WTC - Hands on hat.

[Taos]

Scenario instructions are: "Start with hands on hat."  It's hot, a shooter is not wearing his hat.  He retrieves his hat, lays it on the shelf (table) and puts both his hands on the hat.  He argues the instructions do not say the hat has to be on his head.

What's the call?

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Do not start him until he put the hat on and touches it, OR leave it off and puts his hands where it would be if he was wearing it.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Considering heat and probably a current  lax in dress code, perhaps stage description should have emphasized on head, or an option.  Even in cooler weather "on head" instructions might be best although we assume hat is position should be on head.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

I will push the limits with the best of them.  At some point we should all expect "normality".  It is normal for hat to be on head.

Some shooters may not wear hats .... ladies.  It is then normal to touch ears.

It is also important for stage writers to write CLEAR instructions.  

On hat (fingers above the rim not only underneath)

Gripping hat (thumb and fingers on opposite sides of rim)

Touching hat (anything goes)

Are all different instructions and all are touching the hat, and hat is on HEAD!

[John Kloehr]

Keeping in mind a TO should not let a shooter start in a faulted position, this popped into my memory:

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Next time write the stage to say, with hat on head......

[Go West]

Start the dude when he has his hat on or he puts his hands on head/ears if no hat.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Nah!!  Youz all be party poopers.  Often instruction say "hand on hat" and just that.  Nothing states where the hat is nor whose hat it is.  Normally, I just turn around and put both hands on the TO's hat and indicate "lets dance" to start the stage.

 

Why does everybody like to include "where as" and "why for" and "because" whilst boldly quoting rules that DO NOT EXIST.  Get over yourselves and get back to having some FUN!!

[Sedalia Dave]

22 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Nah!!  Youz all be party poopers.  Often instruction say "hand on hat" and just that.  Nothing states where the hat is nor whose hat it is.  Normally, I just turn around and put both hands on the TO's hat and indicate "lets dance" to start the stage.

 

Why does everybody like to include "where as" and "why for" and "because" whilst boldly quoting rules that DO NOT EXIST.  Get over yourselves and get back to having some FUN!!

 

Several years ago a similar argument was brought up because a person tried to claim that wearing spurs around their upper arms met the requirements for Classic Cowboy/cowgirl.  ROC ruled that to be counted it meant as normally worn.

 

IMNSHO the same applies here.

 

It's people like this that have caused the rule book to swell from a pocket sized booklet into the 52 page monster we have today. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I give a demerit to the TO for allowing the shooter to leave the firing line and hold up the posse while he retrieved his hat to indulge himself in this foolishness, even if was a joke. All the TO had to do was say “Hands on head”.

[El Chapo]

Another example of trying to figure out a way to ding someone where there is no rule so requiring.  The call is no call.  What would you do if the person didn't have a hat at all?  There is no requirement for most categories that a cowboy wear a hat.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

35 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Several years ago a similar argument was brought up because a person tried to claim that wearing spurs around their upper arms met the requirements for Classic Cowboy/cowgirl.  ROC ruled that to be counted it meant as normally worn.

 

IMNSHO the same applies here.

 

It's people like this that have caused the rule book to swell from a pocket sized booklet into the 52 page monster we have today. 

 

That "spur ruling" was the inspiration for this addition to the SHB on psge 2:
"All clothing and equipment must be worn appropriately and how it was intended, or how it would have been in the Old West or as seen on B-Western movies and television."

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

20 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

Another example of trying to figure out a way to ding someone where there is no rule so requiring.  The call is no call.  What would you do if the person didn't have a hat at all?  There is no requirement for most categories that a cowboy wear a hat.  

Please refer to the reply from PaleWolf. You are correct that most categories do not require a hat but the ones that do require it to be worn appropriately. 
 

Randy

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That "spur ruling" was the inspiration for this addition to the SHB on psge 2:
"All clothing and equipment must be worn appropriately and how it was intended, or how it would have been in the Old West or as seen on B-Western movies and television."

 

And so there goes the argument that "it doesn't say the hat has to be on the head"....

[John Kloehr]

33 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

And so there goes the argument that "it doesn't say the hat has to be on the head"....

An unanswered question remains. Since the TO should not let a shooter start in a faulted position, WTC? Reshoot or P? I think P since the shooter is responsible for following the rules and stage instructions. How strong is the requirement for the TO to not let the shooter start if not "ready" even if the shooter indicates ready?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Next time write the stage to say, with hat on head......

To cover those without cover...

 

How about:

 

Hands touching hat or temples of shooting glasses if hat not worn on head.

Edited August 7 by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

[Cholla]

24 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

To cover those without cover...

 

How about:

 

Hands touching hat or temples of shooting glasses if hat not worn on head.

And just like that, this thread is done. But I bet it goes on for three pages with arguing.

