H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9 Posted June 9 Let's talk about main match revolver calibers. Setting aside .32-30, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, 38-40, .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44-40, .44 Magnum. .45 Colt and even .45 ACP. With no clarification as to which is the most popular or the "best," the above are by far the most commonly used chambering for revolvers in our game. I'd venture to say that they account for 95 to 99 percent of the main match revolvers that we are likely to see at the range on any given weekend. They are the calibers that were historically available in the guns we use, and can still be had in new guns without too much difficulty. But that's not what I want to talk about. There were "other" calibers that were available back in the day, or that can be had today, although getting them may require a special order or custom conversion work from a gunsmith, or searching high and low for an existing one on the used market. These are very much things that fall into the "niche" category. They are going to (relatively) rare, when compared to the regular calibers, but if you happen to have one revolver in such an unusual caliber, you suddenly start to desire to have more. Or, to acquire more things in oddball chamberings, just to have some thing that are different. I am speaking, I guess, at least on one level, to those who like to collect or accumulate unusual things, just because they are unusual. Calibers that would, perhaps, fall into this category would be things like .32 or .38 Colt, .38 S&W, .32 H&R, .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, and perhaps a few other vintage and modern calibers that while not common, are not unheard of in either vintage or modern revolvers that would fit into the main match category. Most of these are likely to not be available in a rifle, but some of them might be. Things more exotic like .455 Eely or .455 Webley (Which may or may not be the same cartridge, I've read that it is and that it isn't.) might also fit the bill. One off customizations in things like .22 Hornet or .25-20 do exist, although by a strict reading of the rules, would not be allowed. But from a collector standpoint, might still be interesting to some of us. Heck, if someone could somehow create a single action revolver in 56-50 Spencer, I'd be in line for one, or maybe two. So with that in mind, what unusual cartridges do you have pistols chambered for, or would you like to obtain if there was a way to do so?
TN Mongo, SASS #61450 Posted June 9 Posted June 9 Please forgive my sacrilege, but for a number of years I shot a pair of Ruger Vaqueros in 38-40. They never could hold a decent group. I'm sure the cylinder chambers or barrel throat was too tight - I never had them checked. Instead, I used the .40 S&W extra cylinders that came with them. They shot great with the .40 S&W cylinders and brass was free for the taking at my gun club. I got a lot of strange looks at the unloading table and there were several times other cowboys (incorrectly) informed me that I was shooting an illegal caliber. Some other cowboy is now "enjoying" them - he made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9 Author Posted June 9 2 minutes ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said: Some other cowboy is now "enjoying" them - he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. By "them" do you mean the pistol, or just the .40 S&W brass? And speaking of .40 S&W, I wonder if anyone ever made a single action revolver in 10mm, or if it would possible to custom make one.
TN Mongo, SASS #61450 Posted June 9 Posted June 9 The pistols. I also had a Browning 1892 in 38-40 that someone else adopted.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9 Author Posted June 9 19 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Don't forget the .41's. 😉 That's why I asked. There's no way I could remember, let alone be aware of, all the possibilities. I assume you refer to .41 Colt and .41 Magnum?
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 9 Posted June 9 24 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: That's why I asked. There's no way I could remember, let alone be aware of, all the possibilities. I assume you refer to .41 Colt and .41 Magnum? Yes. I have SA revolvers in both calibers and a Marlin 1894CCL.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9 Author Posted June 9 54 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Yes. I have SA revolvers in both calibers and a Marlin 1894CCL. Nice. I have only ever seen 1 SAA in .41 Long Colt. I have no idea how popular it was back in the day, but it is clearly an "unusual" one. Question.... What is the actual bore size? It's it the same as .38-40, or slightly larger? Now that could make for an interesting combo. One revolver with cylinders for .38-40, .40 S&W and .41 Colt. Or if it can handle it, add in 10mm and .41 Magnum. A 5 in one gun! I have no idea if .41 Magnum is .41 Colt made longer or if it is something else.
grizzly killer ,sass life 14516 Posted June 9 Posted June 9 the 41 magnum is .410 dia. the 38-40/40s&w and 10mm are 401. so it would not work as a "5 in 1"
Indy Kid, SASS #4638 Posted June 9 Posted June 9 Back in 1990 Ruger made a "Buckeye Special" Blackhawk in 38-40/ 10MM. I have one but have never used the 10MM cylinder. Here are two Buckeye Specials. The top one is a 38-40/10MM and the bottom one is a 32-20/ 32 mag.
