What's the call?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

(DISCLAIMER: I wasn't there, so some of the "facts" are actually factoids made up by me for the purpose of an interesting WTC.)

 

A newly qualified (to be a TO) but inexperienced cowboy is handling the TO duties; this is a complicating factor.

 

Scenario Variation 1

Order: Shotgun, Rifle, Pistols

After using shotgun, Shooter moves over to shoot rifle.  On the 8th round of 10, Shooter thinks he's had a squib and says "I think that was a squib."  TO says nothing.  Shooter opens the rifle's action, puts the rifle on the table, and moves over and shoots his pistols.  While shooting his pistols, Shooter reconsiders what happened with the rifle, changes his mind and decides he DID NOT have a squib, and proceeds back to the rifle position, picks it up, closes the action, and completes the rifle pattern (rounds 9 and 10 on the correct targets) without incident.  There was no squib.  What's the call?

 

Scenario Variation 2

Same order, same stage instructions.

After using shotgun, Shooter moves over to shoot rifle.  On the 8th round of 10, Shooter thinks he's had a squib and says "I think that was a squib."  TO says "open it, put it down and move on."  As in Scenario Variation 1, Shooter opens the rifle's action, puts the rifle on the table, and moves over and shoots his pistols.  While shooting his pistols, Shooter reconsiders what happened with the rifle, changes his mind and decides he DID NOT have a squib, and proceeds back to the rifle position, picks it up, closes the action, and completes the rifle pattern (rounds 9 and 10 on the correct targets) without incident.  There was no squib.  What's the call?

 

 

Edited July 3 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

#1, even without TO acknowledgement the shooter essentially declared the gun broke, possible blocked barrel. When he came back and fired it without verifying the barrel I think it should be a SDQ for unsafe gun handling. 
 

#2, There was TO acknowledgement and the TO told him to ground it. Same penalty. 
 

Just my opinion. 

 

Randy

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

One more:

 

Scenario Variation 3

Order: Shotgun, Rifle, Pistols

After using shotgun, Shooter moves over to shoot rifle.  On the 8th round of 10, the gun "pops" and Shooter thinks he saw the bullet travel downrange, though not all the way to the target.  Shooter says nothing and TO says nothing, but several members of The Peanut Gallery (which may or may not include at least one Spotter) yell "squib."  Shooter opens the rifle's action, puts the rifle on the table, and moves over and shoots his pistols.  While shooting his pistols, Shooter reconsiders what happened with the rifle, changes his mind and decides he DID NOT have a squib, and proceeds back to the rifle position, picks it up, closes the action, and completes the rifle pattern (rounds 9 and 10 on the correct targets) without incident.  There was no squib.  What's the call?

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Same general call.  When a shooter throws down a gun before he has fired all rounds based on a call of squib which the shooter agrees with (otherwise he would have continued shooting), he is declaring the gun "broken."   Going back to (discarded broken) rifle AFTER shooting a pistol (or other) sequence is not allowed.  As soon as he fires the rifle again, that's a SDQ for using a gun declared to be "broken". 

 

The "broke gun" declaration earns the shooter a privilege he normally would not get - being able to discard a gun that is otherwise not safe to discard (because it's not empty, and maybe not even able to be opened).  Thus removing any MSV call for rounds that may be found in the gun.  The "penalties" that accrue for declaring a broken gun are the rounds not fired.   So, that added "relief" comes with the SDQ penalty of using an unsafe firearm if it is picked up again and used after another gun is fired.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Edited July 3 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[John Kloehr]

Separate from the wisdom of shooter changing his mind on a bad gun declaration...

 

"

 

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition(s) only

(some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):

- Empty.

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged

for further use).

 

"

 

My thoughts...

 

Can't come back to use that gun again, it was not staged properly for further use. A bad gun declaration gets a pass on the empty requirement as long as it is otherwise discarded safely, but can not get around the rule for using it again. As to the specific penalty, I have no clue. I can come up with a P for shooting guns out of sequence, but that is a penalty for a different reason and does not fit this situation.

 

[Griff]

46 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

#1, even without TO acknowledgement the shooter essentially declared the gun broke, possible blocked barrel. When he came back and fired it without verifying the barrel I think it should be a SDQ for unsafe gun handling. 
 

#2, There was TO acknowledgement and the TO told him to ground it. Same penalty. 

#3. Same call. 

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

As soon as the shooter declared a squib and put the rifle down it became a not to be used forearm until cleared at the unloading table, and it's determined there is or isn't a bullet in the barrel. The TO should not have left him pick up the rifle and fire it until proven safe. When he did it becomes a SDQ. Even if he wasn't given a SDQ it should have been at least a P for shooting out of order.

[John Kloehr]

8 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

As soon as the shooter declared a squib and put the rifle down it became a not to be used forearm until cleared at the unloading table, and it's determined there is or isn't a bullet in the barrel. The TO should not have left him pick up the rifle and fire it until proven safe. When he did it becomes a SDQ. Even if he wasn't given a SDQ it should have been at least a P for shooting out of order.

 

I'm close to your thinking philosophically. And with the P I presented above, the bad gun declaration also comes with miss penalties for the unfired rounds. As to an SDQ for using it again, I do not find it in the rules. This may be because, as you suggest, it should not be used again. All I found for a bad gun is this:

 

"

Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties (except misses for unfired rounds) so long as the malfunction is declared and the firearm is made safe.

