H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posts posted by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Okay, let me get this started.
Before I get into the actual letters, let me start out by saying that I am trying to "Fully Document" my collection. That includes collecting any and all paperwork I may have for each gun, be it a sales receipt from where it was purchased, state registration forms, gunsmith receipts for repair or customization work, and of course, a factory letter where I can get one. I do not always have all of this. We, that is to say, me, my father, brother and nephews have not always carefully saved everything. I kinda wish we always had, but such is life. Anyway, with that data, without regard to if I can get a factory letter or not, I created a kind of a "cover sheet" for everything in the collection. Here's a sample of what I came up with.
I simply list the highlights as best as I was able to determine them, with or without a letter as well as a few other details. I printed these on nice cardstock. They are purely for my own reference, and if I were to ever sell anything in the collection, they would not go with the gun, but be disposed of. Unless maybe I become super famous and my heirs decide to sell off the collection for money and these could be used as proof that I owned it once. But I doubt that'll ever happen.
Anyway, this cover sheet does happen to be for a gun I have a letter for, so here it is.
Clayton was my father, by the way. Everyone I got letters from were willing to put the name and address of my relative, even though they sent it to me. I got this letter back when Savage was still doing its own letters. They don't anymore, having sent their old records to the Cody Firearms Museum. (Hereafter referred to as "Cody") I'll talk more about them later. As I recall, getting this letter was not very expensive, and it arrived in a timely fashion. It also has, in my opinion, a good presentation of the facts along with some general info about the gun. As far as I know, Mr. Callahan retired, and that's why Savage stopped doing its own letters. To bad, as I think that they were good ones and would have rated them highly. As it is, this is included as a "historical example" of what used to be available. If you happen to have a Fox Shotgun, you can get a letter from Cody. I am not sure about guns still in production by Savage. I will discuss that later.
Cody Firearms Website: For AH Fox Guns https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/
Cost: $77.00 (Note: There are substantial discounts if you are a member of the Museum.)
Turnaround time: Reasonable. Within a couple of months at the most.
I will list companies I could not get letters for. Either they are defunct, or do not offer them. Some of the ones that are still in business will at least confirm date of manufacture, and for them I included contact info. Note: If I say that I could find no data/information that means that I could not find any way to contact them or date the firearms they made. General info via things like Wikipedia or other websites may exist, but are not listed as they are not what this is all about.
American Arms, Inc.
This was a company that once made inexpensive but reliable pistols. My brother had one that looks a lot like a Walther PPK in .22R, a model PX22. I could find no information about them online or data for their guns.
American Western Arms (AWA)
We all know who these folks were. But I can find no data.
Arme Cugir This is the company that made Tokarev pistols in Romania. Still around, but no contact data.
Armi San Marco: Another company we are familiar with. I could not find any data online for the stuff they made.
Auto-Ordinance. They do not offer letters. However, if you call them on the phone, they will be able to tell you when your gun was made.
Contact info: https://www.auto-ordnance.com/ You have to hunt around, but in addition to themselves, they list resources for various model Thompsons made by others.Beretta. They don't do letters. I could also find no way to confirm date of manufacture from them. There is a serial number lookup online, but it does not work, so I won't link to it.
Contact Info: https://www.beretta.com/en-usBrowning does letters.
Browning Letter
I like Browning's letter. It is reasonably priced, but take several months to arrive. They don't have records for the High Powers made in Canada during WWII. They also have records for Winchesters made by them after 1993.
Cost: $39.99
Contact info: https://www.browning.com/support/faq/firearm-historical-information.html
Turnaround: Slow. Six months or longer.
An interesting note is they they send you the letters in a three ring binder plastic sleeve. A nice touch.Burgess. This was the company that made the pump in the grip repeating shotgun. I could find no historical records for them.
Burnside Rifle Company. Makers of the model 1865 Spencer. I could find no records.
CBC. Maker of inexpensive shotguns sold under store brand names like K-Mart, clone of the Remington Nylon 66 and other things Fairly decent quality, but I could find no information.
Chiappa. A company well connected to our game, making quality reproductions of various out of print Winchesters. Sadly, they do no offer letters, nor could I find a way to get even date of manufacture information.
Contact information: https://www.chiappafirearms.com/Chicago Arms Company.
One of a plethora of makers of inexpensive pocket pistols in the later 1800's/early 1900's. I could find almost no information about this company.
Colt. Well, we know who these people are. Letters are very expensive, and take a very long time to arrive. Records are mostly complete going back to at least the Civil War era.
