WTC?

[Taos]

What's the call?

10 Rifle

There are 3 rifle targets.

In front of the 3 stationary rifle targets there are 6 rifle knock-down plates.

 

The scenario is:

Single tap any one of the rifle targets, then knock down two knock-down plates.  Then single tap a different rifle target, then knock down two knock-down plates.  Any extra rounds are to be put on the third rifle target.   Knock-down plate misses are not counted as misses, but 4 plates must be knocked down, any less are misses.  Misses on the third rifle target are misses.

 

A shooter hits one target then knocks down two knock-down plates.  Then shoots a second rifle target.  He then knocks down one knock-down plate, purposely misses the 4th knock-down plate 4 times, then knocks down the 4th knock-down plate with the 10th round.

[Cypress Sun]

Gamey but no call.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Spirit of the Game.....

[Cypress Sun]

Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Spirit of the Game.....

 

No way.

[Dantankerous]

How do you prove intent here? 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

18 minutes ago, Taos said:

What's the call?

 

purposely misses the 4th knock-down plate 4 times

If "Purposely"

That is the very definition of a

Spirit of the Game penalty.

 

The issue is "purposely"...

Short of the shooter admitting this was their choice - how do you plan to prove it was purposely done?

 

Without proof - we do not score/ assign penalty on what "we think" the shooters intention was or is.

 

We score on results; the identifiable and agreed upon outcome of their actions.

 

Within your scenario - misses on KD plates are NOT counted.

So within your scenario - under the scoring rules listed and based upon the results of the shooters actions and the absence of an admission of intent - it is a no call.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Cypress Sun said:

 

No way.

It was stated he purposely missed the target.

That's a SOG for sure.....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It was stated he purposely missed the target.

That's a SOG for sure.....

I'm going to assume the "purposely" is an opinion of the poster - not the shooters admission.

Edited July 1 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Hey, Pale Wolff Brunelle....

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Gamey but no call.

 

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Spirit of the Game.....

 

Looking at the miss flowchart to see where it leads.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammunition?

 

No, assess misses. Hmm, stage instructions state misses on knockdowns do not count, so four misses means 0+0+0+0=0.

 

Alternatively at the first question, try "yes" since the misses do not count. That leads to essentially the same question without the last four words.

 

Were all of the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?

 

Yes either way, so no further call.

 

I can't get to SOG on the flowchart without a P and I can't get to a P following the flowchart. Definitely gamey. Reminds me of a time drag racing where I was accused of racing rules instead of racing cars.

 

And that does lead me to this in the handbook:

 

"

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game).

 

"

The willful aspect might be questioned. I could see it applying for willfully missing. I just can't reach it on the flowchart. I don't even get to a P.

[El Chapo]

Maybe the stage designer should be assessed a SOG too.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

Maybe the stage designer should be assessed a SOG too.

No.

But Stage Writers need to understand.

IF you allow options to your shooters - you cannot get upset when they choose options you didn't foresee or options that you don't agree with.

 

These types of things can be avoided by simply following established standardized scoring - no one will miss "purposely" if that choice adds 5 seconds.

But because we don't want people to feel bad if they miss a knockdown target - we introduce "doesn't count as a miss" variables into the scoring. 

 

And then try to assign penalty when a shooter is smart enough to recognize the opportunity.

 

If you don't want shooters thinking outside the box - don't create an environment that encourages it.

 

And unless the shooter (stupidly) admits to it - there is no penalty for being clever.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Hey, PaleWolf Brunelle....

 

REF: Creeker's replies.

 

 

Edited July 1 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
correct spelling

[Scarlett]

I agree with @Creeker, SASS #43022.  I do not think it’s a SOG penalty because missing the target on purpose doesn’t (to ME) seem to give the shooter an advantage. It would be much more difficult AND time consuming to remember to miss 4 times THEN hit the target with the last shot rather than follow instructions and dump on the target. 
 

Hugs, 

Scarlett 

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

This reminds me of a stage we had once with a Texas Star, and 1 Stationary target for remaining pistol rounds, 1 Stationary target for remaining rifle rounds and 4 shotgun KD's. Stage instructions were, with pistols and rifle clear the Texas Star, any remaining pistol rounds on the stationary pistol target, any remaining rifle rounds on the stationary rifle target, then engage the 4 shotgun KD's in any order. Any plates remaining on the Texas Star are misses and misses on the stationary plates count as misses.

