H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posts posted by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Will the club that holds what it called a 2 day EoT Warm Up match in Tombstone, Arizona be doing it again next year? Depending on timing cost, I may wish to do that instead. Not the cost of EoT, I know that's expensive and would absorb it. But the cost of HOTELS in Phoenix at that time is.... Rather expensive. It'll all come down to what I can afford.
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5 hours ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:
Take No Prisoners is on there too, under the Long Range tab.
This sounds like fun. I just hope the targets are big enough to see!
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3 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:
The Lever Shotgun starts empty. We require 6 rounds in the pump for the same reason we require 6 rounds for a double that only holds 2. It's called a reload.
Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense.
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1 minute ago, Michigan Slim said:
Interesting question. My grandpa started deer hunting by shooting .45 Colt from a single shot .410. PLEASE, save your opinions on it. Poor folks doing what they had to do to survive. b
So, the .410 is smaller than .45-70. A chamber sleeve, maybe? I'll have to measure the rim diameters to see if the bolt might be compatible.
I figure at the very least, it'd require a rebarrel and perhaps a different bolt.
Might be easier to just go with a smoothbore .45-70...-
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14 hours ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:
Take No Prisoners (description on EOT website) – 16 rounds
Where? Can't find it.
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14 hours ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:
- Pump Shotgun – Start Empty – 6 rounds
- Pump Shotgun – Stoked – 6 rounds
- Lever Shotgun – 6 rounds
Is the Lever Shotgun Start Empty, Stoked, or both?
Why do you require 6 rounds in a gun with a 5 round magazine? -
I know it can be done with the Winchester 1894, they actually make one. But would it be theoretically possible for someone to make a .410 shotgun out of the Winchester 1886? My mind thinks it would be. I doubt anyone ever will, and I am not looking to have one custom modified, it was just a random pondering.
For that matter, I suppose it could be asked of the Marlin that can handle the .45-70 or .30-30, or any other lever/pump gun that could do so. -
1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:
"Jose" Wales?
Ugh... My enemy the typo beast strikes again!
Lotsa interesting ideas. I am gonna try to go to the local Josey Wales Shoot, I've always wanted to try it.
I even know what guns I'll use...
Left pistol, converted Walker. Right Pistol, converted Dragoon. Rifle 1, my "Big Iron" Rifle 2, New Frontier Buntline. Shotgun... If it's a real shotgun, prolly my Parker. If it's a 5th pistol, Uhm... Probably a converted 58 Remington.-
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What do people think of a "Themed Shoot."
Now, anyone can shoot a "Themed Shoot" according to standard SASS rules. But, if the shoot is advertised as a "Themed Shoot" then shooters have the option of shooting according to the theme, and those that do get bragging rights for doing so.
So, what would the themes be? Well, that would up to the discretion of the match director, but it could be just about anything. The idea occurred to me when I saw a shoot advertised as being a Jose Wales shoot, where shooters had the option of shooting it Josey Wales style if they wanted too. That's a "Theme." Or if you make the theme "The 1880's" you would have to shoot at least one gun that was designed in the 1880's. Maybe. This is just a random idea. I am sure creative match directors could actually come up with all kinds of viable ideas.-
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Addendum for Henry Repeating Arms.
I can confirm that they don't do letters, but if you e-mail them with the model and serial number, they will confirm date of manufacture.
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11 hours ago, Yul Lose said:
As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Oy….
Huh?
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Ever since I saw one on the cover of Guns of the Old West, I've wanted a Paterson converted to .38 S&W...
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For what it's worth, I am looking into the FOIA Stuff, and other options from Springfield Research Service. I did a FOIA request for an M1D I bought from the CMP a few years ago because I thought it was the most "interesting" of my military rifles. As far as SRS goes, in keeping closer to our game, I may request a letters for my Krags. Both of them look like they have been modified, and if SRS is still providing, based on what is on their website, they may have records of these modifications. If and when I get anything, I'll report it here, amending in a separate post the Springfield Armory Government entry. There looks to be the following options....
1. Basic Letter for $50 for subscribers, $95 for non subscribers.
2. Basic Letter with Sales Information for $65 for subscribers $110 for non subscribers.Then there is the Detailed Letter.
For no charge, if you are a subscriber you can send in your serial number and they will tell you if they have any data for the detailed letter.
