WTC Rifle and pistol targets seperation

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

We all know or aware if there are 2 sets of targets, one for rifle and one for pistols. Shooting pistol targets with rifle or vice versa also carries misses for each wrong target hit or missed. Question came up if there is only one set of Targets, designated by order either rifle start or pistol.  If the order is rifle then pistol, the targets start as being rifle targets only. What if the shooter mistakenly pulls and shoots his pistols on target first, is it misses also or just a "P"? 

[Lucky R. K.]

I think just a miss. It could be a procedural because he did not shoot the string in the correct order. He definitely would not receive both penalties.

Lucky 😁

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The shooter shot the guns out of order.  P

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

It is a "P".

"If" you are using the same steel for both; then the steel is designated RIFLE & PISTOL targets.

NOT Rifle then Pistol targets.

 

The shooter will receive a procedural for shooting firearms out of order; but hits and misses would be scored normally.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I agree with Badlands Bob, they are all rifle/ pistol targets so no miss for shooting the wrong type gun first, just a “P”. 
 

IMHO

Randy

[Ciderbarrel]

Gun order is rifle first.

 

Each pistol round shot is a miss: hitting the incorrect target is a miss and missing any target is a miss.

 

Then, each rifle shot is a miss for the same reason.

 

Going by the situation proposed where the "shooter mistakenly pulls and shoots his pistols", we are going to assume it was all 10 rounds.

 

That is 110 seconds of penalties: 20 misses (10 pistol misses when the rifle should have been shot, 10 more rifle misses when the pistols should have been shot, plus a P for engaging the stage in the wrong order.

 

SHB page 22.

 

Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with 

the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target 

type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each missed target. 

- Each unfired round. 

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired 

round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ. 

- Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. 

- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

Procedural (P) infractions include:

- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

- Shooting targets in the wrong order.

- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.

- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.

- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).

- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.” 

- Firing more rounds than specified in the stage instructions.

 

Edited August 10 by Ciderbarrel

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

@Ciderbarrel When did the shooter shoot at inappropriate targets?

 

If there had been differing target arrays (one for rifle and one for pistol) - then you could score as you are.  

 

But in the OP; the only targets available are combination rifle and pistol targets.

Meaning they are APPROPRIATE targets for rifle AND pistol. 

They do not magically switch depending on the gun in hand.

 

The targets are appropriate for both type guns - no penalty (other than any earned ACTUAL misses).

 

The targets were hit in the wrong order (gun order) - assign a Procedural.

[Ciderbarrel]

@Creeker, SASS #43022

 

Gun order is rifle, pistols, shotgun, but the latter is not important. 

 

Shots 1-10 must be from the rifle, shots 11-20 must be from the pistols.

 

The shooter shot rounds 1-10 with pistols, and 11-20 with the rifle.

 

That is 20 misses. A miss for each target hit with the inappropriate firearm and a miss for each target missed.

 

Again, from my last post:

 

Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with  the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target  type using the appropriate type of firearm.

 

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. 

 

I fail to see what is confusing about that. With 20 shots, they did not hit the target with the appropriate type of firearm.

Edited August 10 by Ciderbarrel

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

10 minutes ago, Ciderbarrel said:

Shots 1-10 must be from the rifle,

 

And the penalty in the handbook for violating the GUN order is a P.   And, since only 1 P is given on any stage, there is no penalty awarded when the shooter gets to the rifle as the second gun he shot.  

 

Just a P.  good luck, GJ

 

 

[El Sobrante Kid]

If there were two different sets of targets for rifle and pistol then there would be 20 misses. In this case the pistol targets and the rifle targets were the same targets. So the shooter did actually shoot the correct targets, but the firearms were in the wrong order. That's a P.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

@Ciderbarrel Why it is confusing is because YOU are misinterpreting the passage you are quoting.

 

You are correct - shots 1-10 ARE supposed to be from the rifle.

Shots 11-20 ARE supposed to be from the pistols.

That is absolutely correct and EXACTLY why the shooter earns a Procedural.

 

But EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE 20 SHOTS are assigned to the same pieces of steel.

They all strike "firearm appropriate targets" - they simply do so in the incorrect order. 

You cannot assign misses.

 

[Ciderbarrel]

This came up in the ROII course I took a few years ago.

 

From what I recall, shots 1-10, they are considered rifle targets, and shots 11-20 they are considered pistol targets.

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L -- am I way off-base here, since I am the only one with this position?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

6 minutes ago, Ciderbarrel said:

This came up in the ROII course I took a few years ago.

 

From what I recall, shots 1-10, they are considered rifle targets, and shots 11-20 they are considered pistol targets.

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L -- am I way off-base here, since I am the only one with this position?

 

Apparently

[Ciderbarrel]

I would I would rather be wrong and learn the correct answer than be confidently incorrect.

