Duelist pistol speed

[Slow Poke]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

There has been some good advice given but I'd like to comment on a couple of things. Dry firing is great, to a point but you have to be honest while you're doing it. I've never missed a target while dry firing but that can change when you go to live fire. On Doc's video you can slow it down and watch it at half speed or slower and get a good view of what he is doing. He's sliding his thumb off the side of the hammer and getting it out of the way. It was suggested keeping your thumbs on top of the hammers and riding them so that you are ready to cock as soon as the hammer strikes. In my opinion that is a bad idea, eventually you'll interfere enough to slow the hammer fall and have a failure to fire causing you to have to go around again. I'm old and arthritic and the best thing I ever did was go to really good short-stroked revolvers.

 

JMHO 

Good Luck!

Randy

Thank you all advice is appreciated. I have been trying to keep my thumbs up but dang that is a hard habit to break. 

Thank you again for the feedback and suggestions. 

[Slow Poke]

47 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Randy is a very accomplished double duelist. He can provide you with a wealth of information. 
Something I think you should do before you start your next venture in speed, is to set yourself some base times right now. I suggest you shoot three 10 shot strings starting with each pistol on a dump target that you can hit every shot. Record your total times, your splits between shots and your splits between pistols. Now, you have something that you can refer back to and actually see results. 
Dry firing will help build up your thumbs and increase speed, but as mentioned you’ll never get true readings of improvement until you add in recoil. Widder mentioned shorter barrel guns come out of the holster quicker and he is right, but in my testing I found that they were also slower returning to target under recoil. Now if the targets are big and close enough, that might not even come into play unless the gun moves around too much in your hand while cocking and firing. You will have to be the judge of that. When you’re not on the range or just relaxing at home I suggest you do exercises to strengthen your grip. I used to sit around watching tv and squeeze a little rubber ball. A stronger grip will really help with good trigger control. 
Don’t be afraid to try suggestions and see what works best for you. 

Thank you for the advice, yesterday I picked up a 1858 black powder pistol, the spring is extremely heavy I figure when I am sitting in the living room I can dry fire that to help build hand strength and muscle memory up, hopefully keep that thump up and not tucked down.

I appreciate the advice.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

4 minutes ago, Slow Poke said:

Thank you all advice is appreciated. I have been trying to keep my thumbs up but dang that is a hard habit to break. 

Thank you again for the feedback and suggestions. 

My thumb speed is not as fast as Doc’s but this shows that I slide off the hammer and Immediately come back up to re-cock. This was last Saturday, double tap Nevada Sweep on 3 targets. 
 

Thanks

Randy

 

 

 

[Lawdog]

Video is a great tool to see what you are doing, as well as NOT doing.

 

I just looked at some footage from the Midwest Triple Classic and found I was going back to wrapping my thumb on the rifle.

You "think" you know what you're doing in the heat of competition, but the camera doesn't lie.

 

Also taping some of the top shooters in your category is a great way to see what works for them.

 

But what works for you, will be part of a trial-and-error exercise.

[Slow Poke]

6 minutes ago, Lawdog said:

Video is a great tool to see what you are doing, as well as NOT doing.

 

I just looked at some footage from the Midwest Triple Classic and found I was going back to wrapping my thumb on the rifle.

You "think" you know what you're doing in the heat of competition, but the camera doesn't lie.

 

Also taping some of the top shooters in your category is a great way to see what works for them.

 

But what works for you, will be part of a trial-and-error exercise.

Very true,  I try to get as much video of me and the kids as possible its a great training tool. It has really helped jed with his shooting. 

[Slow Poke]

30 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

My thumb speed is not as fast as Doc’s but this shows that I slide off the hammer and Immediately come back up to re-cock. This was last Saturday, double tap Nevada Sweep on 3 targets. 
 

Thanks

Randy

 

 

IMG_6353.mov 38.7 MB · 1 download  

 

That looks like a nice run. I am trying to keep my thumb moving but  I still catch myself holding it down between shots.

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

On 8/29/2026 at 5:54 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yup, my mistake, GF alternates shots from each gun....

He doesn't have to alternate. Just 5 shots with each hand in any order.

JM

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

59 minutes ago, Slow Poke said:

That looks like a nice run. I am trying to keep my thumb moving but  I still catch myself holding it down between shots.

Thanks, it was a bit over 18 seconds, the fumbled second shotgun load cost me some. As others have said, video is a great tool. When I first started looking at videos of my runs, I frequently thought "why did I do that"?

 

Randy

[Slow Poke]

21 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Thanks, it was a bit over 18 seconds, the fumbled second shotgun load cost me some. As others have said, video is a great tool. When I first started looking at videos of my runs, I frequently thought "why did I do that"?

 

Randy

I did the same thing, most of the time I was always looking at my transitions,  to make sure my other hand was doing a different task than the other. One picking up, one putting down kinda thing 

[Lawdog]

1 hour ago, Slow Poke said:

Very true,  I try to get as much video of me and the kids as possible its a great training tool. It has really helped jed with his shooting. 

