Swiss black powder loads

[9245]

I’m looking to work up a couple of new loads using Swiss Black Powder but have a couple of questions.

 

What would be a good 12 gauge 2.5 inch brass load?  I want to get a safe load for some old Damascus barrels and my idea is to load the absolute minimum effective load to reliably knock down targets that I can get away with at the lowest possible pressures.  I would use the same load for any other shotgun too, but my intent is to load for the weakest link, just in case I ever work up the nerve to shoot the thing.  The barrels look solid to me but I do not have X-Ray eyes to see if there is any delamination.

 

Alternatively, is there a lower cost smokeless load that is low pressure enough to be safe in damascus barrels?

 

Finally I have the opposite project in mind for a load for a Remington 1858 from Pietta, I’m seeing how hot I can get it safely, I already know it will do a 30 grain 3f charge with a Kerr conical but would it be safe to do it with 4f?  This one is more of a what if theoretical thing vs an actual practical load, but the solid frame has me wondering.

Edited July 12 by 9245

[Sedalia Dave]

First 4F power is for priming flintlock pans. Do not use it for any other purpose.

 

If you want to shoot heavy black powder loads out of a revolver go buy a Walker Colt replica. 

 

If you do your part, a 3/4 ounce load of shot will do the job at CAS distances.  So a square load using equal volumes of shot and powder is where you start.

 

FYI even with black powder, damascus barrels that are compromised will fail.  The reason they fail can be due to any combination of intergranular, pitting, crevice, stress, and fatigue corrosion, and/or delamination.  Only known way to verify their integrity is ultrasonic inspection.

Edited July 12 by Sedalia Dave

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

You don't want 4F for this!

2 or 3 F is best.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Personally I wouldn't waste Swiss powder on shotgun or pistol, but save it for the rifle.

[Lucky R. K.]

Using Swiss powder for cowboy shooting is a big waste of money. Goex or Schuetzen are much cheaper and adequate for the job. Swiss should be saved for precision long range shooting. Not just because it is a hotter powder, but it also burns much cleaner thus saving wiping time.

Lucky 😁

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

You will find this useful

--Dawg

 

https://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

46 minutes ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Using Swiss powder for cowboy shooting is a big waste of money. Goex or Schuetzen are much cheaper and adequate for the job. Swiss should be saved for precision long range shooting. Not just because it is a hotter powder, but it also burns much cleaner thus saving wiping time.

Lucky 😁

Goex is very hard to find.

[Sedalia Dave]

41 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Goex is very hard to find.

Powder Inc has  Schuetzen in stock. Way less expensive than Swiss. 

Edited July 12 by Sedalia Dave

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I would use a 1oz square load of Goex or Scheutzen for the shotgun and not waste Swiss as it is so costly. For my ROA's I use 25gr of 3f. 

[Eyesa Horg]

Keep an eye on Graf & Sons as well. They usually have Schuetzen and their own brand made by Schuetzen at pretty good prices especially during free haz mat or shipping. Their shipping is usually low too.

Edited July 12 by Eyesa Horg
Typo

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Isn't someone trying to start making GOEX again. The factory came apart violently. I never shot anything but BP in my 20 years of shooting. Health issues mad ene stop. But I had 80 lbs stockpiled of GOEX. It went like Trailboss when I offered it out.

[Griff]

6 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You don't want 4F for this!

2 F is best.

Fixed that for ya!  Save the 3f for smaller calibers.  (<.40 caliber or when you want a slightly more powerful load, but NOT in that damascus barreled shotgun).

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for Sedalia Dave and Prairie Dawg and The Original Lumpy Gritz

 

Damascus Barrel shotguns are, for the most part NOT SAFE.  Your Circus, Your Monkies, I just don't want to be around when your shooting a Damascus Shotgun. 

[9245]

Has anyone ever tried shells by RST?

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, 9245 said:

Has anyone ever tried shells by RST?

 

Quote

 

Our shells are safe to shoot in Vintage Guns. Even with Damascus and Twist Steel barrels!

