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Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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Posts posted by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

  1. It's a very common problem when the Uberti factory does not machine and deburr the mortise (rectangular window cut) in the frame just behind the loading gate.  Badly cut mortise edges hold the rim of the last round inserted into the magazine at an angle, with the rim kicked out toward the loading gate  (that "last" loaded round does not really get into the magazine, it remains in the carrier until the action is cycled after loading)    With that round sitting angled inside the carrier with it's rim caught in the mortise cut in the frame, the carrier is locked so that it cannot rise when you work the action.  Thus, the gun is jammed.  Sometimes jiggling the lever causes the round to slide forward into straight line alignment within  the carrier block.   Sometimes pressure from the other 9 rounds in the mag tube is so great, jiggling alone will not push the round straight.

     

    A finger tip or a wood dowel inserted into the loading gate CAN be used to give the base of the round a nudge forward and left (away from the loading gate) after you insert the last round.  Usually it will stay straight in the carrier once pushed forward slightly and straightened.  Sometimes, it won't - just depends upon how badly shaped the angled edge of the cut in the frame has been made.    What is needed is about a 45 degree angle on the top edge of the window cut (mostly).  That angle pushes the rising round forward slightly, off the frame and into the carrier block.  Problem is much worse with 9 or 10 rounds loaded, as pressure from the mag tube spring on the other cartridges press that "last" round into the top edge in the frame.

     

    Here's a good description of the problem with the "loading gate mortise jam" and how to fix it.   I've done many, and every fix (takes about 15 minutes after disassembling the rifle to get access to the frame) has solved the problem of the gun jamming when working the lever after filling the magazine.  

     

    http://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info/

     

    Read the one-page article named:  "Model 66 & 73 frame modification to improve feeding of the first round"

     

    This mortise jam is not caused by ammo length.  1.500" up to 1.600" rounds CAN fail to let you lever in the first round of a loaded magazine. 

     

    One can see that if the OPs poblem was "too short ammo", then there would be jams on almost every round except the very last round to come out of the mag (where there is no following round to get in the way of the carrier rising).

     

    Where a too-short length cartridge CAN cause problems is with part of the second round in the magazine partially coming into the carrier along with all of the first round.  If the carrier fails to rise simply because of that "next" (second) round sticking back onto the carrier, you either will need to load to a longer OAL on the cartridge, or modify the "return ramp" on the front face of the carrier to push the second round back into the magazine as the lever raises the "first" round up to the chamber.  I am surprised, though, that you can cycle a non-tuned rifle with a cartridge length of 1.500" - so perhaps your carrier (lifter) has already been "resloped" to allow short cartridges.   Most of the factory guns will start to jam with the two-rounds-on-carrier problem at about 1.530" OAL cartridges.

     

    good luck, GJ

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  2. That's what is commonly recommended, and what I use, too.

     

    Probably could cut the Murphy's soap back, but then it won't smell so good!

     

    Only mix what you will use over a week.  Store out of sunlight or use opaque containers. 

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 1
  3. "Fitting" in the business  often means making the stock fit the shooter.

     

    You need inletting (and perhaps refinishing) of a partially prepared stock.   MOST gunsmiths "of the old school" are well experienced in doing such work.  Not the latest parts swappers, though.

     

    For a really fine restoration level job, I'd drop that gun off with Lonnie at Run-n-Iron on your way back north next spring.  They are in  Bertrand, NE.

     

    Examples:

    http://www.runniron.com/restoration/index.html

     

    good luck, GJ

  4. I use PAM (hydrogen peroxide, rubbing alcohol, and Murphy's oil soap) mix to clean.   Spray from a bottle down the tubes.  Wait 5 minutes.  Fold 1/4 of a paper towel and push that down each bore with rod and jag.  Spotless, and the oil soap protects the clean steel of the barrel from rusting!   Lots safer than vinegar - will never take the bluing off.  And the mix will clean and polish the wood, too.  Don't even need a brush if the paper patch is snug. 

