WTC: strange ammo carry position

[Diamond Jake]

I saw someone using this method at a recent match (not the exact holster, but using the holster loop) and it lead to an interesting discussion between several experienced shooters.  I know the Shooters' Handbook says that it's legal to carry and use ammo from a "Holster Cartridge Loop", but I think using the Holster loop on this type of holster might be stretching the definition a bit.

 

The bullet is using a "loop on the holster", but it isn't a loop specifically designed to hold ammo.  Is this legal to use for rifle reloads?

Edited Friday at 04:16 PM by Diamond Jake

[Griff]

Quote

Cartridge Belts, Bandoleers, and Pouches
- Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement). Modern drop pouches, combat style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.
- Ammo loops on bandoleers may not be oriented vertically (up and down) when/as worn.
- Pouches shall have a flap and must carry their contents loose, with no special provisions to organize the contents for rapid retrieval.
- Cartridge loops must not have a metal or plastic liner. However, the entire loop may be made of metal.
Ammunition Belts and Loops
- Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.
- Use of ammo from cartridge loops mounted on a firearm’s stock or forearm is not allowed.
- No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.
- Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt.
- Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.
- Shotgun ammo loops may not accommodate more than two rounds per loop, and rifle/revolver ammo loops shall accommodate only one round per loop.
- Shotgun Ammo loops must conform to the shooter’s contour (i.e., not tilt out from the belt).
- Shotgun loops must be in a single row.
- Rifle/Revolver loops cannot be affixed to shotgun loops.
- Rifle/Revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotgun/shotshell loop.
- Laterally angled cartridge loops on belts and ammo slides are allowed.
Note: Any ammo carried to the stage in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties.

My off-the-cuff answer would be "No."  As per above:  "Shotgun ammo loops may not accommodate more than two rounds per loop, and rifle/revolver ammo loops shall accommodate only one round per loop."  But, if it's not used, who cares?  I don't believe you can define that as a "cartridge loop."  I looked up "cartridge loop" in the dictionary, and didn't find a single picture of that as an example.😉

 

 

[John Kloehr]

11 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

... it isn't a loop specifically designed to hold ammo.  Is this legal to use for rifle reloads?

I think not. From page 3:

 

"

Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must

be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop,

holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage

instructions.

 

"

[Sedalia Dave]

According to pg 3/4 of the SHB that would not be legal as it is not an actual cartridge loop.

 

Ammunition Belts and Loops

 

- Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.

 

- Use of ammo from cartridge loops mounted on a firearm’s stock or forearm is not allowed. - No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

 

- Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt.

 

- Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

 

- Shotgun ammo loops may not accommodate more than two rounds per loop, and rifle/revolver ammo loops shall accommodate only one round per loop.

 

- Shotgun Ammo loops must conform to the shooter’s contour (i.e., not tilt out from the belt).

 

- Shotgun loops must be in a single row. - Rifle/Revolver loops cannot be affixed to shotgun loops.

 

- Rifle/Revolver ammunition may not be carried in a shotgun/shotshell loop.

 

- Laterally angled cartridge loops on belts and ammo slides are allowed.

 

Note: Any ammo carried to the stage in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties

Edited Friday at 03:57 PM by Sedalia Dave

[John Kloehr]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

My off-the-cuff answer would be "No."  As per above:  "Shotgun ammo loops may not accommodate more than two rounds per loop, and rifle/revolver ammo loops shall accommodate only one round per loop."  But, if it's not used, who cares?  I don't believe you can define that as a "cartridge loop."  I looked up "cartridge loop" in the dictionary, and didn't find a single picture of that as an example.😉

There is also "Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design."

 

Agree at least in principle it does not matter if it is not used, but there is also this express prohibition whether the ammo is used or not: " No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice."

[Apache Gunsmoke Dan]

But it's not a colon, it's a comma.

 

So it's "on the shooters person [comma], in a bandoleer, etc"

 

To me it reads that if it's on the shooters "person", but not in a location prohibited in either sections of SHB. If it's an issue of not enough gear to support an extra round, I don't see that as being an unfair advantage over other shooters (IE, if starting position was hands on hat, at the beep, load one rifle round and engage rifle targets, having the round tucked into his hat band might be seen as an unfair advantage). I might be speaking out of turn (still relatively new), but to me, that's how the SHB reads.

Edited Friday at 04:18 PM by Apache Gunsmoke Dan

[Stump Water]

37 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

Is this legal to use for rifle reloads?

 

Nope.  Doing so will earn you a P and a miss.

 

SHB Page 19.

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

I have 3 cartridge loops on each holster's loop from Kirkpatrick. I verified that it was legal before I bought the rig. I've still had it questioned over the 15 years since I got the rig. Not always in a friendly manner! But there's always been enough folks around to support me! Thankfully it's only been a few times!

 

I agree that the scenario presented in the OP would be illegal however.

[Stump Water]

18 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I have 3 cartridge loops on each holster's loop from Kirkpatrick. I verified that it was legal before I bought the rig. I've still had it questioned over the 15 years since I got the rig. Not always in a friendly manner!

 

Carry SHB page 3 in your gun cart.

 

Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must
be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop,
holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage
instructions.

[John Kloehr]

33 minutes ago, Apache Gunsmoke Dan said:

But it's not a colon, it's a comma.

True, which does open up a lawyerly or engineer "close read." The construction can be interpreted as a list of options, concluding with an "or" option based on stage instructions.