The cost for the Detailed Letter is $175 for initial research, plus another $100 for additional research. Detailed letters are for subscribers only.
For the cost, I don't think I'll go for any detailed letters, but it's clearly worth subscribing to get the discount on the Basic ones. I'll look into this more once my subscription is verified.
Can I request that this thread be pinned? Others in the future may be curious on how to get a factory letter from whoever, and it's all collected right here.
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What a shame! Leave it to California to throw away something that generate tourist revenue for the area, and prolly some money for the state as well.
But... That ain't a lobster. (I'm from New England!)
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Interesting. Looks like it doesn't have a silly safety. I assume half cock notch.
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Reminds me of the 9422, which was a fantastic rifle. But looks a little different. No idea what it's like. Is that a safety above the trigger?
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6 hours ago, watab kid said:
i commend you on wanting to ltter everything you have and your families - ive always felt itr wasa a great thing for collectibles and rare items - so there are maNY OF MINE THAT ID NOT SPEND THE MONEY ON TO LETTER , it is an expense that mostly you cannot be recouped , there are a few that id go for in my accumultion but many id not waste the effort on ,
Yes, this was an expensive undertaking. I can't deny that. Perhaps the cost of 2 or 3 nice Cowboy type guns. But, I felt it was worth it just to have the documentation. It enhances the collection, even if it doesn't enhance the value. If I had it all to do over again, I would have been saving all my receipts and things, and lettering every gun as soon as I bought it. That's something I'd recommend to everyone. There's just something "fun" about looking at a sales receipt from a gun shop that has been gone for 20 years that says you got a band new SAA for $400.00!
In the case of antique and even C&R type firearms, having papers that prove their age and status is valuable too. And remember, everything you own becomes C&R when it hits 50 years, so, that's worth keeping in mind. (Aside in just 12 years, EVERY transferable machine gun will hit at least 50 years of age and become C&R! While still subject to NFA 34 rules, if you have the C&R FFL, you'll be able to cross state lines with them, without permission!) I do think that in some cases, the letters are way overpriced. (Colt!) Now, it is true, perhaps, that everything Ruger has is in a database, while Colt may have to search through dusty old ledgers to get the info, some sort of a premium is legitmate, but charging 80 dollars for a Police Positive and $300 for an 1860, in those same ledgers, is kind of extreme. The way that say, Smith and Wesson offers general info about the model before getting into the specifics on your gun, and notes anything else they might know about the gun at no additional charge, is a big plus in their favor. Other providers run the range from bare bones to the more fleshed out presentation. It is what it is, I suppose.
To me, having a letter that enhances resale value is a moot point, but I do believe that having the documentation add a bit of legacy to them for my heirs some day. I get a real enjoyment of seeing my father's signature on a Mass State registration form, for example. Or his name on a hand printed bill of sale. Even a cash register receipt adds something, so yeah, keep all that useless paperwork. You'll never regret doing so, and might regret it if you didn't.
And if I ever get around to getting a Mini-14, not only will I letter it, I'll be sure to save all the gunsmith receipts for when then customize it to make it truly look like a miniature M-14. But what do I know?-
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The pump action shotgun? Early ones were good, later ones were crap. Current ones, I don't know.
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1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:
Yup, I have been collecting Winchesters and Colts for a bit over 50 yrs. I do not use Cody alone .I have a 38/55 94 about new with the original sales receipt from Winchester to local hardware store then to my Great Grandfather dated 1897 .
Cody letter said 1901 Winchester says 1897. BATF says 1897
That is a big deal to a collector.
Best Wishes
Oh, that's a huge difference, one with serious legal questions. I guess this shows us why having as much information as possible is important.
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2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:
When did they do that? when they folded.
I have access to a copy of the early Sn # lists from Winchester that were provided as date of manufacture to the government and Cody seems to use there own . ATF uses the Winchester manufacture dates not the Cody dates.
Quite a mess
Well, let's clarify a few things. Winchester, who does still make ammunition, has not made a single gun since 1983. (Some sources say 1981) Ever since then, they have had other people make guns for them using Winchester's name and designs. Most importantly was US Repeating Arms Company, who kept right on making them at the original Winchester factory in New Haven, Connecticut. That plant was shut down, and USRAC stopped making guns. USRAC went belly up in 1989, and Fabrique National got the rights to make Winchester guns. That started in 1990. They finally closed the old Winchester plant in 2006, I think. Through FN came the Browning connection. Today, the right to make Winchester guns is in the hands of Browning. They make through Miruko in Japan and FN in Belgium. I don't believe they make anything domestically.