Hessian Joe Posted June 9 Posted June 9 There are currently two Italian made single actions on the market in 10mm. Uberti has the Ursus, which has a goofy ported barrel. Second is the Cimarron Bad Boy, which looks pretty neat, but is hefty.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 9 Posted June 9 3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Nice. I have only ever seen 1 SAA in .41 Long Colt. I have no idea how popular it was back in the day, but it is clearly an "unusual" one. Question.... What is the actual bore size? It's it the same as .38-40, or slightly larger? Now that could make for an interesting combo. One revolver with cylinders for .38-40, .40 S&W and .41 Colt. Or if it can handle it, add in 10mm and .41 Magnum. A 5 in one gun! I have no idea if .41 Magnum is .41 Colt made longer or if it is something else. i'll have dig it out to verify that (very inconvenient at the moment). It's a Colt SAA mfg. in 1902: The .41 mags are Ruger Blackhawks (one is a "New Model"):
Three Foot Johnson Posted June 9 Posted June 9 460 S&W magnum, 454 Casull, 45 BPM, 450 Express, 45 Winchester Magnum, C45S, 41 Special, 357 Maximum... probably many others if I think on it a bit. The C45S, although widely used, is quite unique in that it is a wildcat cartridge that I don't believe has never had a revolver or rifle specifically chambered for it.
Elkhorn Ernie Posted June 9 Posted June 9 5 hours ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said: Please forgive my sacrilege, but for a number of years I shot a pair of Ruger Vaqueros in 38-40. They never could hold a decent group. I'm sure the cylinder chambers or barrel throat was too tight - I never had them checked. Instead, I used the .40 S&W extra cylinders that came with them. They shot great with the .40 S&W cylinders and brass was free for the taking at my gun club. I got a lot of strange looks at the unloading table and there were several times other cowboys (incorrectly) informed me that I was shooting an illegal caliber. Some other cowboy is now "enjoying" them - he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I had a set of the vaqueros in 38-40 with the .40 S & W cylinder as well. The throat of the 38 -40 cylinders were under size by about .006" (.395" instead of .401"). Had to send them in for that, and when they sent them back they said they were within speck. Only thing is when I checked them when they came back the throat was now at .401". Could not fully seat a cartridge in the cylinder before sending them in, but now I could. Ended up turning the pair into another pair of revolvers and another rifle.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9 Author Posted June 9 From smallest to largest calibers... .22 Hornet in a gun that started life as a .32-20 Bisley. Not main match legal, but very unusual for this type of a gun. .32 S&W. A tiny little gun. There is a safety notch, so you can load it with 5. Also .32 S&W, but the this gun is probably not SASS legal in ANY context. It's a 5 shot, but there is no way to lock the cylinder between chambers. In fact, you can't load it with 4 either, because when the hammer is down, the cylinder rotates freely, so there is not way for the hammer not to be down over a live round. It DOES have a rebounding hammer, allowing for safe carry, but that's not a recognized feature in our world. Not a problem, it's still a fun gun to own. This is a real 1860 converted to .32 S&W Long, making it doubly unusual. Convertible .32-20 and .32 H&R Magnum. The latter is probably not all that common. An unusual cartridge in an unusual revolver. . .38 S&W. I discovered that it will lock up between chambers. Don't know if I'll ever try it at a match, but it's not a common caliber in our game. .38-44 A very strange cartridge that the case length is the same length as the cylinder. It's essentially an elongated .38 S&W. Believe it or not, this little guy is a .38 Long Colt. And, the cylinder will lock between chambers for 5 shots. Also in .38 Long Colt. Also also in .38 Long Colt. But it won't lock between chambers, meaning it's rather impractical for main match use. The rules do allow for loaded with 4 and loading the 5th on the clock, but... Meh... And finally... Uhm, yeah... .45-70 is not what I'd call a main match legal caliber, but the gun sure is nifty. I have used it once with .45-45's but again, that's stretching what's allowed. But these are all my single action revolvers that are in calibers other than the usual suspects, some of which are main match okay, some are probably questionable, and two are honestly not, but people will laugh at them if you try. Funny thing is, I knew I had some unusual caliber guns, but until I started this specific post, I somehow didn't think of them all at once in that context. In fact, the only ones I actually purchased because they are in an odd caliber is the .22 Hornet, and the New Model 3 because the 38 S&W can be run in it safely. The others I got because I just thought they were cool guns or were wanted to add to the collection for various reasons.
