Bad Concealed Carry Choices

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I requalified for concealed carry yesterday and was amused at the choices of my fellow shooters.  Some borrowed firearms from the instructor and shot OK with a semi-auto.  Their revolver qualifications were not so good.  One fellow had a single action revolver that jammed after three shots and would not continue firing.  The shooter said he has never cleaned it and thought it was time he learned how.  Many borrowed a 45 ACP revolver with moon clips.  They all shot it single action because they were uncomfortable shooting a revolver double action.  😛One woman shot a heavy, 12-inch barreled revolver (also shooting single action).  She laid the revolver down on a table after every other shot as she could not hold it up for six shots.  I hope none of these shooters ever have to use a revolver in a gunfight as they may not prevail.

[Rip Snorter]

Scary good morning!  Folks who want to qualify to carry should be evaluated with the gun they are going to carry!

[Doc Shapiro]

Just now, Rip Snorter said:

Scary good morning!  Folks who want to qualify to carry should be evaluated with the gun they are going to carry!

I disagree with this statement.  The implication is that every time I buy a new carry gun I should have to requalify.  This just doesn't make sense and is impracticable.  

[Rye Miles #13621]

7 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Scary good morning!  Folks who want to qualify to carry should be evaluated with the gun they are going to carry!

Evaluated sure but not required! There’s a difference and I’m not saying you implied that but I have a friend of who kinda leans left on some things. He thinks ALL people who buy a gun should HAVE TO go through training to buy the gun! That’s not what the second amendment is all about. The evaluation on a new carry gun should be voluntary.

[Rip Snorter]

5 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

I disagree with this statement.  The implication is that every time I buy a new carry gun I should have to requalify.  This just doesn't make sense and is impracticable.  

Folks who want to qualify to carry.  In most states, once you have qualified and have your permit you can carry whatever you wish to. Some states do list the guns that can be carried.  Here in Montana you do not need a permit in state, just for travel to states with reciprocity.  I carry the same gun probably 360 days a year - MY Choice.  Others change guns frequently.  My feeling is that you should be completely familiar with a carry gun - same gun is simplest for me even after many decades of holding a permit and carrying.  To each his / her own!

[Old Man Graybeard]

The last time I qualified I didn't want to be thought of as a wimp...so I used a long slide 1911...10mm. I qualified better than most did. Instructor just shook his head

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Other then competition I rarely see anyone shoot a D/A revolver without cocking the hammer first. I've seen a couple of shooters shoot J frames DA but that's about it. 

[Doc Shapiro]

3 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

Folks who want to qualify to carry.  In most states, once you have qualified and have your permit you can carry whatever you wish to. Some states do list the guns that can be carried.  Here in Montana you do not need a permit in state, just for travel to states with reciprocity.  I carry the same gun probably 360 days a year - MY Choice.  Others change guns frequently.  My feeling is that you should be completely familiar with a carry gun - same gun is simplest for me even after many decades of holding a permit and carrying.  To each his / her own!

 

Well, yeah, you should be familiar with the gun you're gonna carry.  And most will.  But there are always a few.

 

Permit isn't required here in ID either, but still went ahead and got the permit due to reciprocity.  There were also no skill requirements, just had to show competency and safe practices.

[John Kloehr]

3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

... I have a friend of who kinda leans left on some things. He thinks ALL people who buy a gun should HAVE TO go through training to buy the gun! That’s not what the second amendment is all about.

 

We could argue the constitutionality of "presumptively constitutional" shall-issue licensing. Part of my criticism is the requirement only applies to those who choose to carry. I would ask this friend a different question.

 

How would he feel about the government requiring him to purchase one or more firearms at his expense and get trained in its use at his expense? Clearly constitutional under "history and tradition" under militia laws. Clearly constitutional if applied to all citizens and not some subset.

[J-BAR #18287]

I'm just glad they took the course and qualified.  The more concealed carry permits are issued the better.  Folks who truly want to carry a gun will eventually find their way to the gun that is right for them.  It may take some time and money and additional instruction, but the rest of us did the same.  Here is a pat on the back and a tip of my Stetson to every class member.

[John Kloehr]

I'm on carry gun number 5 or 6 now.  I have had more than a little training beyond the mandated class, very few do.

