C45S question

[Tall John]

For those reloading Cowboy 45 Special,  are you using a 45 Colt sizing die or the 45 Autorim sizing die?

 

I’ve been using the Hornady Autorim sizing seating/crimp die set since starting down this road with great results until i started reloading cut brass.   I’m finding that the CBC 300+ cut cases are working fine but about 1/3 of the 160 Hornady cut cases won’t clear the cylinder checks after reloading.   I cant visibly see/measure a difference.

 

Ive checked my bullet sizing,  (0.4525-0.4530”), chamfer/deburring and the only thing I can surmise is that some of the Hornady brass must be thicker or too much crimp? Or the Autorim sizing die isn’t effective as it should be?

 

Thoughts?

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Try a .45acp size die.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That (.45 auto sizer die) is where I started when first loading C45S, and I found I did not like the extra size down work it puts on the brass that will be fired in a .45 Colt chamber (the revolvers) which then let the brass swell out to the full .480" diameter of .45 Colt chambers.

 

I switched to a .45 Colt sizer and find it works very well for both Starline C45S and chopped .45 Colt cases.   

 

I DO find Hornady brass to be kinda thick in other calibers.  Don't have any in .45 Colt that "need" to be cut down to C45S.

 

I would first look for a small bulge that can form during crimping, just below the mouth of the case.

 

I've captured a small cut from one of your pics. 

I look for changes in reflection if I am looking for bulges in a shiny case.  Look at the tip of the green arrow in my cut. That seems to be a slight bulge.  Might measure the OD of the case right where that shiny strip appears.  If the OD is at or over 0.480 there, there's your problem.   Seems also to be just about where the pic of chamber checking step shows the rounds stopping.  

 

Thick brass, and crimping just a little too tightly, my guess without getting hands and calipers on them.  Or even having the mouth of the case contact the land of the bullet just forward of the crimp groove - you want to leave 0.005" air gap between the bottom of that bullet land and the brass of the case mouth on the longest case you have.  If the mouth runs into the land during crimping, a case wall bulge results.

 

good luck, GJ 

Edited Thursday at 03:18 AM by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Sixgun Seamus]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Try a .45acp size die.

This overworks the brass and you end up with split cases. Use the 45 Colt die for resizing.

[Nickle]

Its thick brass from cut down cases. Forster sells a reamer for their case trimer.  I just chuck their insode the case reamer into my cordless drill and ream by hand

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I don't need to ream my cases that I cut - and I do that to a wide range of brands.  Lots less work.  If I had to avoid the Hornady cases, I would do so.  GJ

[Slow Poke]

I use a 45 colt sizing die, a 45 acp powder through die, a 45 colt seating die, and a 45 auto rim roll crimping die. 

 

Its kinda a hogpog set but them put out good rounds.

[Eyesa Horg]

I've always used a colt size die. An ACP die will impart a taper. And crimp just a hair below the top of the crimp groove. I haven't used cut down brass in many years however. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, the ones that don't fit into the chambers, try this.

Bump them into your size die and then try'em

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I use 45 ACP dies.

[Eyesa Horg]

I use ACP for seating only.

[Tall John]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, the ones that don't fit into the chambers, try this.

Bump them into your size die and then try'em

good idea!  I’ll try that.

 

its really interesting the randomness yet commonness.

 

i went back and 100% re-checked the 120ish Hornady reloads that originally passed the smaller cylinder and they passed again!

 

im guessing G Joe’s assessment is the likely issue with some of the Hornady cut cases being ever so slightly different in length than the others.

 

you guys are the best mentors!  Thanks!

[Nickle]

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I don't need to ream my cases that I cut - and I do that to a wide range of brands.  Lots less work.  If I had to avoid the Hornady cases, I would do so.  GJ

Some chambers tighter than others.  I make alot of 455 eley. 455 webley mark 2 out of various 45 colt cases and they get thicker the shorter you cut them. Some cases more than others.  
soft lead will swage or size down a bit in the case.  WW not so much.

 If anyone cares the reaming really helps with accuracy in the short cut down cases. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE fer Eyesa (both)

 

45 ACP dies are NOT optimum for Cowboy 45 Special.

 

I have also set my seating die so the very top of the crimp groove is just a hare above the case mouth, so the entire crimp is into the groove.  I think Garrison Joe alluded to that as well.  Switch to a regular 45 Colt sizing die.  I also recommend separate seating and crimping dies.  My personal recommendation for a crimper is the Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp Die.  It imparts a really nice roll crimp into the crimp groove.