Contact Information: https://www.colt.com/archive-services/
Cost: $80 to $305 depending on model. Note that if your gun has special features like factory engraving, or their records indicate it was once owned by someone famous, they will add $50 to $200 to the price! Discounts are available for buying in bulk.
Turnaround time: Very slow. Over six months.
To be honest, I think that Colt letters are way over priced when compared to the more detailed information you get from other gun makers, and the bare bones format of the data they provide. And the extra charges and more expensive price depending on model is just plain annoying. They also don't include any info about work done on the guns at the factory. For example, my 1911 that I had a factory ambi safety installed on does not list this. Nor do three guns I have returned to them for service have that indicated on the letters.
Also, note this site: https://www.colt.com/serial-lookup/ If you put your serial number in here, there is a 90% it will give you the date of manufacture. Before I sent in a list of guns with serial numbers, I input them all here to confirm exactly which model they were. Some of the Detective Special/Police Positive and similar revolvers are not clearly marked, but the serial number look up will tell you what yours is.Corona. Typwriter company that made 1903-A3 rifles during WWII. They don't seem to have data, but the serial number ranges are covered on the Springfield Armory website. More on that later.
Crossman. Makers of BB guns and air rifles. They don't do letters, but can confirm date of manufacture if you call them on the phone.
Contact info: https://www.crosman.com/Daisy. Like Crossman, they don't do letters, but will confirm on the phone when their airguns were made.
Contact info: https://www.daisy.com/Diana Makers if high end air guns. No letters, but they did confirm date of manufacture for me.
Contact Info: http://www.diana-airguns-us.com/Deutsche Werke German maker of decent pocket pistols. I was able to find rough manufacture dates for my .25 Auto pistol via Wikipedia, but not much else.
EMF, Adler Jager imports. EMF does not do letters, but they were able to give me a rough date of manufacture for the guns they imported from Alder in the late 1980s.
Contact Info: https://www.emf-company.com/Enfield: British military rifles and pistols for both civilian and military use. Info about the now defunct company is easy to obtain, but I could not find anyone with their records. Most of the things they made do have a date code stamped on them though, especially military stuff.
Euroarms of America. Importer of a replica of the Rogers and Spencer cap and ball revolver, and I assume other things. I could find no significant production data about them online.
Fabrica Militar de Armas Portables (FMAP): Makers of a 1911A1 copy, under license, in Argentina. I did find manufacture dates online, but that is all. Sadly, I can't recall where I found the data, but here is the company website, which I only found when putting this post together. It does not seem to have data for their pistols. https://www.fm.gob.ar/ I have inquired to them about historical data. If I learn anything more, I will post it.
FN Herstal. European military rifle maker. I could find no data online for their guns.
Glock. No letters, but they will confirm date of manufacture on the phone.
Contact info: https://us.glock.com/enGreat Western Firearms. Defunct company that made the original SAA Clone back in the 50's. I found general information online to date my pistol, but obviously, no way to get a letter.
They do have a website: https://www.greatwesternfirearms.com/W.W. Greener. Makers of all kinds of nice shotguns. They used to do letters but don't anymore. Their website does have data listed online to give you dates of manufacture.
Website: https://www.wwgreener.com/repairs.html At the bottom of the page is a link to a document with dates of manufacture.More to come.
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Okay. I'll try to get the project started today. To try to be as complete as possible, I'll even include info for gun makers who don't offer letters, but who will confirm a manufacture date over the phone for you. Over the course of doing all of this, I have "discovered" a lot of interesting facts and resources that can help you date your firearms, even if you can't "document" them. I will share all of this as best I can. It's all quite fascinating. I think I'll go in alphabetical order, just to keep it simple, and provide links to website and so on. I'll probably also break it up over several posts to keep it manageable.
Finally, I only ask that if anyone knows of any way to get information for a gun made my someone that I could find, please, let us know!
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I few months ago, I shared how I was gonna start getting letters for everything in my collection, including the guns of my late father and brother and my nephews. I still have more than a few things to letter, mostly stuff belonging to them, I need them to give me the data, but I believe I have a letter from everyone I can get one from already.
Would people be interested in my assessment of the letter process, perhaps with some (edited) pictures?-
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Well, as long as we are "interpreting" the rules...
From the Handbook.
"Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. The first violation will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty. The second violation will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment. Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location."
To reiterate...
Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule.
I "interpret" this to mean that the rule will never be enforced.