It's also been fun watching Jed develop into a fine shooter over the years.

In spite of all the ribbing (good natured of course) that we gave him.😁

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, Slow Poke said:

Thank you for the advice, yesterday I picked up a 1858 black powder pistol, the spring is extremely heavy I figure when I am sitting in the living room I can dry fire that to help build hand strength and muscle memory up, hopefully keep that thump up and not tucked down.

I appreciate the advice.

 

Careful using a different pistol dry firing. Repeatedly firing a pistol with different geometry can cause you to develop the wrong muscle memory.

 

I experienced this when switching between my old model Vaqueros and my Ruger Old Armys.  I bit the bullet and had SBH hammer spurs grafted onto my ROA hammers. 

[High Plains Hud SASS#64232]

Slowpoke already beats the pants off of me!😀  lots of good advice. Will love watching you get faster. 

[doc roy l. pain]

If you want to see some fast duelist shooting just Google Straight Arrow Hombre speed duelist run.  
I will say this. The man has paws like a bear lol

Edited Monday at 11:27 PM by doc roy l. pain

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

22 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

If you want to see some fast duelist shooting just Google Straight Arrow Hombre speed duelist run.  
I will say this. The man has paws like a bear lol

One of the finest for sure.  And, super nice "bear".

[doc roy l. pain]

Also a few years ago Anvil Al  put together a compilation of Hair Trigger Hayes videos from stages he shot. An excellent resource for learning how to move and transition between firearms. 

[Slow Poke]

51 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Also a few years ago Anvil Al  put together a compilation of Hair Trigger Hayes videos from stages he shot. An excellent resource for learning how to move and transition between firearms. 

He has alot of good runs. Just watched his videos. Thanks for the tip.

[Colt Laredo]

Must be real nice to be able to shoot in your back yard 🤣

[Eyesa Horg]

41 minutes ago, Colt Laredo said:

Must be real nice to be able to shoot in your back yard 🤣

It is! Especially when working up a load! I've been able to for 40+ years, so it will be an important part of our next move!

[Tennessee williams]

Question for you slow poke. Are you looking for advice to get faster stage times or just plain pistol speed, like for side matches?

The answers are different for each question. For plain pistol speed, I don't think anyone can disagree with Widder. For stage speed, you can't argue with two of the best in RSE and Doc.

  I am not the fastest individual gun shooter, but put them together and I can routinely get to 15 depending on the scenario and have been faster. If you can shoot your pistols in 5 seconds from the draw, rifle in 4 seconds from the pickup, and shotgun in 4-5 seconds from pickup but your stage times for a stand and deliver is over 16 for d duelist style, then transitions need to be worked on. Borgs like Doc RLP will do it regular duelist style. 

  For straight pistol speed, its hard to argue against someone who held the gunfighter speed record from when ole Abe Lincoln was getting fit for his hat until that well mannered scrappy kid came along.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Colt Laredo said:

Must be real nice to be able to shoot in your back yard 🤣

 

Its great.

My backyard is 200 acres, which belongs to a farmer that loves for me to be on his property.

I help rid his land of groundhogs, coyotes and occasion mud turtles in his ponds.

 

..........Widder

 

[doc roy l. pain]

3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

  For straight pistol speed, it’s hard to argue against someone who held the gunfighter speed record from when ole Abe Lincoln was getting fit for his hat until that well mannered scrappy kid came along.

Bout spit my coke out in my lap over that one lol

[Slow Poke]

4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Question for you slow poke. Are you looking for advice to get faster stage times or just plain pistol speed, like for side matches?

The answers are different for each question. For plain pistol speed, I don't think anyone can disagree with Widder. For stage speed, you can't argue with two of the best in RSE and Doc.

  I am not the fastest individual gun shooter, but put them together and I can routinely get to 15 depending on the scenario and have been faster. If you can shoot your pistols in 5 seconds from the draw, rifle in 4 seconds from the pickup, and shotgun in 4-5 seconds from pickup but your stage times for a stand and deliver is over 16 for d duelist style, then transitions need to be worked on. Borgs like Doc RLP will do it regular duelist style. 

  For straight pistol speed, its hard to argue against someone who held the gunfighter speed record from when ole Abe Lincoln was getting fit for his hat until that well mannered scrappy kid came along.

I am trying to get my overall times down, I am working on the rifle with the help of my son buffalo chip. My shotgun is on point i feel. My transitions do well, I feel like my pistol times are where I am suffering.  

 

 

[doc roy l. pain]

Nothing wrong with that stage there.  I assume you were shooting 45’s.  Try going to a lighter bullet or back off the powder a little in your pistols and see if that will help speed things up. 

[Slow Poke]

Just now, doc roy l. pain said:

Nothing wrong with that stage there.  I assume you were shooting 45’s.  Try going to a lighter bullet or back off the powder a little in your pistols and see if that will help speed things up. 