 

The "retired" guns were not necessarily bad. I just learned from each evolutionary step including supporting gear. Do have a BBQ S&W 19-3 snubby, have shot it in competition too. I could have qualified with it originally but only because I put in the time to learn it.

 

 

[Doc Shapiro]

7 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I'm on carry gun number 5 or 6 now.  I have had more than a little training beyond the mandated class, very few do.

 

The "retired" guns were not necessarily bad. I just learned from each evolutionary step including supporting gear. Do have a BBQ S&W 19-3 snubby, have shot it in competition too. I could have qualified with it originally but only because I put in the time to learn it.

 

 

I've got 8 or 9 right now, and choose based on where I'm going and what I'm doing.  I'm sure there will be more in my future.  

[J-BAR #18287]

14 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 Do have a BBQ S&W 19-3 snubby

 

Sweet, aren't they!

[Doc Shapiro]

5 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Sweet, aren't they!

 

Nice!  I have a Model 60 I regularly carry.  Though recently it's a Springfield Hellcat.  Note, if you buy a Hellcat, expect to do some trigger work.  The trigger it comes with is awful.

[Blackwater 53393]

Hard to believe that I have had a carry permit for nearly thirty years!!  I qualified with a Taurus PT145 that belonged to Schoolmarm because I didn’t own a semiautomatic and didn’t want to use one of my Blackhawks!🤣

 

I’ve had several carry guns that are situation specific. I normally carry open using my Para 13/45, but I also have other sidearms for medium concealment and for those “You’re not s’posed to carry here!” places that I wouldn’t be caught in without SOMETHING!

 

There have been lots of changes in the permit system here, including permitless carry for those who aren’t otherwise prohibited.

 

We’re beginning to see more people carrying and specifically open carrying around our neck of the woods!

[Three Foot Johnson]

I was sitting here just last night wondering when my DL and CCL were due. I dug through my wallet and found my CDL is due in February, and my CCL expired a year and a half ago...  So it's been 5 1/2 years since my last renewal... it seems like it's been maybe two. It doesn't matter a whit to anybody else, but I'm kind of irked to lose the low three digit permit number I've had for over fifty years. 

 

Fortunately, it's not difficult or time consuming to reapply, one stop and done. No range qualification required, and a DD214 suffices for proof of firearms training, but it costs $50 instead of only $25 for a renewal. Montana doesn't require a permit to carry concealed anyway, but it's handy for a second form of ID or bypassing the NICS background check call.  

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

 

We could argue the constitutionality of "presumptively constitutional" shall-issue licensing. Part of my criticism is the requirement only applies to those who choose to carry. I would ask this friend a different question.

 

How would he feel about the government requiring him to purchase one or more firearms at his expense and get trained in its use at his expense? Clearly constitutional under "history and tradition" under militia laws. Clearly constitutional if applied to all citizens and not some subset.

Militia laws UNUNCONSTITUTIONAL in MHO. BtW my friend would probably go along with such nonsense!

[Blackwater 53393]

A funny story.

Hatfield decided that he would get his carry permit, but at the time he was not in possession of a handgun!

 

The place that held the class required you to use their ammo, but it was supplied with the purchase of the class. He took one of my Blackhawks, partly as a joke and partly because he likes to be different.

 

One of the perks of using this particular instructor was that if you shot 100% in qualifying, he gave you another box of your type of ammo for free!

 

When the instructor pulled the.45 Colt ammunition from the shelf, he looked at Hatfield and told him, “I don’t care if you put every shot in one hole!! I ain’t giving you a free box of this stuff!”  The fifty round box of .45s was priced at $48.95!!

 

He came home with the target and it had one hole about four and a half inches in diameter and no flyers! 🤣

 

The instructor gave him a box of low power .45acp and said, “Take these home and give ‘em to your old man! I figure he put you up to this!”

 

*I didn’t, but I never told the instructor any different!*

[WindyCity Red]

4 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Evaluated sure but not required! There’s a difference and I’m not saying you implied that but I have a friend of who kinda leans left on some things. He thinks ALL people who buy a gun should HAVE TO go through training to buy the gun! That’s not what the second amendment is all about. The evaluation on a new carry gun should be voluntary.

There's nothing that makes me fell safer than a person who buys a gun, carries it but never practices or shoots it and then gets into a gunfight.