     

    For me, it's less work than cleaning smokeless, less smelly, and certainly easier loading and tighter patterns than with fiber wads.

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 12
  5. Quote

    "During the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved/legal holsters"

     

    This rule for me takes precedence over the strict 170 rule for the acts of drawing and holstering.   Drawing from holster is explicitly allowed if muzzle is within 180 - an exception to the 170.

    No such written exception is in the rules for reholstering.  (An oversight, I believe) So, I take the practical route and call it as if there was one for reholstering. 

     

    As to the forward cant holster prohibition rule, that seems to have been removed some time ago.  Thanks for clarifying, Griff.

     

    good luck, GJ

  6. A rule that is written real tightly (170 degrees at all times), and with no exceptions stated, is one that is hard to be real rigorous when enforcing it, when in practical application, it can't be followed (or measured) precisely.  I use a guideline of "if it is heading back to the holster, then allow the shooter to do what is comfortable".   Our prohibition of forward slanting holsters helps to make sure the muzzle is not aimed up range (back towards the posse).  

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 1
    • Confused 2
  7. 1 hour ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

    But why did the Marlin just keep going?

    Pivoting carrier in Marlin, sliding carrier in toggle guns.  LOTS more moving surface area in a toggle gun to bind up on the frame.

     

    good luck, GJ

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  8. Just got some Nobel Sport 688 primers delivered from Precision Reloading, at about 6.5 cents each in 5000 qty.   These are 209 size, and reported to work like Winchester and Cheddite.  Too bad American primers are MIA.

     

    good luck, GJ

     

     

    • Like 1
  9. One thing I learned a LONG time ago - never think two different guns will shoot the same lead cast bullet to the same accuracy.  I have no problem with 200 and even 175 grain slugs' accuracy in .45 Colt guns, which are most of what I have for Cowboy shooting.  Lead bullets seem to have a mind of their own about how well they want to shoot.  I have quit arguing with them - they are "too hard headed"  - and just listen to what each gun tries to tell me.  :lol:

     

    I will say that when shooting 100 yard "long range" matches, I throw in some loads with 230 grain slugs and more velocity than my usual match loads.

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 1
    • Haha 1
  10. Make 5 loads with your current setting, then if still shaving lead or having bullets not auto-sit in the bell, you can slowly add a little more expansion and make 5 more.  Stop when it works perfect. 

     

    The more expanding you do, the shorter the case life can be (almost no one anneals .38 spl to relieve the belling stress).  And the more attention you have to pay to make sure your crimping reduces all the bell for easy chambering of the loaded round.

     

    Bell diameter measurement alone won't tell you much, it's going to be relative to what your bullet diameter (and even hardness) and the shape of the expander button.  Bevel based bullets need less belling than square base (flat) bullets.  So, too many variables if you try to measure your way to the right answer.  Try loading a few and slowly work up to success "in the real world". 

     

    good luck, GJ

     

     

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  11. In some states, lead weights have been prohibited within the last few years.  There are lots of zinc, lots of lead and some steel wheel weights right now.   Just depends upon where you are.

     

    good luck, GJ

  12. 11 hours ago, I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 said:

    Did you have your forcing cone lengthened and polished?   

    No part of the fired round goes into the forcing cone of the barrel.  Not even the crimp as it unfolds.  Tuning the forcing cone will not help with sticking shells.  It MAY help reduce a little felt recoil, though.  Even with a gun with a chamber of minimum length and a hull of maximum length, firing will only put 0.010" (ten thousandths) of the tip of the hull onto the very beginning of the forcing cone.  A standard forcing cone has a length of 0.43".   So, no real chance of a more tapered or smoother forcing cone "preventing" grabbing the petals of the hull - there was nothing to grab in the first place.