Of course after a reputable SxS gunsmith has given the OK.

 

 

Have you done this AND gotten a report in writing.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[9245]

I’ve also looked at sub caliber inserts I.E. 20 gauge through a 12 gauge for peace of mind with damascus barrels, but I have yet to find an adaptor which will actually work with the extractor, all I have seen would require the shells to be pried out one at a time with a finger nail, a coin, knife, or a screw driver.  If anyone knows of an adaptor that would work and that a set of two would not exceed the price of a whole new gun, I would love to hear about it.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Sounds like you’ve made up your mind to shoot those Damascus barrels and are still looking for someone to say it’s ok, despite advice to the contrary. 😬

[9245]

4 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Sounds like you’ve made up your mind to shoot those Damascus barrels and are still looking for someone to say it’s ok, despite advice to the contrary. 😬

No, I’m looking for advice how to do it safely instead of a blanket “never shoot damascus.”  In a perfect world I would just have them sleeved but I have yet to find a double gun gunsmith that works with normal guns at normal prices instead of $40,000 bespoke guns that only get fired twice a year at the country club by blue bloods that wouldn’t flinch at a $5,000gun smithing bill.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

8 minutes ago, 9245 said:

No, I’m looking for advice how to do it safely instead of a blanket “never shoot damascus.”  In a perfect world I would just have them sleeved but I have yet to find a double gun gunsmith that works with normal guns at normal prices instead of $40,000 bespoke guns that only get fired twice a year at the country club by blue bloods that wouldn’t flinch at a $5,000gun smithing bill.

Sedalia Dave already gave you that advice:

 

”Only known way to verify their integrity is ultrasonic inspection.”  
 

If you don’t like the answers you’ve been given, you’re kinda on your own. 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 7/12/2026 at 7:56 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

First 4F power is for priming flintlock pans. Do not use it for any other purpose.

 

If you want to shoot heavy black powder loads out of a revolver go buy a Walker Colt replica. 

 

If you do your part, a 3/4 ounce load of shot will do the job at CAS distances.  So a square load using equal volumes of shot and powder is where you start.

 

FYI even with black powder, damascus barrels that are compromised will fail.  The reason they fail can be due to any combination of intergranular, pitting, crevice, stress, and fatigue corrosion, and/or delamination.  Only known way to verify their integrity is ultrasonic inspection.

I have heard of people using on small caliber pocket pistols also .

Rooster 

Edited July 13 by Rooster Ron Wayne

[9245]

30 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Sedalia Dave already gave you that advice:

 

”Only known way to verify their integrity is ultrasonic inspection.”  
 

If you don’t like the answers you’ve been given, you’re kinda on your own. 

And how many hundreds/thousands of dollars is that going to cost?

 

I once gad a stripped screw, the double gun smith wanted $250 just to use a stripped screw remover, that was not including the cost of a new screw.  I opted to just do it myself with a $20 stripped screw bit, a power drill, and about 5 minutes of labor.

[9245]

Truth be told I would much rather use a sub caliber insert for safety, that is if anyone made one with automatic extraction instead of the thumb nail approach.

 

Basically I want to find a way to use it safely without spending decent used car money to have a double gun smith just inspect it.  Hell, it’s a wonder the ones I talked to didn’t send a bill just to answer the phone…

 

If anyone can explain why a double gun smith charges 10 times what a standard gun smith charges I would love to hear the justification.

 

Anyway, this is getting off topic now.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, 9245 said:

And how many hundreds/thousands of dollars is that going to cost?

 is your friend:  https://www.doublegunpreservation.com/list-of-services-and-prices.  Repairs to my old damascus double were a fair bit more than that.  I still won't use it at a match.  It might not disintegrate in the next thousand rounds... but, it might the very next one.  I won't take that chance.  

Edited July 13 by Griff

[Sedalia Dave]

This is why we tell people to go to a match and ask questions before they spend money on firearms that are unsuitable for CAS.  It's obvious that you bought a shotgun without understanding what it would cost to make it work.  