Anyway, Winchester sent its original records to Cody in, I believe 1990. Browning told me they have records from 1993 in, but there is this black hole of mystery between 1990 and 1993 where a lot of the records are missing.
Yes, I have noticed differences between what you get on the When Was my Winchester Made website where you put in the serial number, the number ranges in that PDF file that lists models and serial number ranges, and sometime what you'll get in your Cody letter. Usually it's not a major discrepancy, but it does happen. The same can be said for the Colt serial number lookup on their website and what you get on your factory letter. Usually there is no difference, but at least 1 letter I got from Colt was off 2 years from what the lookup thing gave.
So, why the differences? Human error is highly likely. The only thing that can really have any "authoritative" accuracy would be the original factory records. Every other source would have to be sourced from them, but errors in transmission are all but unavoidable.
At least, that's my guess...
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2 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:
As for Berettas, they should have a date code on them. Somewhere, I have the way to decode that. I will look for you.
The "easiest" way to date a Beretta is, if you have the original box, look on it. It'll have the date listed. That's how I dated my 92FS. Don't know how long they've been doing that.
Yes, I have read about some of the date codes for Italian guns. They have these weird symbols and proof marks that tell you when they are made. Very confusing! -
3 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:
Are you lettering the Winchesters using Cody or Winchester? The dates are not always the same. ATF uses Winchester and many collectors use Cody .
Best Wishes
Winchester doesn't letter guns any more. They sent all of their records to Cody. Modern Winchesters made by Browning would be lettered by Browning.
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Sorry for being rather stupid on the following...
With regard to the FOIA stuff, what form are we supposed to fill out, where are we supposed to send it, and what exactly are we supposed to ask? -
Smith and Wesson: They do letters, and I think they provide the best ones out there. Price and turnaround are very good.
As you can see, they give a lot more info. Specs on the specific gun, general information about the model, and if there happens to be extra data about it, they tell you and don't charge extra. About a third of the letters I got from them had 2 pages of information, and even though two of them were the same model, the "general" part was not the same. One letter even came with a copy of the original factory invoice of the people who bought it. The rest were only one page. It is interesting to learn that this pistol was originally owned by someone from Boston, since I am from the suburbs of that city, and that he was a champion shooter. Also, there was no reason why they had to send that article from American Rifleman, but they did. The only thing they did not know about was the was the frame is stamped R.F. ENEWOLD under the grips. But even that is interesting. I learned he was famous gunsmith out in Reno. Oh, if this gun could talk! One other general note. S&W also offers a "Deep Dive" letter on certain specific models made a certain times that they may or may not have much more detailed records for. None of these letters I got are Deep Dives, but I have requested them for the ones that are eligible. If anyone out there has a Deep Dive letter, what's it like?
Cost: For a factory letter, $100. $90 if you are a member of the S&W Historical Foundation OR the S&W Collector's Association. $75 if you belong to both. For a Deep Dive letter, cost depends on what they find.
Turnaround: Very reasonable. About 6 weeks or less.
Website for S&W Letter: https://swhistoricalfoundation.com/letters/Springfield Armory (US Government): This one is a little complicated. They don't do letters, nor will they look up a serial number for you, but data for when the guns were built does exist, and is collected on the Springfield Armory's website. You can, for example, look production information for just about every model of rifle made there, and see where the serial number on your gun fits into the numbers they have. For example, one of my Trapdoors was made between July and September of 1884. Some models you can get down to the month and year, others just the year, others a 2 to 4 year range. But at least you can learn the dates. If you purchase one, today from the CMP, you get a certificate of authenticity that confirms it's a former service rifle, and when you purchased it, but not when it was made. There is also the Springfield Research Service, but I have not yet used them. They are on my list to see if they still do letters. Their website has not been updated in years. Website says letters are for members only, but there is an option to get a letter for non members.
Springfield Armory Website with serial number data: https://www.nps.gov/spar/learn/historyculture/firearm-serial-numbers.htm
Springfield Research Service Website: https://usmartialarmscollector.com/
Cost: $35 to join SRS. Letter cost advertised as $50 to $175 in one spot, $50 to $110 in another.Springfield Armory (Commercial): They don't do letters, but will confirm a serial number over the phone, if they have a record of it.