     

    Now, if your shotgun was made with short chambers (made before the standardization of a 2 3/4" chamber in about 1926),  then extending the chamber could make an improvement in how the gun extracts modern hulls.

     

    More honing of the chamber, when it is already smooth and pit free and has a proper slight taper, rarely makes an improvement in extraction.

     

    Quote

    problem with AA hulls when I first started reloading, turned out to be too much wad pressure.

     

    I had problems with Win AA HS hulls sticking in double barrel guns when loading real light loads with a wad that was not well tapered for the "inserted base wad" that the Win AA HS hull uses.  If your loads have a bump around the hull about 3/8 inch above the end of the brass head cover, that ridge was what hung up shucking of AA hulls.  The ridge seemed to come from the skirt of the wad jamming into the top of the base wad insert in the hull, especially if using a lot of wad seating pressure and a small powder charge.  Most times the skirt slipped into the base wad.  Sometimes the skirt plowed outwards into the hull and raised a ridge.   (I changed over to only using Remington STS hulls, and got rid of most hard-shucking if I keep the chambers fairly clean).

     

    good luck, GJ

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  13. 3 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

    a low melting point.  Easily melted on a hot plate at its lowest setting or a hot air gun.

    Well, that will melt any lube, even the hardest smokeless, which melt at around 220 F

     

    150 F is where you want to test.  That is "just hot enough it's a little uncomfortable to continue to hold onto"

     

    A hair dryer on low heat would be a better way to tell.

     

    good luck, GJ

  14. Watch for those mushroomed (nail head) loads.   If you are using a progressive MEC, or most other progressive loaders, the "finish" taper crimp die is designed to return that mushroom back to a factory rounded and tapered mouth.  Generally, it uses a crimp starter with no petal teeth in it to squeeze evenly all around the mouth.  Like is used to start a crimp on a paper hull.  

     

    I have finish-taper dies on the last station of all my loaders, and they work real well.  But if adjusted too deep, they buckle the loaded round.  So, adjust a little at a time.

     

    If you already have bunches loaded, then you need a hand checker-tapering tool.  Looks like a chamber checker for 12 gauge, but it's tight at the mouth and with some twisting and hand pressure, you can smooth out a loaded round - even right before you start to shoot a stage.  Well worth having.  Here's one that a lot of pards have:

    https://www.slixprings.com/proddetail.php?prod=SliX-Shotshell-Checker-Sizer-Combo

     

    See - it's so popular another pard posted about it while I was typing. 

     

    good luck, GJ

     

     

    • Like 1
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  15. 28 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

    Brass unlike steel is work hardened,

    No, both brass AND steel work harden.   Bend a steel wire or can lid several times, it gets hard and then fatigue breaks.   The bending creates many extremely small cracks in the crystal structure of both of those metals.  Initially those small cracks just add to hardness of the metal.  But with enough bending, the cracks join together and the metal breaks at the stress fracture point.

     

    Brass can be re-softened (annealed) at a much cooler temperature than steel, though.  That is what case annealing does - it allows the minor cracks to heal up and join back into normal crystals.  Thus the brass is soft again and ready for more work deformation before it breaks.

     

    Limit annealing on a bottle neck case to JUST the neck, though.  If you soften the shoulder, the case will collapse with very little neck tension against the bullet during seating.

     

    good luck, GJ

  16. Sure enough is.  He's kinda closed down his business, but you might catch him for some of his "old" stock.

     

    A hard paraffin wax lube is certainly one made for smokeless bullets. 

     

    Some sort of BP lube would be what casters use on most Big Lube bullets, since they are made for black powder shooting.   There of course are many varieties of BP lube.  SPG being just one of them.  Can't really tell by color that has been added to a lube, though.  Most BP lubes will be low melting point, so testing for melting in an oven set accurately at 150 F could give you a hint. 

     

    good luck, GJ

  17. I have no problems getting sealing with that dual-sizing ring sizer die with 6.0 grains of WST under a 200 grain Accurate 45-200E TC mold, making 8 BNH bullets. 

