Nate Kiowa Jones #6765
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Posts posted by Nate Kiowa Jones #6765
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The TTN part will work in the originals too.
I still have many of the TTN parts.
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Warden,
you still need colt 1878 parts?
BTW, that W. Richards is Belgian.
Here's one I did awhile back,
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Most any will work. Some better than others. The most challenging is removing stuck nipples. So, I built this one from a small 1/4" drive socket notched to fit and to be used with the 1/4" square drive to 1/4" hex adaptor into an impact driver. I have even used it on original CB guns with good success
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I won one of those and I sure wish it worked as well as in the video.
Yep, had one of those Frankfort's too. Hung up way too much.
So, when the Hornady came out I bought it. It works pretty good and the Dillon tubes fit it, too.
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It would appear that the rule quoted from page 4 allows titanium hammers as that material is not specifically prohibited for replacement parts.
Thanks PWB
Good to know. I always run on the assumption that it was still not allowed.
Just to clarify, would this Titanium part need to be approved by SASS?
The reason I ask. From SHB page 4
Just because a manufacturer
designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm was available, does not
necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as
allowed are approved. All others are illegal.......................................................................................................................for SASS Cowboy Action Shooting™. Any
firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited.
As written it would appear the material may be allowed but the actual part may not be allowed.
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Titanium firing pins are allowed and available. A titanium hammer would probably not work very well.
You are correct. I forgot about the marlin firing pins. Titanium hammers do work and much faster too.
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The only specific "material" reference related to replacement parts I was able to find was re revolver cylinders:
"Cylinders must be made of steel or iron only."
SHB p.8
So titanium hammers and firing pins would be allowed?
Like I said, IIRC before the Firearms covenant there were rules barring such thinks.
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SASSmandated standard weight parts? That's a new one for me.
I am curious who this shooter is.
From the Shooters handbook version 21.8k
Page #3
"Any
firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited."
Page #4
"Replacement parts may be made from materials other than the original unless such material is
specifically prohibited."
I don't have the time to chase down the specific rule but before there was the Firearms Covenant lightweight materials like Titanium and such was not allowed. I don't think that has changed .
As for who, I would never mention a name without the persons permission.
What you are describing is personal timing. Heavy springs etc are bandaids.There are a couple guys commenting on this thread who achieve shot splits that cannot be measured on a timer on CAS steel. I know at least 2 of them don't depend on heavier springs to do that.And being a World champ and the like has less to do with shots splits and lock time and more about surviving for 3 days mistake free as possible.
Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.
I agree. But, lighter parts would be a bandaid too.
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Sorry have to disagree, locktime not a factor in CAS.
In my opinion the lock time argument is a sales gimmick and nothing more. I have seen some very lightly sprung guns run extremely fast. I am not saying that it's not possible to outrun ahammer with a light spring, but if there are shooters who can they are damn few and I have not met any.
Sorry, but lock time can be a factor. I know of at least one multi world champ that can out run the hammer fall of a revolver to a point that if the hammer fall is really slow he will actually be moving to the next target before detonation causing misses. To improve locktime you have two options. Lighter components like hammers and firing pins or SASS mandated standard weight parts and heavier springs.
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Up to three things is/are broke.
That is a schematic of a single action. Look at #12. That is the bolt/cylinder stop. There are two legs sticking back. One of those legs rides on protuberance on the other side of the hammer. It is a cam and as the hammer is cocked it raises a back leg causing the bolt to pivot and drop down and release the cylinder. The cam like protuberance is shaped so that just before the cylinder indentation gets to the bolt, the leg falls of the cam and the bolt pops up and stops the cylinder.
Since the bolt will not drop I will cross off #19 (trigger and bolt spring) since it seems it is doing its job. One of the legs on the thing we used to call a stirrup is broke or the cam is worn.
Yep, I too am betting it's the bolt finger broke off or the cam on the hammer worn away.
Would those be the older AWA Peacekeeper or Longhorn models. Those were all made with ASM early 1st gen style parts and were notorious for going out of time. The early bolt fingers were real pointy/sharp and the cams were soft so the cams wore away regularly.
The new AWA's are much better. They are made with Pietta parts they all have pressed in hardened cams and 2nd/3rd gen bolts with a more rounded tip.
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Prays for the Parson
get well David,
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Except the existing chamber on that .45-70 barrel has a diameter of .504, leaving the liner hanging in mid air at the bolt face end of the chamber.....