[Eyesa Horg]

[Rye Miles #13621]

5 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Considering heat and probably a current  lax in dress code, perhaps stage description should have emphasized on head, or an option.  Even in cooler weather "on head" instructions might be best although we assume hat is position should be on head.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Just for giggles - how about we do away with silly lack of imagination starting position instructions altogether?

 

40, 50 or 60 years ago you were in a field shouting "I got you!" with your straw hat, a red neckerchief your Mom bought at Kresges and your Hubley pistols with a roll of sulphurous smoking paper caps hanging out the top...

Even back then; we knew gunfights didn't start with "hands on hat".

 

If needed for stage flow - the starting position should specify:

A ) the shooters physical location; i.e. in doorway, at window, etc.

 

B ) any prop or equipment handling/ manipulations; I.e. moneybag in hand, shotgun in hand(s), pouring whiskey etc.

 

C ) other than specific to the stage instructions - the shooter should be allowed (encouraged) to position their body, hands, etc. as suits their desires best (after all - the physical abilities/ limitations of your shooters may make some positions more or less favorable to their success - why do that for an unneeded instruction?) you can add in "not touching guns or ammo" if you wish or even hands must be minimal 6" from the starting gun type.  But allow your shooter the opportunity to do what is best for them.

 

D ) We all shoot differing styles, equipment, calibers and propellants - we wear differing belts, holsters, shotgun belts and bandoliers - as long as the same options for starting position are available to all - there is ZERO need to require conformity to awkward, unnecessary and frankly unimaginative instructions.

Edited August 7 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Normally,  I would have said..."No Call".

But of course, after reading the relevant information posted by PWB, I would request the shooter put their hands somewhere around

their ears, temple, eyes.....head vicinity. 

 

But my big question concerning any penalty would be.....'was a competitive advantage achieved whether hands were

touching the  hat on the head or hat on the table.   Seems like both starting points are basically the same...atleast it would be for 

me.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[El Chapo]

7 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Please refer to the reply from PaleWolf. You are correct that most categories do not require a hat but the ones that do require it to be worn appropriately. 
 

Randy

 

But they don't require that it be worn at all.  As usual, I disagree with his interpretation. 

[Shawnee Hills]

38 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

But they don't require that it be worn at all.

I take it to mean that if a shooter is to wear such things then the shooter must wear them as they are intended to be worn.  That’s reasonable.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

37 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

 

But they don't require that it be worn at all.

It's called "Spirit of the game" - if you wish to participate; you commit fully to completing the stage and complying with the stage instructions to the best of your abilities.

 

If you have a hat - for the purposes of being used as the starting position - it must be worn properly.

 

If you do NOT have a hat - then for the purposes of starting position - you will use the next adjacent option - your head. 

 

It is, of course, your choice to not wear a hat - but just because you are not able to comply with the letter of the instructions; that situation does not exempt you from the intent of the instruction.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

An unanswered question remains. Since the TO should not let a shooter start in a faulted position, WTC? Reshoot or P? I think P since the shooter is responsible for following the rules and stage instructions. How strong is the requirement for the TO to not let the shooter start if not "ready" even if the shooter indicates ready?

P.  Shooter responsibility.  More commonly, a shooter may be in proper position before the beep, but moves to a different position before the TO starts the timer.

[Griff]

7 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

An unanswered question remains. Since the TO should not let a shooter start in a faulted position, WTC? Reshoot or P? I think P since the shooter is responsible for following the rules and stage instructions. How strong is the requirement for the TO to not let the shooter start if not "ready" even if the shooter indicates ready?

If the shooter doesn't follow the TO's instruction to correct his starting position, the TO should ask that shooter proceed to the unloading table and unload their guns.    And that they're welcome back when they're prepared to shoot in accordance with the rules.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just for the heck of it...
Shooter with no hat refuses TO's instruction to put hands where they would be if the shooter was wearing a hat.

TO tells shooter to do so as there will be no start in the faulted position.
After 3X warning, the shooter demands to be started anyway.

Possible penalties:
Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct. 

- Match DQ (SHB p.24)

Willfully refusing to make an attempt to complete any non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions (Failure to Engage).

- 30-second penalty (SHB p.24)

[Rye Miles #13621]

Just when you thought you’ve heard everything this comes along! If I was the TO I would have said, pick up your hat and put it on your head. I will not start the timer until you do. If you refuse, go to the unloading table SDQ

Edited August 8 by Rye Miles #13621

[Don Jorge]

Initially, at a local match, praise for being clever, then assume the Start position.  Failure is a trip to the unloading table for a mind adjustment moment, then penalties, if necessary.

At a Major Match, State or above, straight trip to the unloading table and await the Match Director for a ruling, in order to keep the Posse moving.