Jackalope Posted June 9 Posted June 9 4 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: What is the actual bore size? It's it the same as .38-40 Yes, the bore diameter is 0.401 for both cartridges. Matter of fact, the underside of the barrels near cylinder pin on old Colt SAA 38-40s are marked .41.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 Ahem... At the moment, I feel like a nincompoop. (That's a funny word.) It seems that in my last post I used the word cylinder when meaning chambers. This was pointed out to me by a respected person, and I have corrected it. Please forgive my nincompoopiness. Or is that nincompoopery? Hmm... The former has a wavy red line under it, but that latter doesn't. Intriguing.
Leroy Luck Posted June 10 Posted June 10 One of the firearms the SHB mentions as an “other approved item” (that I believe you have in a pic) is the Nagant single action revolver. Chambered in 7.62x38R (I think). I don’t have one (don’t want one) and have never seen one. I also don’t think the 44 Colt has been listed (also don’t own one).
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 4 minutes ago, Leroy Luck said: One of the firearms the SHB mentions as an “other approved item” (that I believe you have in a pic) is the Nagant single action revolver. Chambered in 7.62x38R (I think). I don’t have one (don’t want one) and have never seen one. I also don’t think the 44 Colt has been listed (also don’t own one). You are correct on all counts. Those two revolvers in one pic are indeed Nagants. I got the first one when I first got my C&R and everyone was selling them for $69 a pop. Thought they were cool. The cartridge is indeed a very strange one. You can get loaded ammo for them that is surprisingly inexpensive, and I assume there is a way to reload that very strange cartridge. Me, I just use .32-20 brass that has been run through the Lee sizing die to fit. It won't create the gas seal, but it does work well. I personally call using .32-20 brass ".32 Nagant" but that has not caught on. The Nagant gets a bad wrap for having a terrible trigger, and the DA pull is horrific. But the SA version is actually pretty good, and I find the pistols to be well designed ergonomically. Go figure. .44 Colt is another odd duck caliber from back in the day. Just before USFA committed ritual suicide, they were briefly advertising a "series" of SAA copies in the Colt Calibers. .32 Colt, .38 Colt, .41 Colt, .44 Colt and .45 Colt. I don't know if any of them ever made it to market, but I thought it was an interesting gimmick and found myself wanting a set. Oh well.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 10 Posted June 10 Here are some .44 Colts: AFF 1851 Richards-Mason ASM 1851 Richards-Mason Cimarron (Uberti) 1872 Open Top Army
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 That AFF (What's that stand for?) looks remarkably like a real vintage Colt.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 Okay... Some earlier comments in the thread have confused me, so I am gonna ask if anyone one here can clear it up. Here is what I THINK is the correct scenario... .38-40, .40 S&W and 10mm all have a .401 diameter bullet. Thus, swapping cylinders for these three would work in the same revolver. .41 Long Colt and .41 Magnum have a .410 caliber bullet. .41 Magnum is NOT an elongated .41 Long Colt, so to use both calibers in the same revolver, you'd need different cylinders. The two groups, 40 and 41, are not "compatible" with each other. Am I correct?