Website: https://www.springfield-armory.com/
Stevens: This one is also kind of complicated. The last time I checked with Cody, they told me that the Stevens records seemed to have gotten lost when Savage sent them out. They were hopeful, but didn't know if they'd ever have anything. When I was double checking things for this post, I saw that they now do claim to have some records for Stevens firearms. As of this writing, Cody says they have records for the Stevens 520 shotgun, but that's all. I plan to call them to see if they have anything else that has not been sorted through yet.
Cost: I could not find a listed price for a Stevens letter on the Cody Website
Website for Stevens seems to be same as for Savage: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/
Tula Arms Plant: Russian/Soviet Arsenal. Makers of, among many other things, Nagant Revolvers.
I can't find an active Website, but there is a Wikipedia page.Uberti: Does not seem to offer letters or dates of manufacture themselves, or through their importers.
Websites are as follows...
Uberti: https://www.uberti-usa.com/
Cimmaron: https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/
Navy Arms: https://navyarms.com/
Taylors: https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/
W. Richards: SxS Hammered Shotgun maker from way back. Could find no information.
Webley: British maker of revolvers, auto pistols and really expensive shotguns. They do letters. Note that these come on A4 sized paper, not 8-1/2x11, so you'll need appropriate sleeves for them if you plan to put them in a binder.
In addition to the Letter, you get the green data sheet, and possibly invoices or serial number lists that detail info about the purchaser, if any exists.
Cost: 25 British Pounds for database details, plus 6 Pounds if outside the UK.
29 British Pounds for invoice details, plus 6 Pounds if outside the UK.
If memory serves, I got a small discount for ordering 4 at once. I recommend paying with credit card and not by "cheque" to make sure you get the best exchange rate.
Website: Arms Research https://www.armsresearch.co.uk/
They have info for guns made by Webley & Scott, Wilkerson Firearms and even Wilkerson Sword. The sword records do not include info on bayonets.Turnaround was very quick from what I remember.
Winchester: Cody has records for historical Winchester, including stuff made by US Repeating Arms at the original Winchester plant. This includes records for Winchester made M1's, Carbines and M1917 rifles. So this would be a way to get a letter for a US Service rifle, if they made it. Browning has records for things made since 1993. There is a small gap in the records that neither Cody nor Browning has. There are also random gaps in the existing records for pre and post 64 Winchester stuff at Cody. For example, no one has any records for the 9422.
Websites are as follows...
Cody Winchester Records: https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/winchester/
Browning Winchester Records: https://www.browning.com/support/faq/firearm-historical-information.html
Cost: Cody Letters go for $40 to $77 depending on what records they have. Letters for the Winchester 21 go for $92 to $122 depending. There are the usual discounts for being a member.
In case I have not made it clear, the discount for being a member is rather substantial.
Browning Winchester letters go for (I assume) $39.95. I don't have anything made by them, so I can't confirm.
Other resources that may be helpful are as follows.
This page is an online serial number lookup. All it gives is the year. Not everything will come back.
https://winchestercollector.org/dates/
This page has a link to a PDF file that lists dates of manufacture, including things that Cody has no records of. https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/faq/date-your-firearm.html
Between these two, you can at least find the year of manufacture if Cody or Browning has no records.Zasttava oruzje: Makers of post WWII K98 Mausers in Yugoslavia, imported by Mitchell's Mausers. Mitchell gave a certificate of authenticity, but I could find no factory info of any kind.
Mitchell's Mausers website seems to be gone.And that's all I have. I hope you found all of this to be of value.
Oops! Almost forgot one.
North American Arms: Makers of really small .22 revolvers.
No Letters but they will confirm date of manufacture over the phone.
Contact Info: https://www.northamericanarms.com/If anyone knows of anyplace where date data or complete records for factory letters may be found by anyone else, please let us know. I already appreciate the info that people have posted about 1911's.
Let the commentary begin!
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EoT Warm Up Match in Tombstone?
in SASS Wire
Posted
So that would be 21st and 22nd of February, right?
Is it a 2 day shoot, or two 1 day shoots back to back?
Do you have to pre-register, or just show up?