Good luck, GJ
That's not too big for a liner.
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PBT,
Is this a stock Rossi 92? Stock 92s are know to deform the case mouth of 44-40s during the ejection process.
Easy way to test for this is to remove the ejector from the bolt and then insert an empty case into the chamber by hand. Close the bolt and then open it. It will extract the case but not eject it.
You can remove the ejector without removing the bolt by removing the pin holding the bolt to the lever. The ejector can be removed from the bolt and then the pin can be reinserted to allow the action to cycle.
This damage is one of the reasons NKJ developed his spring kit.
This will also let you see any case deformation caused by a piece of case lodged in the chamber by eliminating the ejector as a source of damage.
True that. Back in the early 90's when I first started working the Rossi it was because of this very issue, the 44-40's being the worst. Back then, 44-40 brass was hard to find. You had to buy new 44-40 ammo, as much as $35 to $40 a box and save the brass for reloading. The problem was the Rossi 92`s were so stiff and the 44-40 brass being thin walled, they would crush the case mouth destroying the brass. I had to figured out how to make them work without ruining the brass. The key is to refit the ejector so it will work with a lighter spring. The Rossi spring was so stiff it would crush the case mouth as the case was extracted. For the other cals it would launch the brass in to low orbit never to be seen again
Just talked to Nate and he said he could have saved me a lot of post.Just got to order the parts.Thanks again for the help.
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If you aren't looking for extreme accuracy you might want to look at having your current barrel relined to 30-30. Less expensive for sure.
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Something that is really important but not mentioned. The Stoeger single select triggers can be problematic. Their two trigger guns are adequate. But, many folks have had problems with the Stoeger single select triggers. They either fail to fire one side or the other or worse, they fire both barrels at the same time.
If you are set on a single trigger SXS get the SKB.
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Has anyone converted a Winchester 94 for 30 30 to 38 or 45. I wouls like to get an idea if this is possible with out a ton of work what would need changing beside the barrel and lifter.
Thanks WW
Even Winchester couldn't seem to convert a 94 to 38/357m. The 44/45 Win 94's do OK but I have had several of the 38/357's here because they are jam-o-matics. Built too loose to work consistently.
For those of you that have one that actually works consider yourself lucky.
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Welcome, Rocky Crisp!
I will roll with McCandless here and throw in my 2 cents on your selections.
Rossi 92 - good choice. Shoot it a bit before getting all "slick up" crazy. Also, just know a (edit 16") Carbine only holds 8 rounds. Most SASS Match stages call for 10 rifle rounds fired but you can load on the clock if you really really have to have a Carbine
the 20" barrel holds 10 rounds and the 24" holds 12 rounds in pistol cartridge ammo.I don't know anything about the Taurus.
The Traditions revolver is a Pietta revolver and they are made in Italy. If you like that revolver I know that Cabela's has them on sale until Dec. 24th at $50 off plus, I believe, they are reduced on top of that.
I have never fired one so I cannot help you there but I will say that if you are on a budget these would probably work nicely until a later date, should you wish to upgrade or get that gun buying bug that seems to afflict everyone in this game.
...Oh, and by the way, Don't let that "Made in Italy" scare you. If that meant "low quality" Taylor's and Co. wouldn't put such a high price on their offerings, I am sure.One thing you will learn quickly is when you ask for advice here you will get it...
Ah yeas... like Pat Riot said... you might want to go with '92 Rifles instead of a Carbine... reloading on the clock each stage gets to be a pain. I watched a pard do that with his Winchester '94 carbine. Most stages will require 10 rounds in the rifle. Very few 9 round stages and I've only seen one 8 round stage. Personally, I like the front weight of Rifle better, less movement when placing follow-up shots on the same target, and not too heavy to swing easily to other targets. Just personal opinion... all my rifles are octagonal barrel 20"
The 20" octagon seems to be the most favored, for sure
I bought a Rossi '92 .45 Colt carbine from Nate with his tuning and it held 10 .45 Colt rounds. Sold it a few years back, but I'm sure it held 10. I would agree that if you have limited funds and don't reload, a .38 would be less expensive than .45 Colt.
The 20" carbine or the 20" octagon rifle will load 11 in the tube.
As for the revolvers, these two belonged to Lazarus Long shot before he passed. Lorelei brought these to me to sell for her.