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4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:
Be aware that having the drop 2 mod done to an 87 effectively means that you can no longer stoke the magazine.
Which is why neither my Winchester, which is very old and was tuned up by Coyote Cap to repair age related problems, or my Chiappa, which is out of the box stock, have had the drop 2 done to either of them. I like being able to stoke.
That being said, with both shotguns, I have learned that if you push the carrier down, you can then drop 2 two shells into the action, and be able to cycle both of them. Not as "efficiently" as with a real drop 2 mod, but you can do it.
The Chiappa, by the way, is smooth as silk out of the box and of comparable quality to a real Winchester. Which is probably why it's so much more expensive. But, you get what you pay for. I suppose you could modify it if you want to, but there is really no need to do so. If only they made one with a 30" full choke barrel. Alas... -
On 8/4/2024 at 8:21 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:
I wish my loops were loose!
Let me explain that.
I usually shoot all brass shotshells. The loops hold them more tightly than the do plastic shell, and they are thus kinda hard to pull out. Which is why I often just use a pouch. -
I wish my loops were loose!
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Shooter starts at position 1 with 1 shotshell in hand and shotgun staged on the prop.
At the beep, shooter picks up shotgun and loads the 1 shell and engages the 1 SG target.
With shotgun open and empty, shooter moves to position 2 and places shotgun on prop.10-10-4 sequence to follow.
Never seen such a stage. Not saying it would be good or bad, but if this is what the instructions call for, it would be what you do.
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No harm in thinking, Cotton. That's where ideas come from.
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7 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:
Let's say the event organizers come up with a dozen really interesting side match ideas. (What they are is not important for this) They quickly realize that they just can't pull off all 12 of them for reasons of space, people to run them, or whatever.
6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:and space, time, help...
Gee, I kinda said that... -
Doing more than 2 or 3 "Special" side matches very well could be logistically problematic at the biggest of matches. Then again, when I was at EoT a few years ago, there was at times no one in line for some of the ones I wanted to try, or at most less than 5. Others were very popular and had small crowds. I guess it all depends on how much "space" you have to try these different things in.
Let's say the event organizers come up with a dozen really interesting side match ideas. (What they are is not important for this) They quickly realize that they just can't pull off all 12 of them for reasons of space, people to run them, or whatever. Perhaps the "solution" would be to take a poll, here on the Wire, via a method revealed in the Cowboy Chronicle, or something, to see which ideas generate the most interest, and then pick to top 2 or 3 to stage.
Generally, I have noticed that side match participation seems to have diminished over the years. I don't know why. But I have also noticed that 3 or 4 stage "warm up/mini matches" on side match day seem to be growing in popularity. -
I suppose I should be more specific....
Among other ideas I have had, or things I have seen, include the following....
Using 3 rifles, over a course of fire, a .22, a Main Match rifle and a rifle caliber repeating rifle. If needed, add a shotgun to set off the timer.
A variant of the above could be done with single shots.
I sorta normal 10-10-4 type stage, but in stead, 4-2-5-4. Four pocket Pistol, 2 Derringer, 5 rifle caliber rifle, 4 shotgun
Something to allow for the use of various pre-1900 design guns that normally have a place in our game. Things like pre-1900 DA revolvers, revolver carbines, and a small handful of other stuff. Probably can't find away to allow for everything that existed, but creative thinking could allow for some oddball stuff.
A "Foreign stuff" side match. Things of the era that were found primarily in Europe or other parts of the world.
Something that uses, well, everything from a derringer through main match guns to single shot rifles. This is one I've read about before, but never seen.The only thing that should limit side matches is the imagination.
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Different combinations of guns unusual stuff is always fun.
Speed this, that and the other thing, not so much. -
Good luck finding Red Dot.
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Mine is a .45-60, and that's what I'll recommend.
But here is something I learned the hard way. The chamber size of these modern guns is not the same as the classic version of the cartridge. I found some .45-60 brass with the correct headstamp, and even after running it through the RCBS full length dies, it will not chamber. On the other other hand, .45-70 brass trimmed to the correct length and just run through .45-70 dies chambers perfectly well.
Also, the RCBS dies ever so slightly bottleneck the brass, both the stuff made to original specs, and cut down .45-70. But, it doesn't seem to need to be, as the stuff run through the .45-70 dies does not bottleneck , and as I said, it chambers just fine.