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 10 Posted June 10 25 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: That AFF (What's that stand for?) looks remarkably like a real vintage Colt. American Frontier Firearms LINK to American Handgunner article by John Taffin (that one was "antiqued" by the original owner)
Jackalope Posted June 10 Posted June 10 23 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: .41 Long Colt and .41 Magnum have a .410 caliber bullet. Don't believe that statement is accurate. Since about 1894, Colt SAA revolvers chambered for .41 Long Colt have used the same barrels as the 38-40 WCF with a bore diameter of 0.400 - 0.401 inch. You could shoot .41 Long Colt through the same barrel as 38-40 WCF, 10MM and .40 S&W, but I would not expect great results shooting them through a .41 Magnum barrel. YMMV Regards, Jackalope
Buckey O'Neill , SASS Life #42761 Posted June 10 Posted June 10 I shoot a 3rd generation Colt with the barrel marked .41 COLT. I load 200 grain hollow-base bullets with .387 diameter. Came with a 38-40 cylinder also.
Nickle Posted June 10 Posted June 10 My understanding is grove diameters vary in 41 colts. 405” to 410”. I have heard of some of them being 412”. In Canada they have weird stupid gun laws so all we can buy is original antique revolvers in weird cartridges. 41 colt is one of the legal to buy cartridges. What some are doing which os legal is rechambering 41 colt to wildcat 41 special which is a short 41 magnum. This gets ridvof the heal based bullet and you can then use 41 magnum loading componets. 455 eley is the same as 455 webley mark 1. 455 webley mark 2 is a shorter case version of 455 webley mark 1. 450 boxer is just a shorter version of 455 eley
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 Okay, thanks for the clarification on the 41 Long Colt. So a 4 in 1 gun is possible, but not a 5. Nifty. Also, thanks for the clarification on the "Commonwealth" .45's They also can get confusing if you don't know. I really do sympathize with the plight of Canadian gun owners. Your law are even more convoluted than Massachusetts', and that's saying something. A couple of years ago, I looked into maybe going to a Cowboy shoot in Manitoba. It was complicated, but possible to bring my guns for a "sporting competition," but then I started reading the caliber restrictions and my head started to hurt. I bowed out.
Nickle Posted June 10 Posted June 10 17 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Okay, thanks for the clarification on the 41 Long Colt. So a 4 in 1 gun is possible, but not a 5. Nifty. Also, thanks for the clarification on the "Commonwealth" .45's They also can get confusing if you don't know. I really do sympathize with the plight of Canadian gun owners. Your law are even more convoluted than Massachusetts', and that's saying something. A couple of years ago, I looked into maybe going to a Cowboy shoot in Manitoba. It was complicated, but possible to bring my guns for a "sporting competition," but then I started reading the caliber restrictions and my head started to hurt. I bowed out. I should have been more clear. I was trying to answer more than one post at once. The colt saa in 455 eley or boxer are completely different than the 41. 450 adams is same as 450 boxer and the 455 mark 2 is longer version of the 450 boxer and the 455 eley is longer version of the mark 2 You can make all this brass fron 45 colt or cowboy special. You just have to turn down the rims and shorten the cases. The bores are bigger than 454”. A 457” round ball with 3. 5 grains of trail boss shoots perfect point of aim with 1873 factory sights and keeps all 5 shots in 4” circle at 25 yards. These original guns are stupid expensive. There is a 1873 colt in450 boxer at calgary shooting center right now for $16000
Three Foot Johnson Posted June 10 Posted June 10 3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Okay, thanks for the clarification on the 41 Long Colt. So a 4 in 1 gun is possible, but not a 5. Nifty. I'd bet there are ten or more 45 cartridges that can be shot in a .460 S&W magnum cylinder. Some are obscure and obsolete cartridges, and at least two are identical but have different designations - the .460 S&W magnum and the .45 Black Powder Magnum, differing only in smokeless vs black powder propellant. The only main match legal revolver I can think of right off would be the Magnum Research BFR .460, which is a 5-shooter, so you'd have to load 4, shoot, then load 1 more on the line. Or take the miss.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10 Author Posted June 10 45 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said: Magnum Research BFR As an aside, I considered one of these when I was wanting a .45-70 revolver. As you said, they have 5 shot cylinders, and to me, that somehow makes them look "off" dimensionally speaking. Was still wondering what to do when I stumbled across the above Phelps in the caliber. It may be a somewhat goofy looking pistol, but everything seems to be proportionally correct.