American Western Arms Ultimate SAA - 357 GA# 14305265
American Western Arms Ultimate SAA - 357 GA# 14305267
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It just needs to be fitted.
Think about this. You go to an auto parts store for a part expecting that part to bolt right one. But, the first thing they will ask you is what make, what model and what year. In the case of the Marlins which have been made since 1880's, much of that info is not available. So there will always be possibility it won’t drop right in. As a gunsmith the best you can hope for is a part that is too big. You can always whittle it down to fit.
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I started shooting single action pistols with one hand 50 years ago and never gave a thought you needed two. After all, John Wayne and Matt Dillon only used one hand. When I started SASS, I shot duelist, then switched to double duelist then gunfighter.
I don't think one gun and grip style is necessary superior to another. The human hand is very adaptable. I shot Colts and Uberti clone of Colt. Then I put the Runin' Irons hammers in my Cattleman 45s and that seemed to help with my cooking on my weak left hand.
Then last summer in some fit of insanity, I collected up the above pair of Rugers. I have at least average size hands to large and the birdshead grips seem to fit inside my hands well. The grips are a bit bulbous and slick in hot weather.
Good choice for Duelist. The lowered hammer spurs make one-handed cocking much easier. you might consider thinning the grips some and add some checkering.
The two in the middle here are my favs for dualist. The Bisly hammers, and checkered thunderer grips don't slip.
I don't understand why people think you need a gunsmith to make non-Ruger guns work. I have been shooting Cimarron/Ubertis hard for quite a while and they are out of the box stock and the only problem I have ever had was a broken bolt/sear spring which is a quick 5 minute repair.
What we are doing with these guns is racing and like racing cars there are things that are more important than slick or fast. The fastest car on the track doesn't win if it can't finish the race.
The ruger lock works were designed in the 1950's. It is nothing like the colt style lock basically unchanged since 1836.
Comparing Rugers to a colt SAA or Colt SAA clone is like comparing 60`s muscle cars to model T`s.
Expecting to be competitive for the long haul with an out-of-the-box stock gun is not likely to happen.
I've said this many times. You can take the family sedan to the track once or twice and run hell out of it, but if you do it on a regular basis, you gonna look up and see you crankshaft in the rear-view mirror. Race cars have to be tuned to race, so do guns that are raced.
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My Marlin is chambered in 41 mag. I'd use it for anything up to moose and the big bears. Unfortunately, a heavy bullet (260 gr hard cast WFP) with a whole lot of W296 hurts me almost as much as what I'm shooting at.
Howdy NOZ.
I know the feeling. I load up my non-SASS .45 Colt ammo with heavy 250-300 grain slugs and a healthy dose of LilGun.
As I have mentioned before on the Wire, these hot .45 Colt loads in a 16.25" 1894 Marlin generate power levels equal to the .454 Casull in a 6-7" pistol barrel. And its puts a whoopin on my shoulder.
..........Widder
On occasion I have to site in one of the 454's I've sold. It always reminds me of the saying some of the 50 cal guys use.
"Marginally better behind it than in front of it "
Have any of you tried the Hornady FTX LeverEvolution round in .45? Have you loaded the cartridges your self with the FTX bullet? I have shot the factory load in my 7.5" Vaquero. I was impressed with the accuracy at 25 yards and it wasn't punishing at all to fire.
Hornady make some really accurate pistol bullets. I have shot the 45lc ammo and loaded some 357 and shot it. Good stuff.
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Nate-Good points and thank you for the time to post that!
One thing about the Marlin 94, is the size of the locking block's contact area.
The block is the width of the receiver. The block itself has far more mass the the 2 blocks used by JMB.
The deal is-They both will take any psi thrown at them.
Respectfully,
OLG
No, and mass has little to do with the strength. It's the design.
When it come to pressure the 92 is superior. It will handle 25% more pressure than the marlin 336/1895 and probably 30% more than the 1894.
Bottom line is you will never see a Marlin chambered in 454 casull. At least not for long.
I have a 20" octagon bbl'd Rossi 1892 and a 17" octagon bbl'd Marlin 1894, both are in a "rifle" configuration, (no barrel bands). Neither is as strong an action as my 1885. All are in 45 Colt, all are more accurate than I am. What NKJ said about the relative strengths between the Marlin & Winchester designs.
True that.
The 1885 was JMB's first design sold to Win. Browning had been making that gun since 1875.