 

I was one of the last shooters and started with pistols. I shot them as fast as I could and hit one or two Star plates, then shot the first few rifle shots as fast as I could, then knocked the last start plates off and put the remaining one or two rounds on the stationary rifle plate. I then knocked down the SG targets. I was the fastest on this stage by several seconds. No one complained but our stage writer has never written a stage like that again! 🤣🤠

 

Randy

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I'm going to assume the "purposely" is an opinion of the poster - not the shooters admission.

Valid point, benefit of doubt always go to the shooter.

Without more evidence, I'll rescind my SOG call.

OP, what evidence do you have that the shooter purposely missed the target?

[John Kloehr]

19 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

... evidence ... the shooter purposely missed the target

 

Does it matter? How can you get to SOG for misses on purpose without a P per the miss flowchart? Asked another way, can you get to SOG for missing  targets on purpose without going through the miss flowchart?

 

Not disagreeing if there is a way, I'm just not getting there from the handbook quote I posted earlier. I feel I am reading more into it than it says for misses considering there is a miss flowchart which has a path to SOG..

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

Does it matter? How can you get to SOG for misses on purpose without a P per the miss flowchart? Asked another way, can you get to SOG for missing  targets on purpose without going through the miss flowchart?

 

Not disagreeing if there is a way, I'm just not getting there from the handbook quote I posted earlier. I feel I am reading more into it than it says for misses considering there is a miss flowchart which has a path to SOG..

I've seen such in an attempt to get a faster time.

I responded to the OP''s post saying the shooter purposely missed the target.

I should have asked why he thought such.....

[Null N. Void]

Poor stage writing.   Don't allow the shooter the option to miss target with no downside.  When I wright a stage with knockdowns,  I don't allow scenarios where multiple misses don't count for anything.  I generally say shoot a sequence on regular targets and the remainder on the knockdowns one for one.  I allow the shooter to make up any missed knockdowns with a shotgun.

[John Kloehr]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I've seen such in an attempt to get a faster time.

I responded to the OP''s post saying the shooter purposely missed the target.

I should have asked why he thought such.....

 

Understood. Assume the intent. Hypothetically.

 

I'm just trying to understand how to get to a SOG for misses without setting aside the miss flowchart. I can certainly see missing on purpose could fit "shooting the stage other than in the way it was intended." I could also see a respectfully presented argument the miss flowchart is specific to scoring misses. The flowchart not only does not lead to the penalty, it leads directly to "no further call."

[Captain Bill Burt]

That takes some testicular fortitude.  Probably faster and he avoids having to put 3 rounds on a target where any misses will count.  But you better hit your target with round #10.

[John Kloehr]

"shooting the stage other than in the way it was intended."

 

Thinking for another couple minutes, does this phrase either imply or require a P? The miss flowchart does require it, does the rule in the handbook require it?

 

On edit: I'm an engineer.

 

Edited July 1 by John Kloehr

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

 Normally knock downs are only scored as a miss if they are still standing at the end.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

 

Understood. Assume the intent. Hypothetically.

 

I'm just trying to understand how to get to a SOG for misses without setting aside the miss flowchart. I can certainly see missing on purpose could fit "shooting the stage other than in the way it was intended." I could also see a respectfully presented argument the miss flowchart is specific to scoring misses. The flowchart not only does not lead to the penalty, it leads directly to "no further call."

Simple, no penalty for missing. No P involved....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

"shooting the stage other than in the way it was intended."

 

Thinking for another couple minutes, does this phrase either imply or require a P? The miss flowchart does require it, does the rule in the handbook require it?

The Spirit of the Game penalty (I hate that we use the highest praise within our game as a penalty name); but anyways - is within the Miss/ Procedural flowchart as an assist when applicable to the miss/ procedural question.

 

But this type of infraction; which could be simply referred to as a DD penalty (Deliberate Disregard of expected action or engagement) encompasses many occurrences outside of the Miss/ Procedural equation.

 

An example:

A pepper popper.

And maybe one that I have a "good chance" to miss - but there is a make up target to avoid taking a miss.

So I can really try, aim and IF I hit it - it will take 2 seconds.

If I miss (more likely) - maybe 3, 3.5 including the make up time.

 

But I know I can get two rounds off in 2 seconds - so I don't "wait" to engage the popper; I instantly dump one in the air and go after the makeup immediately - and I KNOW I'm clean on it in 2 flat.

That's shooting the stage other than intended to gain an advantage.

But the flowchart doesn't cover that at all.

 

In the OP - the penalty (if applicable) would not be for the actual misses (they are a byproduct) but for the deliberate disregard of expected action or engagement.  Assuming the shooter admitted it was deliberately done.

 

And lastly - to "gain a competitive edge" does NOT necessarily have to mean a competitive edge over the other shooters - it means to gain an edge over what YOUR time would have been if you had played it straight.