     

    Quote

    bullet we used was a commercial,

     

    Commercial casters use 12 to 16 BNH alloy usually.  Sounds like you have been using alloy hard enough that cowboy velocity and pressure loads won't make bullets seal the bore well, which also means pressure can't build up enough to seal the brass against the chamber wall.   8 or 9 BNH is all the hardness needed for cowboy loads.  But for that soft a bullet you may have to cast your own, or see Desperado bullets in Oregon.

     

    If a 250 grain bullet solves the problems, you are close.   Annealing the cases would probably fix the problem, too.

     

    good luck, GJ

  18. 1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

    Toggle-link guns don't get it in your face

     

    Well, I've got a couple that do spray gas and dirt back in your face.  So, I size my .45 Colt cases with a dual-sizing ring Redding die.   It tightens the mouth but does minimal sizing on the lower 2/3 of the case.   Thus, it fills the chamber a lot better and I can run 200 grain bullets sized .452 without the blow-back.

     

    That same sizing die solves a Marlin 1894 gas blow-by problems for a couple of shooters that I recommended to.

     

    good luck, GJ 

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  19. I've chamber cast some Marlin 1894s made in .45 Colt, and found oversized chambers.  The SAAMI specs are very generously sized already, because this is a very old cartridge with lots of ancient precedent of chamber size.  But on top of that, the chamber was reamed another 3 to 5 thousandths larger than the max (which is 0.4862" at the base end datum, and 0.4806" at the mouth).    Combine that with the very thick cartridge case walls typically used, which will not expand with typical .45 Colt chamber pressures, and blow-by is a common problem with these pistol-caliber rifles, regardless of the maker.  Cowboy loads with light charges and light bullets make this problem even worse.

     

    Yes, visual monitoring of the gas squirting up from the barrel breech / bolt junction is excellent proof of blow-by.  Can usually be seen with eyeball when standing to one side of shooter.   A video of it - even better and makes a record, too.

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 3
  20. A couple of evenings opening and closing the action will loosen it up enough to please her, if that is all that is all of your concerns.  Even a little toothpaste in the hinge socket and hinge pin will speed up the "final fitting" of the hinge.

     

    Used to be the factories polished that hinge socket after machining so the gun would almost drop open.  (Yeah, 50+ years ago.) Now, you can't pay the factory to do that.  They all claim, "well, we didn't want to polish all the years of life out of the gun."  When, it really saved them $5 of labor.

     

    But, tuning up a double is not hard work.  A local gunsmith ought to be able to do the work if you can tell him all you want slicked up.

     

    I'd second Ken Griner in Farmington NM or Boomstick Jay (Leonard, TX) for being closer to you than many.

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Thanks 1
  21. If the firing pin extension wobbles when it is extended backwards (action open), then the frame opening for the FPE can be worn and even egg-shaped.  MANY shooters never lube their FPE and over the years, the fairly soft Uberti frames wear from the travel of the FPE.

     

    To test, open action.   Push up on the tail of the FPE.  If it moves more than about 1/8", it's worn and looser than normal.  The FPE then sometimes binds as the hammer hits it, and looses a lot of energy, thus a very light hit on primer.  Fix is kinda tricky,m but I've heard of some smith's that install a sleeve in the frame to tighten things back up.

     

    Also check that the junction between the FPE and the firing pin is snug, not worn to point of being sloppy.

     

    good luck, GJ

    • Like 2
  22. Check that springs behind the stops are still functioning strongly.   If you can compare to another 97 it sometimes help to spot a weak spring or damaged stop.  Check that pivot screws are tight.

     

    Sometimes the stops wear where their "pressure points" contact the carrier.  Then the carrier can't open the stops fully and the cartridge stops part way out of tube.  Perhaps the gun may need to be tuned by a good 97 smith to add back enough metal to get the stops working again.

     

    good luck, GJ

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