 

Thanks for the clarification everyone!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

27 minutes ago, Ciderbarrel said:

I would I would rather be wrong and learn the correct answer than be confidently incorrect.

 

Thanks for the clarification everyone!

 

Way to cowboy up - awesome response.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Thanks for all the input. Its what I gave, a "P". It was afterwards many said he, the shooter, should have been give 20 misses. Several had never taken a course and recommended same to many. 

Thought I would post it here and see results. You all did good!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Okay a P for shooting the wrong targets but do misses still count? I say yes, right or wrong?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Where are the misses?  All shots hit correct R/P targets. GJ

[Rye Miles #13621]

10 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Where are the misses?  All shots hit correct R/P targets. GJ

I’m just asking hypothetically, IF there was misses.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

In this case being discussed, no missed targets. 

But if the shooter had a missed target, sure it would count - it was a MISS!   Making the total penalty a P and a miss.  GJ

[John Kloehr]

It took me a long time to understand the miss concept.

 

Consider this stage instruction: "Target order is 1 2 3 2 1, repeat." So this would be:

 

1  2  3  2  1  1  2  3  2  1 

 

But the shooter shoots:

 

1  2  3  2  1  2  3  2  1  2

 

This is a single P (not 5), no misses (shooter hit the correct type of target). If shooter makes the same error with pistols and rifle, still just the one P (not 2 and not 10), still no misses. Really took me a long time to understand this. The only wrinkle in this thread is target type, which I read as "pistol and rifle targets" as they  are used for both gun types Not stated, there were also presumably shotgun targets. With that wrinkle, I still come to the same conclusion. Shooter hit the correct type of targets. Guns were shot out of order. P. And just 1 for the stage, not 1 for each gun type.

 

2 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Thanks for all the input. Its what I gave, a "P". It was afterwards many said he, the shooter, should have been give 20 misses. Several had never taken a course and recommended same to many.

 

It was a  different scenario but the same scoring confusion in a stage when I got a P, and it was I as the shooter asking about my misses. I was sure the spotters and TO were being too generous or had a brain fart with just a P, I was still sure some of my shots were misses.

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

21 hours ago, Ciderbarrel said:

Gun order is rifle first.

 

Each pistol round shot is a miss: hitting the incorrect target is a miss and missing any target is a miss.

 

Then, each rifle shot is a miss for the same reason.

 

Going by the situation proposed where the "shooter mistakenly pulls and shoots his pistols", we are going to assume it was all 10 rounds.

 

That is 110 seconds of penalties: 20 misses (10 pistol misses when the rifle should have been shot, 10 more rifle misses when the pistols should have been shot, plus a P for engaging the stage in the wrong order.

 

SHB page 22.

 

Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with 

the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target 

type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each missed target. 

- Each unfired round. 

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired 

round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ. 

- Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. 

- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

Procedural (P) infractions include:

- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

- Shooting targets in the wrong order.

- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.

- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.

- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).

- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.” 

- Firing more rounds than specified in the stage instructions.

 

 

Seriously?

 

No offense Cider, but an RO refresher course is in order.

Edited August 11 by Cypress Sun

[Griff]

5 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Thanks for all the input. Its what I gave, a "P". It was afterwards many said he, the shooter, should have been give 20 misses. Several had never taken a course and recommended same to many. 

Thought I would post it here and see results. You all did good!

The peanut gallery input is usually worth just that:  Peanuts!

5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Okay a P for shooting the wrong targets but do misses still count? I say yes, right or wrong?

Hypothetical misses count... hypothetically.

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Seriously?

 

No offense Cider, but an RO refresher course is in order.

I think this thread counted as a partial refresher.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

On 8/10/2026 at 3:07 PM, Ciderbarrel said:

I would I would rather be wrong and learn the correct answer than be confidently incorrect.

 

Thanks for the clarification everyone!

Always keep in mind- this is a GAME we play for fun!

Why on earth would you WANT to give someone 20 misses??

Isn’t the procedural bad enough?

Too many people take this WAY too seriously, IMO! It ain’t life & death!! It’s just a HOBBY, as a wise person once told me!

[Eyesa Horg]

25 minutes ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

Always keep in mind- this is a GAME we play for fun!

Why on earth would you WANT to give someone 20 misses??

Isn’t the procedural bad enough?

Too many people take this WAY too seriously, IMO! It ain’t life & death!! It’s just a HOBBY, as a wise person once told me!

I sometimes wonder that myself!! Thankfully I'm rarely the victim!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

37 minutes ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

Always keep in mind- this is a GAME we play for fun!

Why on earth would you WANT to give someone 20 misses??

Isn’t the procedural bad enough?

Too many people take this WAY too seriously, IMO! It ain’t life & death!! It’s just a HOBBY, as a wise person once told me!

In all fairness - I don't believe any of us WANT to penalize anyone.

But if a shooter does something that SHOULD earn X penalty - we don't get to decide that instead; just assigning a Procedural is "enough".