 

"

 

So I agree philosophically on an SDQ. I can't find it in the rules. The wording for a malfunction certainly implies there are miss penalties, the shooter went back to avoid those. Were they already earned on the bad gun declaration? Hard to fault the rules committee for not defining a penalty for something most people would never think of doing.

 

I let this sit without posting for a bit, looked at the rules again. Changed my mind, "Unsafe firearm handling" is an SDQ and a bad gun declaration defines the arm as not safe.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

If I was TO, I would not allow a shooter to pick up a rifle declared broken because of a possible squib, and start shooting it again, without checking to see if a bullet really was stuck in the barrel.  Maybe I'm crazy, but that's why we have him ground the gun in the first place.  
Safety first.

--Dawg 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Aside from the warranted penalties in the aforementioned scenarios...
IF the Timer Operator had stopped the shooter from returning to finish the rifle string with the (apparently) fully functional firearm;

the following would have applied:

"In the case of a suspected squib, the TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.  

If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot."

SHB p.15

 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

On 7/3/2026 at 11:53 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Aside from the warranted penalties in the aforementioned scenarios...
IF the Timer Operator had stopped the shooter from returning to finish the rifle string with the (apparently) fully functional firearm;

the following would have applied:

"In the case of a suspected squib, the TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.  

If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot."

SHB p.15

 

 

Of course.  that's why I asked a few different scenarios.  I don't know if the TO STOPPED the shooter, or if the shooter did so all on his own.  Either way, the shooter putting the gun down before finishing the rifle string is a non-verbal declaration of suspected squib (or "broke gun"), as I see it, and he cannot safely shoot that gun again under any circumstances.

[Padre De Cinco]

On 7/3/2026 at 8:52 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

So, that added "relief" comes with the SDQ penalty of using an unsafe firearm if it is picked up again and used after another gun is fired.

I'm curious to see if my logic checks out for scenario #3.

 

1. If the TO did not give directions and the shooter didn't declare broke or squib it would be a P, shooting out of order (shooter engaged shotgun, rifle, pistol, back to rifle)

2. If the shooter declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the shooter. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

3. If the TO incorrectly declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the TO. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

 

Quote

 

Order: Shotgun, Rifle, Pistols

After using shotgun, Shooter moves over to shoot rifle.  On the 8th round of 10, the gun "pops" and Shooter thinks he saw the bullet travel downrange, though not all the way to the target... Shooter opens the rifle's action, puts the rifle on the table, and moves over and shoots his pistols.  [after] shooting his pistols, Shooter...  proceeds back to the rifle position, picks it up, closes the action, and completes the rifle pattern.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

3 hours ago, Padre De Cinco said:

I'm curious to see if my logic checks out for scenario #3.

 

1. If the TO did not give directions and the shooter didn't declare broke or squib it would be a P, shooting out of order (shooter engaged shotgun, rifle, pistol, back to rifle)

2. If the shooter declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the shooter. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

3. If the TO incorrectly declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the TO. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

 

But see also page 16:

 

"

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition(s) only

(some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):

• Empty.
• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

"

 

The only way it would be legal to set the rifle down with the action open is if it is a bad gun (or empty). The moment the shooter returned to it, doesn't he accrue a penalty for unsafe gun handling (not safely restaged for further use)?

 

Edited July 5 by John Kloehr
Add "(or empty)"

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

 

40 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

But see also page 16:

 

"

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition(s) only

(some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm):

• Empty.
• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

"

 

The only way it would be legal to set the rifle down with the action open is if it is a bad gun. The moment the shooter returned to it, doesn't he accrue a penalty for unsafe gun handling (not safely restaged for further use)?

IMHO yes.

 

I've watched all of the comments with interest, of course.  My feeling is that regardless of TO errors, when the shooter discarded his rifle with live rounds in the magazine, that is the end of the line for the rifle.  There is NO set of circumstances, including shooter's mistaken belief regarding the possible squib, TO's statement as to whether it was or was not a squib, and any other mistaken directions given or not given by the TO, in which the shooter may pick up and shoot that gun again while on the clock, and NOT get the SDQ.

Edited July 5 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

3 hours ago, Padre De Cinco said:

I'm curious to see if my logic checks out for scenario #3.

 

1. If the TO did not give directions and the shooter didn't declare broke or squib it would be a P, shooting out of order (shooter engaged shotgun, rifle, pistol, back to rifle)

2. If the shooter declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the shooter. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

3. If the TO incorrectly declares squib or broke gun, and the shooter returns to the gun it's a SDQ because it's a discharge that is deemed unsafe by the TO. Shooter's Hand Book p.24.

 

 

PDC

sent you a PM on something unrelated 

Scout

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

On 7/5/2026 at 1:03 PM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

…the shooter putting the gun down before finishing the rifle string is a non-verbal declaration of suspected squib (or "broke gun")…

We all know that the rule requires the shooter to “declare” a malfunction.  I advise new shooters to SAY something but in practice the declaration is nonverbal, so I am inclined to agree.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm curious.

Wouldn't the shooter ALSO earn a 'P' when they picked the rifle back up and shot again?

 

..........Widder

 

Edited July 9 by Widder, SASS #59054

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I think the P is wiped out when he gets the SDQ.

[Sedalia Dave]

I was taught that unless the shooter declares the gun broke or the TO calls a squib; the gun is still in play as are all penalties. Peanut gallery doesn't count.

 

We can't assume it's broke/squib unless the Shooter or TO declares it.