 

Now you are mad at us because we can't give you the answers that you want to hear.

 

It's not our fault that there is not a ten dollar solution to your problem.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13 by Sedalia Dave

[Lucky R. K.]

21 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Goex is very hard to find.

Dave Gullo at Buffalo Arms has a pretty good selection of all of them including Goex. Conspicuously absent are 2 and 3F,

Lucky 😁

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Dave Gullo at Buffalo Arms has a pretty good selection of all of them including Goex. Conspicuously absent are 2 and 3F,

Lucky 😁

OOS on all Goex.

I use the Old E 2F.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder.html

Edited July 13 by The Original Lumpy Gritz

[Lucky R. K.]

20 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OOS on all Goex.

I use the Old E 2F.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder.html

I have heard that Old E is just Schuetzen in a different can.

Lucky 😁

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

I have heard that Old E is just Schuetzen in a different can.

Lucky 😁

Old Elmsford is manufactured by Goex here in the US, whereas Schuetzen is manufactured for the US market by Wano, in Germany.  And Swiss is manufactured in Aubonne, Switzerland at the Aubonne Powder Mill.  Believe half of what you're told, a quarter of what you read, an eighth of what you see,  And only about 95% of that you research for yourself, for that involves, reading stuff written by others.  Unless you have very good sources... unlike the internet.  

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

As far as the general safety of Damascus barrels, author Sherman Bell did extensive testing beginning in 1999 at the now sadly defunct “Double Gun and Single Shot Journal.” He bought a series of shotguns from reputable makers, but in junk condition, and tested them to failure.

I’ll include a link to a thumbnail of his findings.

Whatbhe found was Damascus barrels are generally safe to fire with smokeless loads  and are generally safe with blackpowder. 
https://media.mwstatic.com/cms/larrys-stories/2017_6/183_damascus-barrels-rumors-and-facts.pdf

 

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

As far as the general safety of Damascus barrels, author Sherman Bell did extensive testing beginning in 1999 at the now sadly defunct “Double Gun and Single Shot Journal.” He bought a series of shotguns from reputable makers, but in junk condition, and tested them to failure.

I’ll include a link to a thumbnail of his findings.

Whatbhe found was Damascus barrels are generally safe to fire with smokeless loads  and are generally safe with blackpowder. 
https://media.mwstatic.com/cms/larrys-stories/2017_6/183_damascus-barrels-rumors-and-facts.pdf

I don't think anyone here is saying that it's unsafe to shoot a damascus bbl'd shotgun.  But, I think we've all pretty much agreed that: . It’s important to note the line:  "...neither Sherman nor I claim that old Damascus barreled shotguns are safe to shoot; only a competent gunsmith should offer that opinion on an individual gun."

[Eyesa Horg]

The gunsmith that checked two of mine hung them by the hook on his finger and tapped each barrel with a screwdriver. They rang and he said good to go for BP. I didn't ask about smokeless. Made up some 2.5" shells and shot them both with no issues.

 

 

 

[Sheriff Dill]

14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The gunsmith that checked two of mine hung them by the hook on his finger and tapped each barrel with a screwdriver. They rang and he said good to go for BP. I didn't ask about smokeless. Made up some 2.5" shells and shot them both with no issues.

 

Dang auto got you again. lol. Hope it all came out ok Sir. Must have been a long day today 😀

[Eyesa Horg]

Thanks for the fix. For some reason otto does that to me a lot on that word. Probably I fat finger it since the o and i are next to each other!

[9245]

21 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The gunsmith that checked two of mine hung them by the hook on his finger and tapped each barrel with a screwdriver. They rang and he said good to go for BP. I didn't ask about smokeless. Made up some 2.5" shells and shot them both with no issues.

 

 

 

I did the same test with mine, they ring like bells.  Barrel thickness looks good too, as is confirmed by my calipers, albeit only at the muzzles.  The bores are frosty but no major pits that I can see.