[Taos]

What The Original Lumpy Gritz said.

[Coosie]

I use an acp die to crimp. All others are colt dies

[Sarge]

I use a RCBS .45 Colt sizing die.  I tried both an RCBS .45 ACP and the Hornady Custom Grade  .45Auto/AR/WIn sizing die.  I went back to the .45 Colt die because I experienced more split cases with the .45 ACP dies.  I believe they over work the brass.

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

I use my 45 ACP dies for C45S.  But I only shoot c45s in Wild bunch so it’s very convenient to do it all on the same dies.  Load a bunch of ACP then just change the shell plate.  My seating die is only for seating, I use a separate crimp

die that I adjust between the two calibers. And I adjust the seating for the bullet.  
I do not have split cases and have used these C45S cases for years.  Ever since Adirondak Jack came out with them.  And I think he was the one who told me to use the ACP dies.  But that’s a memory thing.  I won’t be betting my lunch on it!

[Tall John]

15 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, the ones that don't fit into the chambers, try this.

Bump them into your size die and then try'em

welp,  I took everyone’s advice…

 

1 switched to the 45 Colt sizing die

2. adjusted my OAL so the crimp fits in the bullet crimp groove.

3.  Ran 300 rounds and had a dozen that wouldn’t cylinder check so I bumped them with my sizing die and all but 1 (Hornady) passed my cylinder check.

 

thanks guys!  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Post a picture of a rnd that chambers next to one that doesn't. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

AND .... run a caliper on the rounds that you make which do not chamber-check successfully, recording maximum cartridge diameter.  Measuring and FINDING exactly where the problem is, turns a mystery into a need for a simple adjustment!    What OD do your slugs measure, as well?  If ANY out of 100 exceed 0.453" (even 0.452"), you should be aware you are heading into troublesome waters with your thick brass and over-maximum finished diameter!

 

good luck, GJ

[Tall John]

GJ,  

 

so I cant post any pictures as all rounds have been made to clear checking in the smaller of my two NMV cylinders.

 

are you suggesting that I should size my PC cast bullets to 0.452” (0.4515-0.0420” Lee .452 Bushing range). Vs sizing them to 0.453”(0.4525-0.4530”) for use with cut brass?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If you have "too-large" a diameter of finished rounds, and the large diameter occurs where the bullet sits in the case, then, for sure, a smaller bullet diameter will assist in reducing the OD of the loaded round.  May not make all the correction needed - IF you have a crimp that is bulging the case.   Do I load 0.453" slugs?  Nope.  My sizer is 0.452".

 

But - You are chasing results without understanding all the causes right now.  Sorta like firing the parts cannon at a car misfire.   

 

FIND where the large diameter occurs on the case.  Then find WHAT causes that large diameter to happen.   Only then can you solve your problem without guess work and trying 20 things.    One real good thing to do is run a batch of 10 rounds through reloading steps, measuring maximum case diameter that you find on each case.  Write down diameters after resizing, mouth expanding, bullet seat and bullet crimping.  Look at the numbers to let them tell you what step is leaving the cases larger than will fit.  Look for exceeding diameter that fits your  chamber checking.  Look for large diameters up at the mouth  end of the case.  One thing that expands the case diameter is belling the case mouth (if your expander button is too large a diameter - common with .45 Colt expander dies), or during seating the slug.  Another is badly adjusted crimping die bulging the brass.. 

 

(It sorta sounds like you don't own a caliper, either dial or digital).  For $25 or $40, it is one of the MUST HAVE tools for figuring out reloading problems.  A 0-6" caliper works for almost all cartridge loading.)

 

good luck, GJ

[Griff]

I've never cut a piece of 45 Colt brass to make C45S length cases, although I have approximately 300 cut brass that I've used.  Someone else cut, loaded, used  them and repeated before deciding it was time to retire from shooting.  I picked them up and have used and reloaded them a few times.  My 550C has a dedicated tool head for C45S, a RCBS 45 Colt decap/sizer, Dillon powder stand w/thru die expander, a RCBS 45Auto/AR/GAP roll crimp/seater.