 

A different read of it is "on the shooter's person," followed by a list of examples meeting this requirement, then the "or" phrase separates this for other off-body placement per stage instructions. This second interpretation, while not correct from a lawyer or engineer perspective (where a ":" would make this clear), is reasonable since the list of options are all on-body.

 

Hopefully does not need a new rule or clarification, but something led to that body-orifice prohibition.

 

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I asked PWB about some variations like this.  Placing a  cartridge sideways in the belt tongue keeper, or putting one vertical in the belt in the center between where the tongue goes into and out of the buckle (if you can visualize that without a pic) are also not legal.

 

Long ago a lot of people were keeping an extra in their hat band.  Also not legal.

[Stump Water]

16 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

something led to that body-orifice prohibition.

 

Stage calls for a reload.  Shooter carries the reload in his mouth (hanging out like a cigarette) or in her cleavage.  Saw both... a long time ago.

 

Not "all the time" locations for carry, but when the stage calls for a reload...

.

.

Edited Friday at 05:21 PM by Stump Water

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Not a dedicated cartridge loop, so I say not SASS legal. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I asked PWB about some variations like this.  Placing a  cartridge sideways in the belt tongue keeper, or putting one vertical in the belt in the center between where the tongue goes into and out of the buckle (if you can visualize that without a pic) are also not legal.

 

Long ago a lot of people were keeping an extra in their hat band.  Also not legal.

 

Here's the photo:...ruled ILLEGAL in 2017

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

THIS is the applicable statement regarding any "creative" method for carrying ammunition (including up yer nose or in yer ear):

 

Note: Any ammo carried to the stage in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the “Use of illegally acquired ammunition” penalties.

SHB p.4 (emphasis added)

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

Stage calls for a reload.  Shooter carries the reload in his mouth (hanging out like a cigarette) or in her cleavage.  Saw both... a long time ago.

 

Not "all the time" locations for carry, but when the stage calls for a reload...

.

.

I hope you were referring this to be illegal. SHB PG 3 "No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice."

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

I hope you were referring this to be illegal.

 

Yes.  I was replying to John's statement that...

 

4 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

something led to that body-orifice prohibition.

 

[Chantry]

19 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose, cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.

Where is my vodka mind bleach!

 

On edit:  Things like this are one of the reasons the game isn't as fun as it used to be.  Too many people trying the slightest things to gain a competitive advantage and too much arguing over the rules for what should be a non-issue

Edited Saturday at 11:55 AM by Chantry

[Arth Ritis]

Also relatively new but my understanding outside of the expressly forbidden if it isn't used it is costuming and legal. Not legal to reload from though.

[Texas Jack Black]

8 hours ago, Chantry said:

Where is my vodka mind bleach!

 

On edit:  Things like this are one of the reasons the game isn't as fun as it used to be.  Too many people trying the slightest things to gain a competitive advantage and too much arguing over the rules for what should be a non-issue

As I said many, many years ago WE WOULD SELF DESTRUCT and here we are. The numbers do not lie. SAD.

[Chantry]

49 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

As I said many, many years ago WE WOULD SELF DESTRUCT and here we are. The numbers do not lie. SAD.

 

Nonsense.  SASS may self-destruct, but it won't because of this issue.   

 

The real problem is we have far more people leaving cowboy shooting, at least here in the Northeast, than joining.  This is aggravated by the high cost of getting into sport.  Starting from scratch, how much does it cost?

 

I'm guessing between $3000-$4000 for non-gunsmithed guns, leather, a gun cart and ammo, more so for those that don't reload.  I don't see the bargains on the guns that one used to see in the late 1990's.

 

 

 

[Arth Ritis]

I would nudge that number up higher while not wanting to scare folks away.... I had cowboy boots, hats, some powder, some shot, some primers, and a shot gun coming in. Purchased used rifle and a great deal on two used pistols stock. Used leather and a new shotgun belt. Used gun cart was nearly given to me. And that hit about 3k without including the shotgun, attire, or any ammunition. I don't know how you can reasonably play this game without reloading even if independently wealthy would likely need to hire someone to do your reloading for you if you had slicked up primer specific guns. Luckily I had been wanting to get into reloading for decades and expected to with this sport/game. And that ignores the cost of licensing/club membership/advocacy memberships often required for club membership/storage and transport requirements.... I mean can you shoot your first match for less than $4,000 I could but I had been involved in shooting for decades prior and I still have spent quite a bit more than that in less than 6 months... but that includes now being setup to reload brass and shotshell, an outfit, and a set of spare pistols. Someone fresh off the street who never shot before likely couldn't get involved for 4k.

[Griff]

As someone pointed out a long time ago... almost any leisure time activities is expensive.  Priced what it costs to start drag racing recently?  ...bass fishing?  ...Water skiing, snow skiing, golf, heck even bowling can cost thousands per year if you pursue it as a serious hobby.  I have 2 old street rods...;  & just parked they cost more per year than a new rifle.   Cowboy shootin' is CHEAP in comparison!  

[Chantry]

7 hours ago, Griff said:

As someone pointed out a long time ago... almost any leisure time activities is expensive.  Priced what it costs to start drag racing recently?  ...bass fishing?  ...Water skiing, snow skiing, golf, heck even bowling can cost thousands per year if you pursue it as a serious hobby.  I have 2 old street rods...;  & just parked they cost more per year than a new rifle.   Cowboy shootin' is CHEAP in comparison!  

 

I agree completely, any hobby or leisure activity, if taken seriously, gets expensive.  I just don't see very many new cowboy shooters under 50 these days.