H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posts posted by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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One of the side effects of our game is that many of us tend to become collectors or the various guns that are used in our game. After while, you start to "categorize" your collection by things like caliber, maker, and so on and so forth. And the longer you do this, the more you realize that there are many different ways to group your different guns.
Something that I not too long ago came to realize is that you can sometimes group your guns by the "gun family" that they belong to. For the sake of this post, I am going to define a "gun family" as being a group of guns that have at least a "family resemblance" or that more specifically are all built around the same action. There are several obvious families of guns that could fit this criteria. I am going to define the members of the family in the following manner:
Shotgun: A smoothbore gun, usually shoulder fired, any gauge.
Rifle: A shoulder fired gun that fires a cartridge that can not be fit into a normal sized revolver.
Carbine: A shoulder fired gun that fires a cartridge that can fit into a normal sized revolver.
.22 rifle: A shoulder fired gun that is chambered for a .22 rimfire cartridge.
Pistol: Pretty self explanatory.
Now, some families will actually have members that fit all five types of guns. Some families will only have 2 members. Others will be somewhere in between. There are families that are single shot guns. and others that are repeating firearms. There are families that can consist of more than one option in the five categories, that can be made up entirely of "original" guns, and some that may require a mixture of vintage and modern replicas made by someone other than the original maker, or be made up of "all clones," so to speak.
So with that in mind, let me start with one of the families that I have that has a member in every category.
The Remington Rolling Block.
From top to bottom we have the following...
Shotgun: 12 guage.
Rifle: .45-70
Carbine: .32 S&W (Started life as a .32 rimfire.).22 Rifle.
Pistol: .22LR.
All are original Remingtons.Anyone else care to share some of your families that you may have? I'll post more of mine in a bit.
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19 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:
Rossi , Henry . Smith&Wesson , Ruger lol 🤣😂
The Rossi was news to me, as noted above; They do seem to be a fairly "accurate" replica of modern Marlins, right down to the crossbolt safety, which of course is not what I am looking for.
The Henry is its own gun. While it does have some similarities to the Marlin, I would not really call it one.
The Smith & Wesson 1854 does seem to be more like the Marlins than the Henry guns. But to me, they seem to be a cross between a Marlin and a Henry.
Ruger...
Well, technically, Rugers ARE Marlins. Just like the guns make in Japan are Winchesters.
So, in answer to my original question, it looks like the answer is no. -
I'd love to have a 30" F/F hammered double. (NO screw ins) It'd be a nice alternative to my hammerless Parker in the configuration.
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5 hours ago, Timothy said:
No but id be first in line for an 1881 cmon cimarron!
Yeah, I'd like one of those too, in .45-70. It seems like all the ones you can find on the used market are .40-60 or .38-55. I suppose the latter wouldn't be too bad, as you can get brass and stuff.
I've got an 1888 in .32-20. Sweet shooter. -
3 hours ago, JP McLintock said:
Rossi makes 336 and 1895 style rifles
I did not know that. And, wow, they even make a Mare's Leg, albeit in a "tachticool" configuration.
But, just like the Rugers, they have a crossbolt safety.
Oh well. -
6 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:
Oh, you gotta trim those cases to 1.850(47mm) and call it a .45-47…
I don't believe in the metric system. It does not exist.-
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As we all know, there are replicas of the Winchester 94 on the market with no safeties and top eject. These are in "competition" with the ones made by Winchester in Japan with all of those features.
Does anyone make a replica of any of the Marlin rifles to compete with the Marlin's made by Ruger?
I know Chiappa is marketing a .22 that bears a visual resemblance to the 1897-39A family, but I am talking something a main match caliber. -
30 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:
Vermont is July 18-20
New Hampshire is August 15-17
I type corrected. I thought NH and VT had a combined match. Seems that is not the case. I could swear they used too, and I know went to it one year. But maybe I am mis-remembering and it was just NH.
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On 6/4/2025 at 3:56 PM, Waimea said:
So, does Maine have their own match?
I am trying to come to grips with a tri-state match but the host state isn't one of the three.
As Bugs Bunny would say
Eye-row-knee!
Have a great match!
Yes, Maine has its own match. It's in a few weeks. NH/Vermont also have a combined one.
There were more people from NH than any one state at the shoot.
There were more people from outside the Tri-State area than from within it!