(I got to handle an original JMB 1875.
)In it's modern configuration, as in the Browning 1885, it can be had in 300 Win mag!!!!
No-Neither is that susceptible to spreading.
The main reason JMB went with the 2 piece bolt lock was Marlin's patent.
Same means to an 'end'.
OLG
Where do you get this info? Browning had already developed the twin locking bolts in the 86's. The 1883 Marlin didn't even have a locking bolt. The tip of the finger lever is all that held the breech bolt in place. That's why it died off coming into the Smokeless era.
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No facts to back up his claim.
Both will far exceed SAAMI psi specs.
I'll stick with my Marlin 94's
Much easier to take down and repair along with cleaning.
With nothing but highest respect to JMB. I swear, that man must have loved puzzles.
If you ever take apart an '86, '92, or a '94. You'll see what I mean.
OLG
Let’s talk traditional levergun pressures. Top end for a 30-30 is at about 40,000 PSI. The 44mag top end loads see about 40 to 45,000 psi.
For the other pistol cal leverguns that’s the top end limit. But Rossi chambers their 92’s in 454 Casull. The Casull ammo can see upwards of 60,000. That's 308 and 30-06 pressures. Not even Marlins 336/95 action will handle those pressures. The Rossi 92 actions are doing fine at those levels.
The reason the 92 will handle this pressure is because of two things inherent in it's design. First is the twin locking bolts. The other leverguns like the marlins and the 94 win have single locking bolts that come up behind the breech bolt and are turned flat with the thin side toward the breech bolt. Under load it flexes much like a 2x4 used as a pry bar does when you use the flat wide side down. The 92 has two locking bolts turned to the narrow side so the wide portion doesn't flex.
Next is the angle of engagement of the two. The single locking bolt gun has to have the locking bolt laid back at a much more severe angle in relationship to the breech bolt. If it were more perpendicular the action would seize up when fired. So, once the pressured reach the 50,000 point or so, the action tries to fly open. The 92 on the other hand with its twin locking bolts which disburses the pressure over more area, are positioned more toward the perpendicular which helps to prevent the action from trying to fly open.
On a side note, Freedom Arms, the folks that deleloped the 454 casull did some testing using a Marlin 336/95 style action
chambered in 454 Casull. After a few rounds it actually pushed the breech bolt over the locking bolt out the top of the receiver. They probably had the lever tied so it wouldn't fly open.
The Winchester 86 is a strong action too, but I think the 92 is stronger because it has a frame web just behind and below the locking bolts that ties the two side of the receiver together. The 86 doesn't have that web.
This is my 24" octagon converted from 45lc to 454 Casull. I built this one because the round barrel carbines are just too light. The gun will do 2 MOA at 200 yds. But, I can't. I have a friend that has good eyes and a tree stump shoulder that can do it with full power Casull ammo. For me that just too punishing. I have it sighted in at 75 yds with Buffalo bore's +P 45lc's
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Each gun is different enough that the only way to find which will be "most accurate" is to try the load in your son's gun. Sometimes the loading manual makes a suggestion that turns out to be best in one of my rifles. Often, though, another powder works better for my gun.
The data in loading manuals are only compiled from firing loads in one test barrel (in this case, the one barrel that Nosler has). And often that "test firearm" is not a hunting gun, but a test fixture.
Good luck, GJ
About 20 years ago CAI offered sporterized 6.5 Swedish Mauser's. Most were either Carl Gustav or Husqvarna. They came on a ADL type synthetic stock and were D&T-ed for scope rings and had a cheap 3x9 scope on them. All for under $200 each. So, I ordered 6 or 8 of them. I knew I was going to keep one for myself so I took them all to the range with some cheap PMC ammo and shot them all for groups. Most where 3 to 4 MOA but of those guns there was a Gustav that even with the cheap ammo cheap scope and the original 2 stage trigger consistently shot 1 MOA or less. Guess which one I still have.
Point is you gotta shoot it to know whatcha got.
Marlin Owners Beware
in SASS Wire
Posted
Unless the two piece firing pin is replaced with the one piece the Lever actuated trigger block is a secondary safety. The hammer can fall but the gun will not fire if the lever is even slightly down.
The lever has to be fully up to lift the locking bolt in place behind the breech bolt. But, at the same time the locking bolt lifts the rear portion of the firing pin inline with the front part of the firing pin. Only then will it fire.