 

Making sure we assign the correct penalty is important to everyone at the match that believes penalty determination and assignment should be consistent across all the posses.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

5 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

In all fairness - I don't believe any of us WANT to penalize anyone.

But if a shooter does something that SHOULD earn X penalty - we don't get to decide that instead; just assigning a Procedural is "enough".

 

Making sure we assign the correct penalty is important to everyone at the match that believes penalty determination and assignment should be consistent across all the posses.

Giving someone 20 misses was NEVER the right thing to do!!

Unless they actually missed the targets 20 times.

[Eyesa Horg]

We had that happen at a major match this year. A cowgirl in the pouring rain shot the wrong targets and received 20 misses on her first stage. Sucked! And I forgot my shotgun shells on the same 1st stage! Oh well!

Edited August 31 by Eyesa Horg
Otto

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

47 minutes ago, Tell Sackett SASS 18436 said:

Giving someone 20 misses was NEVER the right thing to do!!

Unless they actually missed the targets 20 times.

By the current rules - it CAN be the correct call.

We don't have to like it or agree with it - but if we are playing the game and the circumstances dictate it; we must assign it.

[Scarlett]

On 8/10/2026 at 3:43 PM, Ciderbarrel said:

This came up in the ROII course I took a few years ago.

 

From what I recall, shots 1-10, they are considered rifle targets, and shots 11-20 they are considered pistol targets.

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L -- am I way off-base here, since I am the only one with this position?

While I’m not @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, you have told me you’d trust me with your infant son in your absence… so I think you trust me. 
 

because there are targets that are SHARED by rifle and pistol, it’s a P only. It’d be just like shooting the correct targets (if there were separate arrays for R and Pistol) with the correct guns BUT shooting the pistols when the rifle should have been first. The targets were hit however, not in the correct gun order. 
 

at the BP match this past weekend, a shooter shot the rifle targets with his pistol and the pistol targets with his rifle. ONE target was a COMMON R/P TARGET So he only got misses for the shots that weren’t on the common target. 
 

Kiss that sweet baby for me and tell him Scarlett loves him!

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Diamond Jake]

No one mentioned this, but in the shooter's sheets or books with stage instructions, there is usually a graphic of the target placement, and in situations like the one described the targets would have "R/P" on the targets.  This would clearly state that hitting them with either firearm type would be considered a hit.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Some background.
We continue to struggle with a group that wanted to more strongly penalize shooters.  Before 2001, a miss was a miss period. In some rare cases, if you missed the target and hit a wrong target, it resulted in a P rather than a miss.  Life happens and in general like is good!

Then in 2001 and they changed so that the definitions of a P and miss were mixed.  So if you shot the wrong target you got a miss AND a P.  If you shot all wrong targets you got a P plus 10 misses, 60 second penalty. 
Why? This was because some wanted more difficult stages emphasizing accuracy or distance.  They feared that people would just shoot the wrong (easy) targets intentionally an just take the P.  This of course should be penalized by a spirit of the game penalty.  Since they rationed that too many people refuse to give that penalty, they must change the system to strongly force shooters to "act right."    So for a year we had the same mistake being called for bot a P and misses. 

I was at a great match and didn't do a thorough walk through.  The targets were graduated and the targets were not all visible unless you moved.  You triple-tapped each target.  I finished the stage happy not knowing one target was not visible so I had shot the wrong target 3 times.  Thus a 3 misses and a P per the new rules.  Some criticized the club because they didn't make the target a different color but that was no a valid criticism to me.  No one was happy but that was the rule so.

 

The next year the clarification was make that a miss could not cause a P.  So the "double" penalty was avoided.  So shooting all wring targets would get a 50 second penalty rather than the 60 seconds.

 

And we are continuing to struggle with how to mange the P and misses.

Isn't that an improvement?  

[Show Me]

Maybe the best to say this is...

If the rules say 20 misses  for 20 hits on wrong targets.  I vote to change the rules.....😀

SM ✌

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Show Me said:

Maybe the best to say this is...

If the rules say 20 misses  for 20 hits on wrong targets.  I vote to change the rules.....😀

SM ✌

Nope...  20 misses of the correct targets, whether hitting the dirt backstop, or some other target, should be just that, 20 misses. Otherwise, you're just penalizing all the other competitors for shooting the scenario correctly.

[John Kloehr]

Let's see if I can state it clearer as my brain does process slowly though I think I got it right earlier in this thread.

 

Targets are designated as rifle and pistol targets. Shooting procedure calls for rifle, then pistols. Shooter shoots guns out of order.

 

That is a P. The target type does not change during the stage, they are all still rifle and pistol targets at all times, they were designated for both gun types in the stage description. Follow the flowchart. The correct type of targets were hit. No misses. Continue the flowchart. They were shot in the wrong order. P.

 

Next shooter.