stuff.
A "Foreign stuff" side match. Things of the era that were found primarily in Europe or other parts of the world.
Something that uses, well, everything from a derringer through main match guns to single shot rifles. This is one I've read about before, but never seen.The only thing that should limit side matches is the imagination.
Factory letter assessment.
in SASS Wire
Posted
For what it's worth, I am looking into the FOIA Stuff, and other options from Springfield Research Service. I did a FOIA request for an M1D I bought from the CMP a few years ago because I thought it was the most "interesting" of my military rifles. As far as SRS goes, in keeping closer to our game, I may request a letters for my Krags. Both of them look like they have been modified, and if SRS is still providing, based on what is on their website, they may have records of these modifications. If and when I get anything, I'll report it here, amending in a separate post the Springfield Armory Government entry. There looks to be the following options....
1. Basic Letter for $50 for subscribers, $95 for non subscribers.
2. Basic Letter with Sales Information for $65 for subscribers $110 for non subscribers.
Then there is the Detailed Letter.
For no charge, if you are a subscriber you can send in your serial number and they will tell you if they have any data for the detailed letter.
The cost for the Detailed Letter is $175 for initial research, plus another $100 for additional research. Detailed letters are for subscribers only.
For the cost, I don't think I'll go for any detailed letters, but it's clearly worth subscribing to get the discount on the Basic ones. I'll look into this more once my subscription is verified.
Can I request that this thread be pinned? Others in the future may be curious on how to get a factory letter from whoever, and it's all collected right here.