So, if you want to get an original and a reproduction for some reason, be aware of the fact that the chamberings are very slightly different.-
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No. They don't so mark them anymore. Believe it or not, I recall reading that the Army didn't want to be making "instant collector's items" with said markings anymore. As I recall, the very earliest M-17's did have a US or something on them, and the Army politely asked them to not do that anymore. I have seen GI M9's. They are not marked. Dunno about anything else.
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2 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:
The cost of a new revolver these days is 500 and up .
Five hundred? Must be for a clone. A real Colt's closer to 4x that!
Heck, here in Massachusetts, you can't touch a used Colt for less than 2 grand unless it's REALLY beat up. Clones tend to not go up, but they hold their value. When you are limited to things you can prove were registered in the state prior to 1996, (Or maybe C&Rs) supply and demand kicks in hard.
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On 7/21/2024 at 1:48 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:
Having .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders and ammo sounds like a good plan until you arrive at a match with the wrong cylinders in the gun or the wrong ammo. KISS
With my Colt Sheriff's models, which came with dual cylinders from the factory, they are labeled .44-40 and .44 Special quite clearly on the side of the cylinder. That being said, Larsen makes a very valid point.
When I got a .44-40 cylinder for my Buntline .44 Special, I specifically got one in stainless with an unfluted cylinder to be a clear contrast from the nickel fluted on in the factory .44 Special chambering.
IF I ever get .45 ACP cylinders for any of my .45's, I'll either get them nickeled if the gun is blue, or unfluted or something else to give me an obvious visual cue.
With the Sheriff's models, since one is blued the other nickeled, I considered going matching is Special, unmatched is .44-40, but it seems that slight variations in the SAA sometimes require a cylinder to be fitted to the frame it goes in, and since both work in the guns they came with but did not fit in the other, I didn't wanna mess with them. Those I just have to pay attention to.-
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On 7/20/2024 at 10:26 AM, Texas Jack Black said:
What you using for powder?
I used to use Trailboss for .45 ACP. (And practically everything else.) My Dad used Red Dot, and I have his notes, so I'll give that a try.
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I want a custom box for one of my revolvers.
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My own lube practice for cartridges that require it...
Lube
Deprime/resizeTumble clean
Prime
Charge
Seat bullet
Crimp
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What is kg9?
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5 hours ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:
HK
I read about the new restrictions on more "assault weapons", but have not seen anything that would further restrict cowboy guns; what did I miss?
LL
The gun is not a "Mass Compliant" pistol. The only legal way around that is take the gun apart, buy the parts, and do a frame transfer to Massachusetts. One of the provisions is no more frame transfers. Not sure of the particulars, but I think that a frame is no longer a frame, it's a firearm.
The way the dealers were talking to me, they are saying ALL semi-auto's are banned, and that now all long guns have the same kind of rules as handguns and have to be on "the list" to be sold. Of course, there is no list yet, so essentially you can't buy any kind of a rifle or shotgun in the state once this thing goes into effect in early August. Several dealers have told me they are just planning to close up shop. Looks like the Armory in Littleton's days are numbered...
I can't see many rifle or shotgun makers sending in 5 guns to the Commonwealth for destructive testing.
And the CMP is gonna have Krags later this month.
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Just to bring this story to its conclusion.
The 5" American is now safely home with me. I am very happy. And it looks like with the latest changes to Mass gun laws, I got it just in time.
Anyway, here it is sitting next to it's new best friend...
As we all know, legend ascribes the use of a Buntline Special to Wyatt Earp. As reality tells us, he used a S&W American at the Gunfight at the OK Corral. I am now happy to say that I have a Buntline and an American in the same caliber!.
Now all I have to go is go back to Tombstone, visit the OK Corral again, and participate in a cowboy shoot in that town, using these guns. It is a strange dream, but one that will be a lot of fun.-
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Factory letter assessment.
in SASS Wire
Posted · Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
Henry Repeating Arms: We know this company. As I was going through everything, I realized I had never checked for info for my brother's US Survival Rifle. I could find nothing specific on their website for letters or manufacture date, but I did make an inquiry. As soon as I hear back, I'll update the information one way or the other.
Contact info: henryusa.com
Hopkins & Allen Arms Co. Another old timer I could not find information on.
Inland Manufacturing: Division of General Motors that made M1 Carbines during WWII. I could find no data.
Interarms: Virgina based company that made single action revolvers. As near as I can tell, they are gone. Best I was able to do was do a lot of searching and get a date range of 1976-1984 for my "Dragoon," kind of an extra beefy cross between a Colt New Frontier and a Ruger. I could locate no specific data for different models.