 

Should a a conflict develop, appropriate penalty should be applied, as noted above.

 

Life is too short for this type of BS.

 

 

[Horse Creek Spinks]

So I have been an actual cowboy or rancher my whole life, I rarely competed in any "lifestyle" sports, (bronc riding, team roping, cutting, reined cow horse, rodeo, etc). However a dear friend asked me to go to a ranch roping in Alturas, CA in 2009. Now there were some really nice prices donated by sponsors that were probably going to get the contestants business anyway.. It landed around me and my wife's anniversary so we planned a trip, booked a flight, rented a car, I packed up my spurs and chaps, borrowed a horse, a saddle, and bridle that were already there. Like I said the prizes were really nice and probably saved some of the winners some money on something they would have bought anyway. I won a high dollar 100% beaver custom made hat that I would have never bought because of price but would have been cheaper than the trip if I had!

 

Now I told you all of that to tell you this: there was one main rule at that roping, DON'T BE A DINK! Now depending on how involved or not involved you are with the raising of cattle and the people that do it, and then how many you know in that business in the different cattle raising regions of our country, you may or not know what that term really means. Well that's ok, I'll never hold that against you! However if you decide to be a dink to win something that you probably could have bought for less money than what it took to shoot a match, then yes, you are a dink, a true and honest waste of time!

 

We all know the meaning of "hands on hat"! Don't be a DINK!

Edited August 9 by Horse Creek Spinks

[WindyCity Red]

On 8/7/2026 at 9:21 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Several years ago a similar argument was brought up because a person tried to claim that wearing spurs around their upper arms met the requirements for Classic Cowboy/cowgirl.  ROC ruled that to be counted it meant as normally worn.

 

IMNSHO the same applies here.

 

It's people like this that have caused the rule book to swell from a pocket sized booklet into the 52 page monster we have today. 

Exactly  right 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Horse Creek,

I like and agree with your post.

 

BUT, our game of Cowboy Action Shooting was/is designed and guided around HOLLYWOOD westerns.....old movies

we grew up watching and love.

But.....everyone knows that Hollywood is DINKY.

 

..........Widder

 

[Silver Creek Jack]

On 8/7/2026 at 3:33 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Just for giggles - how about we do away with silly lack of imagination starting position instructions altogether?

 

40, 50 or 60 years ago you were in a field shouting "I got you!" with your straw hat, a red neckerchief your Mom bought at Kresges and your Hubley pistols with a roll of sulphurous smoking paper caps hanging out the top...

Even back then; we knew gunfights didn't start with "hands on hat".

 

If needed for stage flow - the starting position should specify:

A ) the shooters physical location; i.e. in doorway, at window, etc.

 

B ) any prop or equipment handling/ manipulations; I.e. moneybag in hand, shotgun in hand(s), pouring whiskey etc.

 

C ) other than specific to the stage instructions - the shooter should be allowed (encouraged) to position their body, hands, etc. as suits their desires best (after all - the physical abilities/ limitations of your shooters may make some positions more or less favorable to their success - why do that for an unneeded instruction?) you can add in "not touching guns or ammo" if you wish or even hands must be minimal 6" from the starting gun type.  But allow your shooter the opportunity to do what is best for them.

 

D ) We all shoot differing styles, equipment, calibers and propellants - we wear differing belts, holsters, shotgun belts and bandoliers - as long as the same options for starting position are available to all - there is ZERO need to require conformity to awkward, unnecessary and frankly unimaginative instructions.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Starting positions I like that I think make sense:

1. Texas surrender

2. hands at side 

3. rifle, shotgun or pistol/pistols in hand.

That’s the only ones I use for the stages I write.

[El Chapo]

On 8/7/2026 at 7:03 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It's called "Spirit of the game" - if you wish to participate; you commit fully to completing the stage and complying with the stage instructions to the best of your abilities.

 

If you have a hat - for the purposes of being used as the starting position - it must be worn properly.

 

If you do NOT have a hat - then for the purposes of starting position - you will use the next adjacent option - your head. 

 

It is, of course, your choice to not wear a hat - but just because you are not able to comply with the letter of the instructions; that situation does not exempt you from the intent of the instruction.

 

If the spirit of the game requires shooters to wear hats, the rule book should specify that every shooter has to wear a hat.  There is no such rule.  And there is no rule that if I have a hat, I can't complete a stage without wearing my hat, either.  No rule specifies any of that.  Which is a good thing, my had has an 8" brim and I'm sure there's some day that will come where I have to finish shooting a stage without my hat when nature takes its course.

 

Other than that, I agree with your basic idea.  If the start position is hands on hat, and you don't have a hat on your head, then your hands go where your hat would be, it's really not that difficult.  There's no penalty involved, you simply don't start the shooter until his hands are in the right position.

Edited August 9 by El Chapo