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 minutes ago, WindyCity Red said:

There's nothing that makes me fell safer than a person who buys a gun, carries it but never practices or shoots it and then gets into a gunfight.

I don’t know anyone that bought a gun and never shot it. Sure they may not practice all the time but as long as they have shot it occasionally and knows how to handle it I’m fine. 

[Sawhorse Kid]

Nothing wrong with a single action, provided it functions well and the user learns proficiency. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

My two EDC’s, I tend to carry the LCR more than the Glock.

[Dapper Dave]

In todays world I would not carry a single action revolver for self defense unless it was all I could carry. However, that is just me.

Here in AZ, we have had unregulated, unpermitted, unlicensed, unregistered open carry since before we became a state , with the ONLY exception being Tombstone, (Thanks, Virgil!), until the 80s. Then in 1994 we got our first CCW law and I was in the tenth class statewide. So, yes, amazingly enough, I've had a CCW permit for over 30 years. However, in 2010 we went Constitutional Carry, so keeping the permit was mostly for going to/through states that require it, like New Mexico...where we only stop for gas. Ever. So I am covered three ways, badge, permit and CC. 

Basic firearms safety should be taught in schools. But I also agree that mandatory instruction for gun ownership/carry is a bad idea...not because of what it  COULD do, but what it can be TWISTED to do. Imagine if Chucky Schumer and Killary Klinton were in charge of writing up the final exam? Think anyone would pass? Probably not, unless you were a politically connected Democrat, like getting a permit in San Francisco. 

Now, back to the original post - when I worked at an indoor range, we did CCW permit classes, and the one that stands out was the little old lady who showed up with a Ruger Super Redhawk in 44 Mag. She had no idea what it was, borrowed it from her son, (who should have gotten a butt whoopin!), and we loaned her a nice Smith 38Spl instead. 
To be honest, with the things I hear all day long on the news and elsewhere, I've pretty much retired my revolvers to other duties.

EDC;

 

When I am feeling nostalgic, and yes, it IS possible to carry a tank concealed;

Edited August 30 by Dapper Dave

[Doc Shapiro]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I don’t know anyone that bought a gun and never shot it. Sure they may not practice all the time but as long as they have shot it occasionally and knows how to handle it I’m fine. 

 

I've bought guns, which are in the safe, and I've never shot them.  But they ain't for carry.

[Eyesa Horg]

Got permit in Connecticut in '94 IIRC . Moved to Vermont in '06 and haven't needed one since. I kept the Conn. one for one 5 year renewal. They required a passport photo and $50 for another 5 years. When that one expired, the cost went to $110 per year and you had to go to Connecticut to get it and your picture taken!! Never renewed again! I still have it in my wallet, but the photo is pretty old like me, but doesn't quite look like me. 😋

[John Kloehr]

3 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Sweet, aren't they!

They are sweet. It is a BBQ gun for me, I have shot it in BUG competition. I remember a "favorite" stage where a swinging target would show once revealing another target. The ticket for that stage was to get the swinger SA, then take the rest of the targets DA.

 

The snubby guns were carried by either border patrol or secret service. All other LE guns had longer barrels.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

36 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Got permit in Connecticut in '94 IIRC . Moved to Vermont in '06 and haven't needed one since. I kept the Conn. one for one 5 year renewal. They required a passport photo and $50 for another 5 years. When that one expired, the cost went to $110 per year and you had to go to Connecticut to get it and your picture taken!! Never renewed again! I still have it in my wallet, but the photo is pretty old like me, but doesn't quite look like me. 😋

My renewal for the next four years will cost $215 including classroom fees, state processing fees, and $59 for digitized fingerprints so the state can share my prints with the Feds.  

 

My instructor gave me all the once-fired 45 ACP brass from the qualifications.  My Wild Bunch brass is so much reloaded that I can barely read the headstamps anymore.  New brass is welcome.

