What's the call ?

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

At a match this Sunday we had a stage with 2 position, Rifle, pistol with reloads on the clock.

  A shooter was moving from position 1 to position 2 right to left and pulled is left hand pistol before turning down range, sweeping everyone on the unloading table, to me braking the 170 rule, stage DQ.

  Asked a cub RO, said it was OK if he didn't cock the hammer.

What are your thought ?

  Rob

  

[wyliefoxEsquire]

RR Rob,

The RO need to take a class.

Please contact me.

-wylie

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Nope,  breaking the 170 degree rule and sweeping folks is a SDQ or MDQ

Shooter's handbook, page 23 & 24

If Unloaded, SDQ

"- Violation of the 170° Safety Rule/Failure to maintain appropriate muzzle control"

 

If loaded, MDQ"- Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm."

--Dawg

Edited September 7 by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

[Lucky R. K.]

If the pistol was loaded, I would say MDQ.

Lucky 😁

[John Kloehr]

21 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Nope,  breaking the 170 degree rule and sweeping folks is a MDQ

Shooter's handbook, page 23 & 24

If Unloaded, SDQ

"- Violation of the 170° Safety Rule/Failure to maintain appropriate muzzle control"

 

If loaded, MDQ"- Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm."

--Dawg

This, in absolutely clear language. ^^^^

[Cypress Sun]

 

C(L)ub RO needs a refresher course in SASS rules and firearm safety rules in general.

[Toranado, SASS # 58447]

The act of "pulling your left hand pistol before turning down range in itself is not breaking the 170 or sweeping someone.   You can do it safely keeping the barrel pointed slightly down and down range tilted,  as some "leeway" is given during the act of holstering and unholstering.   If he actually did sweep and break the 170, different story, but also I have seen many a stage setups where the loading and unloading tables are even with the props and if the shooter is 1 or 2 steps back,  normal drawing or reholstering, may in fact sweep a loading or unloading table but not break the 170.   In my opinion, you have to be there and see the situation to make the call, but the reason "it was not cocked" is not justification.

[Griff]

From Penalty Overviews, SHB, Ver 28, pgs 23 & 24:

Stage DQ:  "Violation of the 170° Safety Rule/Failure to maintain appropriate muzzle control."

                      "Sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm."

 

Match DQ:  "Sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm."

 

While two accumulated SDQs warrant a MDQ, I believe that they should be in separate incidents.  

 

 

Edited September 7 by Griff

[John Kloehr]

I still have a nagging question on this subject... Why do  we have one rule (penalty) for an unloaded gun and another with a stiffer penalty for a loaded firearm?

 

It is counter to the principle of always treating every firearm as if it is loaded.

[Griff]

32 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I still have a nagging question on this subject... Why do  we have one rule (penalty) for an unloaded gun and another with a stiffer penalty for a loaded firearm?

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say is has to do with the potential injury.  An unloaded firearm is likely to only scar your sensibilities... whereas a loaded firearm could lead to far more serious injuries... 

[John Kloehr]

19 minutes ago, Griff said:

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say is has to do with the potential injury.  An unloaded firearm is likely to only scar your sensibilities... whereas a loaded firearm could lead to far more serious injuries... 

Possibly, and understandable. I just can't read it without thinking it turns:

 

Always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.

 

Into:

 

Always treat every firearm as if it is loaded, unless it isn't.

 

Anyway, an observation. The SASS rules do not condone unsafe handling in either case.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

44 minutes ago, Griff said:

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

I still have a nagging question on this subject... Why do  we have one rule (penalty) for an unloaded gun and another with a stiffer penalty for a loaded firearm?

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say is has to do with the potential injury.  An unloaded firearm is likely to only scar your sensibilities... whereas a loaded firearm could lead to far more serious injuries... 

Along the firing line until a firearm has been officially cleared is it considered "loaded".  

Edited September 7 by wyliefoxEsquire

[El Sobrante Kid]

3 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Along the firing line until a firearm has been officially cleared is it not considered "loaded".  

 

This does not make sense (to me). Did you mean to write "unloaded"? That would make sense.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Correction acknowledged, thanks

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

"Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine."
SHB 45 - SECTION 9 – GLOSSARY OF TERMS

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I'm personally of two thoughts.  One - Why was the Unloading table on the plane as the firing line???

 

Two - The "RO" had his/her head where the sun don't shine.  Twaz MDQ.  Pack up and become a spectator.

[Eyesa Horg]

I've seen a lot of pictures of ranges where everything is on the same line due to no side berms. One must be very careful on that scenario. MDQ unfortunately for the shooter.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I'm personally of two thoughts.  One - Why was the Unloading table on the plane as the firing line???

Page 45 SHB

Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table.

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Unfortunately the 170° has become more of a suggestion than an enforced penalty. With so many folks posting videos (I know, they can't be used for calls, but they can be viewed to see our shortcomings in enforcement) you can see the 170° not being enforced time after time. And the RO's range from those that RO at multiple major matches to just home range RO's.

    I have talked with multiple RO's and RO instructors and have received a lot of differing opinions on when it is broken. This portion of the rule is brought up often and I believeis misinterpreted as NO penalty while drawing and holstering.
"NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to 
draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception 
is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without 
penalty."
 

      We basically are enforcing the 170° cone that Black Jack Zac suggested years ago.

Edited September 8 by SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

[El Chapo]

I never realized we didn't have a rule that makes it a DQ to draw while facing uprange, probably because I can't recall ever shooting a stage that started facing uprange.  We really ought to, and there shouldn't be any leeway for drawing while facing uprange.  That is dangerous, hammer cocked or not, when the adrenaline is raging it's not worth it.