Nickle Posted June 17 Posted June 17 Since 5 shot revolvers brought up. Can a five shot percussion like a 49 colt or a manhattan revolver. could these be used in sass but load five and put hammer down between cylinders?
Three Foot Johnson Posted June 17 Posted June 17 No on the percussion '49 - it's got to be .36 cal or larger, and the Manhattan I know nothing about other than having heard the name a couple times in my life. With a .32 S&W conversion cylinder in the '49, and a 4"+ barrel... maybe... it's been discussed here before, but I don't remember the outcome. With the .32 conversion cylinder, it's no longer a percussion pistol, so as a .32 S&W, it would be legal as a main match gun, as long as it had a 4"+ barrel... I think. With a 4" or less barrel, it would be a pocket pistol, and pocket pistol can't be main match guns.
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 17 Author Posted June 17 The problem with the 49 Colt is that there is no way to lock the cylinder between chambers. The above 49 is a .38 Long Colt factory conversion. The handbook does say 5 shot revolver can be loaded with 4 and thus the fifth shot loaded on the clock. As to the "is it a pocket pistol" question, this is something that I feel the rules are ambiguous. The handbook does say that a pocket pistol can't be a converted to a main match pistol. It also says that a pocket pistol has a barrel length of 4" or less. But, no where is a minimum length listed for a main match revolver. Now, obviously we are talking single action pockets here, not the DA pockets most people use. What does "converted" mean? Based on the context and the wording, it seems that you could make the interpretation that "converting" a pocket pistol to main match would refer to one of those alluded to, but never seen, main match stages where a pocket pistol is introduced as an extra gun. If I had used the above 49 in a stage like that, (or the Merwin or the New House) then I could not use them as main match revolvers for the rest of the match. But if I used them from the get go as main match revolvers, no conversion is made. The Model 1-1/2 above is an excellent illustration of this ambiguity. It's got a 6" barrel. No way it's ever a pocket pistol. But one with a 3" barrel would be. Does that mean the long one is main match legal, but the short one is not? (Well, I mentioned why it's not in general, but I think you see the point.) Or for that matter, the Remington 63. That's a 5 shot .32 that is described as legal in the handbook. (Generically) But there is no way to argue that it is not legal for pocket side matches. Does that make it not legal for main match use?
Nickle Posted June 17 Posted June 17 9 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said: No on the percussion '49 - it's got to be .36 cal or larger, and the Manhattan I know nothing about other than having heard the name a couple times in my life. With a .32 S&W conversion cylinder in the '49, and a 4"+ barrel... maybe... it's been discussed here before, but I don't remember the outcome. With the .32 conversion cylinder, it's no longer a percussion pistol, so as a .32 S&W, it would be legal as a main match gun, as long as it had a 4"+ barrel... I think. With a 4" or less barrel, it would be a pocket pistol, and pocket pistol can't be main match guns. Hopefully this link works https://www.oldgunscanada.com/american-guns Manhattan revolvers were basically a 5 shot 51 navy but they had double the cylinder stop cutouts so the revolver could be safely set beteeen cylinders and be safe to carry. Btw some 49 colts were 6 shots Same with Manhattans. Seems to be alot of Manhattans in my area and they are way cheaper than 51 colts.
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted June 17 Posted June 17 Hey what about a 256 Mag? Although a single shot it appears to be a six shooter. Please don't flame me. Just stirring the pot ...
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