Edited August 30 by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

8 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I requalified for concealed carry yesterday and was amused at the choices of my fellow shooters.  Some borrowed firearms from the instructor and shot OK with a semi-auto.  Their revolver qualifications were not so good.  One fellow had a single action revolver that jammed after three shots and would not continue firing.  The shooter said he has never cleaned it and thought it was time he learned how.  Many borrowed a 45 ACP revolver with moon clips.  They all shot it single action because they were uncomfortable shooting a revolver double action.  😛One woman shot a heavy, 12-inch barreled revolver (also shooting single action).  She laid the revolver down on a table after every other shot as she could not hold it up for six shots.  I hope none of these shooters ever have to use a revolver in a gunfight as they may not prevail.

What was the C.O.F?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What was the C.O.F?

Twenty-five rounds at a 2-ft x4-ft target at about 3-yards.  No time limit shooting and perfect scores not required.  It's pretty easy.  No one flunked.

[John Kloehr]

COF for the enhanced Tenessee permit is 50 rounds. 20 rounds each at 3 and 5 yards, 10 at 7 yards. Passing is 70% on a silhouette target. I tore a ragged 3" wide by 7" tall hole so 100%.

 

When I taught the class, I would run students 10 rounds at a time at 3, 5, 7, 5, and 3 yards. This gave me time to correct any problems and coach shooters, give some time breaks to rest while reloading, and gave me an early clue if they were going to make it (without coaching). Not sure instructors have this flexibility today but it was not a problem when I did so with students in front of the periodic auditor.

 

No live fire requirement for the concealed-only permit, and the state is now permit-less unless you want to carry in parks (either permit) or have some other specific circumstances (requiring enhanced permit).

[WindyCity Red]

My carry gun.  Only problem is always having to wear a duster......even in  the Arizona summers.

[J-BAR #18287]

I have posted it before, but...

 

When my wife qualified, she used my S&W 1939 K22 Outdoorsman .22 LR.  The instructor saw the one-hole group she shot with her "practice" rounds and told her she was qualified and to leave the range!

[Blackwater 53393]

The original permit required an eight hour class covering the legal aspects and procedures for encounters with law enforcement, prohibited places, and interstate travel.  It also required a live fire, scored course of fire.

 

The course of fire was fifty rounds in a set sequence at three different distances.

 

There were a dozen in the class that I took and they included two older ladies, a couple of younger guys that were dressed in cammo and utility belts, a few nondescript people like myself, an older gentleman who was taking the course in anticipation of shooting HIS father’s WWI 1911, and a guy who openly admitted that he hated guns and was opposed to the permitting.

 

As we went through the classroom portion, the anti guy constantly interrupted the instructor to make some point or argue about the laws or criticise the proposition of allowing people to carry at all.

 

When we completed the classroom portion and the test that followed, the anti guy left.

 

We moved to the range and were assigned stalls to shoot from. We were then told how many rounds to load and to stand by for inspection. After the instructor and his assistant checked everyone out, we were told the first firing sequence and then told to stand by, ready, and fire.

 

We went through several short drills and then told move the targets out to the next distance and fire all but the last ten rounds, then put the targets all the way out and fire those last ten.

 

About halfway through the second stage, the instructor, who’d been observing different shooters, came up behind me and commented on my pattern. I had been carefully shootind around the big red heart and was nearly finished cutting it out of the target. We were good friends and he knew me to be a prankster.

 

He laughed and said that I should go down the line and help one of the cammo guys ‘cause he couldn’t hit the ground with his hat!! 

When I got to the last ten rounds, I put two shots in the head for eyes and a pair for nostrils and then cut a frown with the last six rounds.

 

I scored a 98 because I had tried to shoot a round in the groin area and it went a quarter inch low!🙄

 

The best part of the experience was the older gentleman, after struggling with the first few shots, got in a groove and wore his target out!  He was packing up to leave after all the paperwork and receiving our certificates and he explained that he had never fired that or any other firearm in his entire life! He parted with the statement that he would be back to practice during the week!!

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

22 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

I have posted it before, but...

 

When my wife qualified, she used my S&W 1939 K22 Outdoorsman .22 LR.  The instructor saw the one-hole group she shot with her "practice" rounds and told her she was qualified and to leave the range!

We are limited to .32 rounds or larger.  However, a .22 LR handgun is great for practice - something many permit holders neglect.

[J-BAR #18287]

1 minute ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

We are limited to .32 rounds or larger.  However, a .22 LR handgun is great for practice - something many permit holders neglect.

mizzoorah is all about freedom from such arbitrary restrictions