[Diamond Jake]

5 hours ago, El Chapo said:

...I can't recall ever shooting a stage that started facing uprange.  ..

 

I've shot a lot of matches where you start with your back to the targets, such as holding swinging tavern doors, a church pulpit, jail cell door, etc.  People always turn around before drawing revolvers, but I suppose it's possible to draw while still facing up range.  But a rule you suggest would be redundant with the 170 and sweeping violations.

[Kid Rich]

5 hours ago, El Chapo said:

I never realized we didn't have a rule that makes it a DQ to draw while facing uprange, probably because I can't recall ever shooting a stage that started facing uprange.  We really ought to, and there shouldn't be any leeway for drawing while facing uprange.  That is dangerous, hammer cocked or not, when the adrenaline is raging it's not worth it.

I'm glad your adrenaline can rage, mine doesn't.

kR

[Rye Miles #13621]

MDQ all day everyday!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

@SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

The "obvious exception" is codified on SHB p.3 in the "Holsters" section:

 

Quote

When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170°. When re-holstering a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180º). These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster. This allowance applies to all types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Shooter who is moving RIGHT to LEFT has almost no chance of safely keeping the left-side revolver muzzle in the 170 degree safety zone as he draws and runs.  

 

Better choice when moving like this is to pull the right side revolver, but muzzle must immediately be pointed into the downrange 170 before or while the shooter is running along the firing line.  Even that takes a lot of attention by the shooter!

 

Yes, an MDQ was earned by the shooter as described by OP.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited September 8 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Shawnee Hills]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

@SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

The "obvious exception" is codified on SHB p.3 in the "Holsters" section:

True but it's very common to see shooters breaking the 180 while reholstering.  This is observed at all levels of matches and it's very rarely called.  As it's treated, this "rule" is merely a "suggestion".

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

@SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

The "obvious exception" is codified on SHB p.3 in the "Holsters" section:

 

 

Thank you Palewolf for expanding.

The portion of the rule I quoted is brought up often and I believe is misinterpreted and even taught by some as NO penalty while drawing and holstering.

I believe this to be one of our most important rules and have added it to the TG agenda to expand training in ROBS along with possible visual and video training aids.

"NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to 
draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception 
is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without 
penalty."

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

Thanks for all your input.

  I did talk with the RO again, he said he didn't see it, I was right and I should have called it, I have a hard time doing that at other clubs matches, you don't want to be that guy, that's why I pick brass.

   Rob

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Somehow, my point was missed.  If you draw a straight line across the plane of the shooting positions, the Loading and Unloading tables MUST be UP RANGE of that line by several feet at least.  I prefer several YARDS!!  Just quoting the definition of "Firing Line" is meaningless in this scenario.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 If you draw a straight line across the plane of the shooting positions, the Loading and Unloading tables MUST be UP RANGE of that line by several feet at least.

 

That would be real wise.  However, I have shot 2 major matches where the load and unload tables were ON the firing line.  One has to be able to adapt to less than ideal range layouts.  good luck, GJ

[Leroy Luck]

17 minutes ago, Rough 'N Ready Rob said:

you don't want to be that guy, that's why I pick brass

Nobody wants to be “that guy”, but people need to understand and realize what they are doing. Making those tough calls is how we learn. The shooter in this scenario ought to just be thankful it was a monthly and not a big match. 
 

A monthly match shouldn’t just be “oh well it’s a monthly” and let stuff go… it develops bad habits and isn’t fair to anybody. Monthly shoots (in my opinion) ought to be taken as seriously as big matches, so the folks that only go to one or two big matches a year can expect the same thing. 
 

Monthly matches are a great place to learn without the consequences of paying big money to attend far away matches and getting SDQ’d (or even worse) because you didn’t follow the rules, or had a bad (and sometimes dangerous) habit developed that nobody would call you out on before. 

[Cypress Sun]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Somehow, my point was missed.  If you draw a straight line across the plane of the shooting positions, the Loading and Unloading tables MUST be UP RANGE of that line by several feet at least.  I prefer several YARDS!!  Just quoting the definition of "Firing Line" is meaningless in this scenario.

 

On a common firing line, placing the loading tables/unloading tables several yards up range will force everyone loading/unloading their firearms to break the 170 in relation to the firing line.

 

Solution is simple, either draw before leaving P1 and keep your muzzle safely downrange or wait to draw after getting to P2.

 

As far as the non MDQ calling TO, ask them if it's okay if you load your pistol and point it directly at them, you know....as long as it's not cocked. Wonder what the answer would be....I'm betting the answer will be NO.

[Eyesa Horg]

5 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Somehow, my point was missed.  If you draw a straight line across the plane of the shooting positions, the Loading and Unloading tables MUST be UP RANGE of that line by several feet at least.  I prefer several YARDS!!  Just quoting the definition of "Firing Line" is meaningless in this scenario.

Doesn't that put them behind a shooter on the firing line? I realize they would be off to side some,but if I look over my shoulder and see the muzzle, I'm not good on that. Maybe I'm miss understanding the setup. 🤔

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Doesn't that put them behind a shooter on the firing line? I realize they would be off to side some,but if I look over my shoulder and see the muzzle, I'm not good on that. Maybe I'm miss understanding the setup. 🤔

Me too, I think the loading and unloading tables should be right even with shooting line. 

[Cypress Sun]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Doesn't that put them behind a shooter on the firing line? I realize they would be off to side some,but if I look over my shoulder and see the muzzle, I'm not good on that. Maybe I'm miss understanding the setup. 🤔

 

I'm taking "up range" to indicate behind the firing line. Down range would be in front of the firing line.