My loaded ammo in C45S brass w/a 160 gr, RFN, measures .4740" right in front of the extractor groove, and .4735" at the crimp groove.  After searching thru my ammo can, I found a cut down 45 Colt case, R-P nickel, with same 160 RFN.  Measurements are:  .474" down its length.  .474" right in front of the extractor groove, and .474" at the crimp.  These are commercial bullets I buy and my quality checks find them to run the advertised .452 ± .0005.  My finished rounds tend to have a very slight wasp shape, with the narrowest outside diameter .470" just below the fully seated bullet.  Cut down .45 Colt cases don't have the wasp waisted appearance if the C45S, although both are sized in carbide RCBS sizers.  

 

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

...a caliper, either dial or digital... is one of the MUST HAVE tools for figuring out reloading problems.  A 0-6" caliper works for almost all cartridge loading.)

I cannot emphasize enough just how important this is.  Far less expensive than an appropriately size micrometer, and for reloading purposes, just as accurate.  I highly recommend getting a metal one, but if plastic is more price point effective... it's better than not having one!

Edited Friday at 04:57 PM by Griff

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

6 hours ago, Tall John said:

GJ,  

 

so I cant post any pictures as all rounds have been made to clear checking in the smaller of my two NMV cylinders.

 

are you suggesting that I should size my PC cast bullets to 0.452” (0.4515-0.0420” Lee .452 Bushing range). Vs sizing them to 0.453”(0.4525-0.4530”) for use with cut brass?

Yes, .452!

[Tall John]

Since beginning reloading in 2021 I have acquired very high quality calipers, micrometers, chamber checkers and pin gauges.  I’m just learning what to look for and how/when to use them by trial & error So your feedback is highly valued.

The issues outlined in my OP relate to the randomness of my problem which narrowed to some, not all, of the brass of a particular brand in my initial test batch.  Note that when I start a new load, I do a very limited run, and test/chrono them before pushing forward. Thus how I discovered this problem in the first place.

.  

 

 

[Tall John]

I do want to explore the topic of cast bullet diameter though.  Much of what I’ve read both on and offline recommends sizing cast bullets +0.001 over the gun’s bore size to ensure a good seal, accuracy and reduced fouling.  Yes I’ve slugged my gun chambers too.

 

obviously using commercially cast bullets will always have us using the precise diameter of the caliber unless special sizing is ordered

 

Ive been following this practice with my cast bullets and it seems to work well but can understand why it might not be a good idea with cut brass that might be thicker so I’ll have to evaluate the performance of  this batch of reloads further

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

20 minutes ago, Tall John said:

Since beginning reloading in 2021 I have acquired very high quality calipers, micrometers, chamber checkers and pin gauges.  I’m just learning what to look for and how/when to use them by trial & error So your feedback is highly valued.

The issues outlined in my OP relate to the randomness of my problem which narrowed to some, not all, of the brass of a particular brand in my initial test batch.  Note that when I start a new load, I do a very limited run, and test/chrono them before pushing forward. Thus how I discovered this problem in the first place.

.  

 

 

Make sure you know how to 'zero' them for correct calibration. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

23 minutes ago, Tall John said:

Since beginning reloading in 2021 I have acquired very high quality calipers, micrometers, chamber checkers and pin gauges.  I’m just learning what to look for and how/when to use them by trial & error So your feedback is highly valued.

The issues outlined in my OP relate to the randomness of my problem which narrowed to some, not all, of the brass of a particular brand in my initial test batch.  Note that when I start a new load, I do a very limited run, and test/chrono them before pushing forward. Thus how I discovered this problem in the first place.

.  

 

 

Keep notes of every 'run' you do.

[Tall John]

I have a log book for my loads and label my storage containers with the load data for quick reference

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Tall John said:

I have a log book for my loads and label my storage containers with the load data for quick reference

Include lot numbers for powder and primers.

[Tall John]

Good idea….i haven’t been doing that.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 minutes ago, Tall John said:

Good idea….i haven’t been doing that.

What my Mentor taught me when I started reloading in 1967. 👍

[Eyesa Horg]

When I started I copied some pages out of a reloading manual that had a section for lot numbers. So I've been doing it for a long time. I also record bullet stock. Can't say I've ever needed a lot number, but ya never know!