Israel Arms International: All I was able to find was that my M1 Carbine was made sometime between 1996 and 2003. I couldn't find anything else.
Ithaca: You can get an Ithaca letter from Cody.
This seems to be a pretty typical Cody letter for all of the things they can provide. Similar to the Colt letter with a no frills.
Cost: $92.00. (Again, with large discount if you are a member of the museum.
Website for Ithaca letters: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/ithaca/
Iver Johnson: I really thought that Cody, or someone, would have records for this company, but it seems that no one does. There are general website like Wikipedia that can give you date ranges for certain models, but no specifics. The modern IJ has no historical records.
Llama: Spanish company that made its own version of the 1911, and who knows what else. I could find no data.
Marlin: You can get a Marlin letter from Cody, as long as it was made between 1881, and 1906, as well as some special "Presentation" Model 39's made in the 1960s. So if you've got a Marlin 60 from 1985, they can't help you. Also, data for some Marlins made between 1969 an 1971 when they were part of LC Smith is also available.
Worthog Arms is who I bought it from.
Cost: $77.00 without regard to if the records are Marlin records or LC Smith ones. Membership discounts apply.
Turnaround, the same same less than two months for all their other letters.
Cody Website for Marlin: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/marlin/
Mauser: I was operating under the assumption that all of Mauser's records were destroyed by the Allies at the end of WWII. While this is true for rifles, records for Mauser PISTOLS do survive. So it if you've got a Luger, Broomhandle or some other Mauser pistol, you can get a very interesting letter from the Paul Mauser Archive. In addition to the serial number, they ask you to provide pictures of the gun itself, and of any and all markings. They then put it all together in a nice .PDF file that you can print at your own convenience.
I found all of this quite interesting. Yes, the last couple of pages are generic and not specific to my gun, but the general information about mine is there, and that's what I wanted. I think it's worth it.
Cost: I don't recall what I paid, it was a reasonable amount of Euros, but if you got more than one, the cost went down per letter. If I remember correctly, the cost of 4 letters together was less than 3 individual ones.
Paul Mauser Archive Website: http://www.lugerlp08.com/Mauser%20pistol%20Certification%20Service.htm
Turnaround: Reasonable. Did not take all that long once I sent them the info.
Merwin & Hulbert: I could not find specific data for these fascinating firearms.
Mitchell Arms: I could not find any date for the Lugers sold by them, other than the fact that they were made in Texas by a company named Aimco.
Mossberg: Does not seem to offer letters or any data to confirm date of manufacture. Even if they did, it wouldn't do me much good. All I'll ever know about my one rifle is that it was made before 1968 because it has no serial number.
Navy Arms has no dates for it's Uberti imports and does not do letters.
Norinco: I could find no data.
Pacific West Arms: Company that made AR style rifles. I believe they are defunct and I could find no data.
Parker: They do letters.
I really like the format. The presentation is not so bland as a Colt letter, and they do provide some general information about other things.
Cost: $100. $40 if you are a member of the PGCA.
Website for PGCA https://parkerguns.org/
Turnaround: A reasonalble timeframe. Don't remember how long, but it was pretty quick, as I recall.
Primary Weapons Systems: Another AR maker that is defunct that I could not find much about other than narrowing down the year that this rifle was made.
Pietta does not do letters
Remington does not do letters or confirm date of manufacture. Which is too bad because a little digging online will tell you that the records do exist. That being said, there are online resources that will allow you to track down some general information. But it's hit or miss as to what you'll find.
RG was a maker of inexpensive pistols. They also made a fairly nice replica of the Remington Derringer. I could find no specific data, only a general wide range of when they were made. (1970-1986) For a company that has, admittedly a well earned reputation for making low quality products, their derringer replica was actually pretty good.
Rossi does not do letters nor confirm manufacture dates, as far as I can tell.
Website: https://rossiusa.com/
Ruger does letters.
As you can see, their letters are pretty basic. But, they are dirt cheap.
Cost: $10.00
Order Form: https://ruger.com/pdf/letterOfAuthenticity.pdf
At only ten bucks, they are the cheapest letters out there. I do not know if they will letter new Marlins made by them.
Savage: You can get a letter though Cody. See the Website for details on what they have available; it's not everything.
Cost: $77.00
Website for Savage Letters: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/
Sig Saur: Does not do letters, but will confirm date of manufacture
Website: https://www.sigsauer.com/
More to come.