As to why the shoot was held in Maine, it used to be held in Massachusetts. To oversimply things, recent changes to Massachusetts gun laws make it illegal for out of state people to posses a firearm in Massachusetts, unless they have a Massachusetts Licence to Carry Firearms. This made it a crime for people from CT or RI to come to the shoot in Mass. You can pass through, but you can't stop.
There are of course some additional details, but for the sake of this event, that's the relevant part in a nutshell. -
Oh, I agree that from a practical standpoint, the Mares Leg type pistol has none whatsoever.
But from a FUN standpoint, you can hardly beat them.
I really need to add this one to the above picture...
That's am 86, made by Chiappa, with a 16.6" barrel., and yes, it's a .45-70, but it will work with the cartridge on the left, a .45-70 cut back to .45 Colt length. I call it the .45-45.
If the SHORT act passes, this barrel will shorten to just in front of the takedown lever, and the 73 (A Taylors with a 16.5" barrel, will likely shorten to 12"And if the SHORT act passes, maybe a "real" Marlin Mare's leg would be in the making. I don't know.
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For those who are interested in a Mares Leg type pistol, I discovered something today.
From time to time, I visit the website of the various makers of guns for our game, and today, I clicked over to Chiappa. I was surprised to see a link to this on their home page...
https://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/920.441/la322-t-d-bandit-
Now, while I don't know know how "close" it actually is, this gun really looks a lot like a Mares Leg version the Marlin 39A.
The call it the Bandit 322, and while it is only at the moment available in .22RF, I can't help but remember that the 39A is a direct descendant of the 97 which in addition to being a .22, was also available in .32 Centerfire/Rimfire back in the day. (The Centerfire in question being .32 Short and Long Colt)
Anyway, while I saw nothing on the website to suggest the possibility, with a name like "322" maybe they have future plans to consider a .32 caliber version of the gun as well. Would be kinda nifty if they did. Probably be .32 S&W not Colt, but that's be fine with me.
But even if they only make it as a .22, this is probably the closest we will come to a Marlin Mares Leg anytime soon.
I thought I'd share this info for anyone who might find it to be of interest.
For the record, yes, I know Mares Leg type pistols are not allowed, but many of us do find them to be of at least peripheral interest.
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2 hours ago, La Sombra said:
Question: For a multi-state match is anyone declared the "state winner" in their category? For instance, you shoot the Tri-State match and win your category and are from Rhode Island, are you both the Tri-State champ and the Rhode Island champ? Just curious....
La Sombra
(Who has no need to return to "New England". My wife loves it here.)
There is a Massachusetts winner, a Connecticut winner a Rhode Island winner and "Tri-State" champion.
Now that you ask, I don't know if you have to be from one of the three states to be the champ.-
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2 hours ago, Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 said:
I tried to purchase some tumbling media at a large commercial outdoor store (in Hudson, if you know you know) and I could not purchase it without a FID or LTC from Mass. Crushed corn! And if you think the MA 135 gunlaw is bad, look at what RI is trying to pass.
Wow... I had not heard about this one.
What's RI trying to do? -
11 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:
I'm told you can if you take the training and get an FID card.
If you need the FID (Firearms Identification, good only for long guns) or the LTC (License to Carry, good for pistols as well as long guns) to buy bore butter, that would indicate that the commonwealth considers it to be ammunition related in some way. In addition to needing the have the "gun permit" to buy live ammunition, you also need it to purchase things like primers, bullets, powder, percussion caps and shot. Oddly, I've never been asked to show it for buying brass, but out of state vendors have asked for copy of it for that as well. You even need it to buy a BB gun, BB's or pellets. Not sure about paintball guns and ammo.
What is bore butter, btw? I'd assume it was some sort of black powder lube or bore cleaner, but I honestly don't know.
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For the record, I have done well with factory ammo with a 230 grain bullet, and my reloads with a 200 grain one.
I did the tests with 5 rounds in the magazine.
Well, the Lighting had all 10 at the shoot, of course. I may experiment further will 10 rounds at upcoming shoots. I'll let you all know if they initial test holds.Based on the, limited, comments so far, I wonder if some of this is luck of the draw, or when the rifle was made or by whom. My ASM 92 for example has has had an action job. It needed one like nobody's business. It was unusable out of the box.
The 66 and Lightning are both stock.