Edited July 1 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Diamond Jake]

3 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

This reminds me of a stage we had once with a Texas Star,... No one complained but our stage writer has never written a stage like that again! 🤣🤠

🤠

 

Randy

 

I thought of that Texas Star stage as soon as I read the OP on this thread.  I remember after watching you, thinking "Why did I try so hard to hit them with my pistols?"

[Silver Creek Jack]

5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No.

But Stage Writers need to understand.

IF you allow options to your shooters - you cannot get upset when they choose options you didn't foresee or options that you don't agree with.

 

These types of things can be avoided by simply following established standardized scoring - no one will miss "purposely" if that choice adds 5 seconds.

But because we don't want people to feel bad if they miss a knockdown target - we introduce "doesn't count as a miss" variables into the scoring. 

 

And then try to assign penalty when a shooter is smart enough to recognize the opportunity.

 

If you don't want shooters thinking outside the box - don't create an environment that encourages it.

 

And unless the shooter (stupidly) admits to it - there is no penalty for being clever.

Dang well stated!

[Arkansas Harper SASS #33169]

The shooter did as stated in the opening post.  The four rounds he put into the dirt were not aimed at a target, the rifle never moved during the four round run, with no effort to adjust aim to hit the plate.  And this way is faster because there is no transition from the plate rack back to the rifle targets and no need to ensure that the last rifle target is the correct target for the extra rounds.. 

 

In a similar scenario shooter has to knock down two plates then put excess rounds on dump plate.  Shooter puts three rounds into the dirt, knocks down two plates then puts final 5 rounds on dump plate.  SOG?

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

If he REALLY wanted to game it, the shooter could simply eject the unwanted rounds.  Saves ammo AND time.

[Cypress Sun]

15 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

If he REALLY wanted to game it, the shooter could simply eject the unwanted rounds.  Saves ammo AND time.

 

He could...if he wanted 20 seconds added to his time. Unfired round = 5 seconds each. I would think that applies to even "no miss" targets

[mean gun mark]

stage writing matters,   i hate when you can miss the k downs but the rounds on a stationary count as misses.   IE- we have a plate rack with 6 kds, I typically give you 10 rounds to take down the 6 kds, 10 rounds fired, 6 plates down, next shooter.    9 rounds fired and 6 plates down equals 1 miss for the UNFIRED round. it's not complicated.

[John Kloehr]

14 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

In the OP - the penalty (if applicable) would not be for the actual misses (they are a byproduct) but for the deliberate disregard of expected action or engagement.  Assuming the shooter admitted it was deliberately done.

 

OK, this helps me understand how to get to SOG without the miss flowchart and without requiring an underlying P. I reviewed handbook page 11 again in light of this comment. Reading it very carefully, SOG adds to any other penalty, but no underlying penalty is required. And fully agree intent is required.

 

Quote

And lastly - to "gain a competitive edge" does NOT necessarily have to mean a competitive edge over the other shooters - it means to gain an edge over what YOUR time would have been if you had played it straight.

 

Mulling... Makes sense.

[Tennessee williams]

17 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

This reminds me of a stage we had once with a Texas Star, and 1 Stationary target for remaining pistol rounds, 1 Stationary target for remaining rifle rounds and 4 shotgun KD's. Stage instructions were, with pistols and rifle clear the Texas Star, any remaining pistol rounds on the stationary pistol target, any remaining rifle rounds on the stationary rifle target, then engage the 4 shotgun KD's in any order. Any plates remaining on the Texas Star are misses and misses on the stationary plates count as misses.

 

I was one of the last shooters and started with pistols. I shot them as fast as I could and hit one or two Star plates, then shot the first few rifle shots as fast as I could, then knocked the last start plates off and put the remaining one or two rounds on the stationary rifle plate. I then knocked down the SG targets. I was the fastest on this stage by several seconds. No one complained but our stage writer has never written a stage like that again! 🤣🤠

 

Randy

I thought you wrote that stage

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Not that one, it was at the Corral several years ago. 😂🤠

 

Randy

[Taos]

I added "deliberate" to how I described how the stage was shot because I knew that would bring on more discussion.  It did seem the shooter deliberately missed 4 times.  But, how can that be proved?  Gaming? Yeah.  Kinda sleezy gaming?  I think so.  But a no call.

 

I've seen more than a couple times a plate rack shot like this:

5 knock-down plates, 10 rounds. Extra rounds on a dump plate.

The shooter does a hit-miss, hit-miss, hit-miss, hit-miss, hit-miss, hit-dump plate.

And I did not see it questioned.