Those were actually 44-40s and the load was a little bit hot. I normally shoot 45s with 160gn head and 4.2gn titegroup. They dont rock nearly as much as those 44-40 loads.

[Tennessee williams]

Does it just look like it, or do you have a different hammer technique for each hand on your pistols?

Right hand looks like it sweeps in from the side and catches to pull back in a circular motion like I do, but I could be wrong due to the angle.

 

 

 

Left hand looks like the thumb comes straight in line with the hammer to catch the spur and pull straight back. This is a LOT more motion than catching it from the side and just having your thumb move circular. Also with the circular motion, you're using your larger thumb muscles between the thumb and forefinger and the big ball outside your thumb to manipulate the hammer. Pulling straight back, you use a smaller muscle toward the palm and longer tendons. To get your hand far enough back to reach straight in line, it gives you an open/low grip. You want to keep as high a grip as possible without being in the way of the hammer. This puts the barrel more in a direct line with the lower part of your arm i stead of the barrel being higher which allows you to manage recoil better een with our light loads. 

 

It is easy for me to set in my recliner and give feedback. I'll try to post a pic or video of what Im trying to say.

Duelist is coolest

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

Hopefully this shows what Im saying. With an open grip like on my first string, muzzle control is bad. With a higher closed grip, you have more muzzle control, and will have less muzzle flip as well. 

As always...what works for me, may not work for you. 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 03:32 AM by Tennessee williams

[doc roy l. pain]

That’s good technique TW.  By the way, did you get those little guns from Widder😎

[Tennessee williams]

44 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

That’s good technique TW.  By the way, did you get those little guns from Widder😎

Yes, I did! You should see Randy St Gorilla hands hold them! I have big hands. Randy is on another level. 

[Slow Poke]

6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Does it just look like it, or do you have a different hammer technique for each hand on your pistols?

Right hand looks like it sweeps in from the side and catches to pull back in a circular motion like I do, but I could be wrong due to the angle.

 

 

 

Left hand looks like the thumb comes straight in line with the hammer to catch the spur and pull straight back. This is a LOT more motion than catching it from the side and just having your thumb move circular. Also with the circular motion, you're using your larger thumb muscles between the thumb and forefinger and the big ball outside your thumb to manipulate the hammer. Pulling straight back, you use a smaller muscle toward the palm and longer tendons. To get your hand far enough back to reach straight in line, it gives you an open/low grip. You want to keep as high a grip as possible without being in the way of the hammer. This puts the barrel more in a direct line with the lower part of your arm i stead of the barrel being higher which allows you to manage recoil better een with our light loads. 

 

It is easy for me to set in my recliner and give feedback. I'll try to post a pic or video of what Im trying to say.

Duelist is coolest

 

 

I broke my right thumb years ago so it does not bend very well anymore.  So yes I have to bring that one to the side more. But yes the right hand technique is different.

I see what you are saying my one hand uses the side or edge of the hammer where the other uses the middle of the hammer to pull it back but then the thumb must get out of the way for the hammer to fall, vs the thumb just moving to the side. I will work on that.

Edited Wednesday at 10:23 AM by Slow Poke

[Widder, SASS #59054]

10 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

That’s good technique TW.  By the way, did you get those little guns from Widder😎

 FUNNY!

 

Ole TW has bought a few sets of Rugers from me over the years..... each one of them were competition grade.

Some set up by Lassiter.   One set in .45 Colt, was set up by Three Cut.   All the octagon barrels are from Snake Oil George.

Ole TW actually shoots the .45's in some of his matches

 

He told me that until his competition gets better, he'll shoot those .45's.

and when his competition gets faster, he'll revert back to his faster .38's......  

 

Now that's funny!

 

..........Widder

 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

You guys are about to make me dizzy.  Heck, think I will just go get out in this heat and run a few rounds down range.

Slow, will I see you this weekend at SITS?

[Slow Poke]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

You guys are about to make me dizzy.  Heck, think I will just go get out in this heat and run a few rounds down range.

Slow, will I see you this weekend at SITS?

No unfortunately I think my next big shoot is at Oklahoma state in cushing.  

Shoot straight this weekend. 

[doc roy l. pain]

3 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

You guys are about to make me dizzy.  Heck, think I will just go get out in this heat and run a few rounds down range.

Slow, will I see you this weekend at SITS?

100 degrees here at the house right now. I think I’ll wait till it warms up a little before I venture out lol

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

5 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

100 degrees here at the house right now. I think I’ll wait till it warms up a little before I venture out lol

Yea.  I been enjoying the range at 102.  Shotgun warms up quickly.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

49 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Yea.  I been enjoying the range at 102.  Shotgun warms up quickly.

 

I do a lot of shooting in hot weather.  My shooting spot on the farm is shaded.....and I always take a few firearms because you are right BB,

even small caliber pistols can warm up quickly..

 

I often take 3 or 4 .22 pistols, along with others that I might be 'testing'.

 

..........Widder