Fun how things that seem pretty straightforward on the surface have so many more variables when you start to discuss the details. -
Well, it's been a week since the MA/CT/RI Tristate, and for me, one of the highlights was the 3 stage "mini match" held the day before the two day main match started.
It was the highlight because I shot it clean. Yeah, three stages clean is not a big accomplishment, but it's something.
Now, for guns I was using the .45 Schofield cartridge. Pistol 1 was a "Third Model" S&W Schofield, chambered of course for that cartridge. Pistol 2 was an Uberti Schofield in .45 Colt and my rifle was my trusty AWA Lightning in .45 Colt, which handled the shorter round absolutely flawlessly. I found the round to be very pleasant to shoot, milder than the Colt round, but not by much. Granted, I am sure that if I was shooting either round anywhere near original full power specs, that the difference might be more noticeable.
Anyway, all of this got me thinking. It is obvious to me that you can shoot the Schofield round in just about any revolver chambered for .45 Colt. But what about rifles? It worked properly in my Lightning, which has had no modifications of any kind. But what other rifles, if any, could handle the Schofield round? So, I did some experimenting to see if it would work in any of my other rifles.
Here's what I discovered.
Armi San Marco 92. It worked. Worked well in fact. Could run it as fast as I could, so that's a success. This did not surprise me because I had previously found that .45-60's ran just fine in my Winchester 86 in .45-70.
Uberti Burgess. This did not work. The rounds did cycle through the action, but they did not line up properly to chamber. I had to manipulate by hand to get them into the chamber, so this was essentially a failure.
Uberti 66. To my surprise, this worked flawlessly. Given the well documented difficulty that others have mentioned with the Cowboy .45 Special unless you have some modifications done, I expected that to happen here as well. But it didn't. It worked with no problems. I assume this means that the cartridge would also work in a 73 or a Henry.
And those are the only rifles I have in .45 Colt to test the Schofields in. But, I know there are other rifles chambered for .45 Colt that exist in our game. Has anyone tried running .45 Schofield in any of them, and has it worked? I'd be curious to know.
About the only advantage I can see to this is the ability to not need as much powder as you do for .45 Colt, and given how scarce some of our most popular powders are, and how expensive the ones still available have become, stretching the powder might be an important consideration for some of us. -
22 hours ago, Barleycorn Outfitters said:
Haven’t heard anything about a 30” variant.
Too bad. I'd love a 30" full choke version.
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16 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:
One year at Winter Range (vending, not shooting) I bought the 32-20 brass from the scouts.
.32-20 is one of the calibers I shoot. Used it at the Tri-State last weekend. It's a favorite caliber. But I would never shoot it at a lost brass match for the following reasons...
1. Brass (and ammo) are hard to find, and expensive when you do.
2. Seeing the brass to pick it up can be tricky. I usually get a couple or .38's mixed it without even noticing it.
3. Most of all though, I never buy used .32-20 brass, only new. All too often, when I get used .32-20 brass the previous owner will have trimmed it shorter for some reason. When I am reloading, I of course set the bullet to crimp in the crimp groove. But whenever I get used .32-20 brass, there is about a 50/50 chance that it'll crimp behind the crimp groove, a little over the width of the groove. This is "irksome." I used to sort my brass, looking for the shorter stuff that I would reset the dies for after finishing the untrimmed stuff. But this proved to be tedious. After a couple of cycles of this, I didn't bother, loaded the long and short stuff the same way, and then put the short stuff in separate boxes, used it in my revolvers only, and then discarded it after shooting it. I would not want to risk getting a whole buncha short brass again. Yeah, .32-20 is a relatively rare caliber, but at a huge match, there's likely a few shooters, and all that brass would get mixed together. Who knows what I'd wind up with. -
You clean plastic hulls?
I've got AA's that are over 60 years old, reloaded countless time, and have never been cleaned prior to reloading.
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On 5/12/2025 at 10:06 PM, Buckshot Bear said:
I have lucked out and got many many years worth of freshly made and imported Red Dot.
Where'd you get Red Dot?
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Y'know, it doesn't have to be at EoT or some other big match.
If a club can offer Josey Wales at a local monthly, then this rifle thing could be as well.
Or if it's at something like EoT, it would probably be a 1 stage side match.
As far as getting the 3 rifles to the line goes, the only "example" I can offer is how some local clubs here in New England occasionally do what they call an "Iron Man" Match. 2 rifles, 4 pistols and a LOT of shotgun targets on each stage. Usually a 3 stage match, with just as much shooting as a normal 6 stage one.
Anyway, one or two others on the posse always help with carrying the guns. -
Check out this picture...
Now, you may be wondering why I've got this brass sitting next to my New Model 3 revolver.
You may be wondering what good it is being the same length as the revolver's cylinder.
Well...
It's actually the correct brass for this gun! The .38-44 of the late 1800's was developed for use in this specific revolver. (It should not be confused with the .38-44 of the mid 20th century that was the forerunner of the .357 Magnum.) This original .38-44 was an elongated .38 S&W. With the brass being the same length as the cylinder, the bullet was loaded down in the case. The theory was that their would be much less of a "jump" to the barrel, thus resulting in greater accuracy. Since this gun/caliber combo set a lot of accuracy records, some of which I have read still stand, I'd guess that S&W was onto something.
Anyway, normally I just shoot .38 S&W ammo in this gun, and it works just fine. I'd always wished I had some "real" ammo for it though. Sadly, finding vintage .38-44 brass is not an easy task, nor an inexpensive one. And forget about finding vintage factory ammo. I've seen people asking $500 for a box of 50. I don't want it THAT badly.
Anyway, I found someone selling 54 loose cases on Gunbroker. Was asking $75 or best offer, so I offered $60, and it was accepted. I think that's a pretty good bargain for this rather rare brass, and much less expensive than other cases I have seen there.
And, I recently found someone who actually makes dies for this caliber. I am looking forward to loading it up with some black powder and shooting it.
I just wish I'd could find another pistol in the caliber. Oh yes, you can still find New Model 3's in it for a reasonable price, but I am hoping for something else. Fortunately, there is a Colt Bisley on Gunbroker right now in the caliber. Unfortunately, the minimum bid is $19,000 dollars. I will not be buying this gun! There's also a flattop SAA in .38 S&W, but it's asking price is $13,000 and change. I'll be passing on that as well. I have read that when Colt was making these guns, that they usually stamped the .38-44s as .38 S&W for some reason. Yeah, I'd settle for a Colt in .38 S&W, a few were made, and if it turns out to be a .38-44 lucky me. If not, I can still pair it with this gun, just using the shorter cartridge.
Anyway, I am most pleased to have finally found some brass in this odd caliber. I'll look for more, but I doubt that I'll get this lucky again. I'll also experiment to see if I can use my regular .38 S&W dies to load the cartridge. If not, I'll get the dies for it.
Oh, yeah, some folks have said that you can make usable brass out of .357 Maximum brass trimmed to length, (Magnum is too short.) but I don't wanna go down that road. It just doesn't sit right with me. For one thing, the .357 brass would be undersized, and I just don't wanna go there.-
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I don't think it'd have to be a lost brass match. Just based on what I see at matches, I think all the brass could picked up in a reasonable amount of time. And, unless everyone's doing it, which won't happen, it won't add that much total time to a posse's run. (I think.)
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Not too long ago, I started this thread...
To be honest, I over thought it, made it far too complicated, and tried to bring up too many ideas as once. That was my mistake. I also had far too many typos and spelling errors in my initial post.
I don't want to rehash what I was trying to say, and not doing a very good job of, in that thread, so let me start from scratch, and see if I can make any more sense.
We all know that Josey Wales is an unofficial pistol only version of our game. Someday I hope to try it.
With all of that as background, what about an all rifle event? There are a couple of ways it could be designed.
Rifle stays the same.
Pistols become either a second rifle, or perhaps a .22 rifle. Could be shot at the pistol targets or repeat the rifle string as safety and match director decides.
Shotgun stays the same or perhaps becomes a "long range" rifle (94, 86, etc) with alternate targets at the back of the shooting bay.I guess "shotgun" would always have to be last.
And that's it. Trying to keep it simple. Last time I over complicated my thoughts, and looking back over the original thread, it doesn't make much sense to ME, so I can imagine that it musta been off putting to others. I think this is simpler and easier to contemplate.-
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Gun "Families"
in SASS Wire Saloon
Posted
When I did the conversion from RF to CF, the gunsmith asked me if I wanted to expand the chamber for .32 S&W, or leave it as .32 Colt. Since at the time I had nothing else in .32 Colt, I had him expand the chamber. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have, but I don't regret it.
More to come...