Balloon Head Brass

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

One of my favorite calibers is .38S&W.   If I ever find any vintage ammo in cool old boxes at a gunshow for a good price, I'll buy it.   If it's loaded with black or I think it might be corrosive primed, or even if it's just really old smokeless, I break it down to reload it before shooting it.

Sometimes some of the brass has balloon head cases; but here's the kicker, it's factory smokeless, and sometimes not all that old.   Now, while I do separate this stuff out to use for reloading black powder, the fact that they were loaded with smokeless by the factory makes me wonder about the old adage that you can't use balloon head cases with smokeless.

At least, for this caliber.

Anyone else ever encounter this phenomenon?  That is, factory smokeless with balloon heads in vintage cartridges?

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

Weren't some early 45acp balloon head. They were all smokeless. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

No one said you can't load smokeless you just have to watch the pressure.  The .38 S&W is a low pressure round.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

7 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

No one said you can't load smokeless you just have to watch the pressure.  The .38 S&W is a low pressure round.

You are very correct, sir.   

That extra space from the balloon head, especially in a larger cartridge, would allow you to put in more powder and thus increase pressure.   With this round, not so much so. 

That said, people here, not you, have said in this forum that you "can't" use said cases with smokeless.   Just like some have said you can't load Magtech all brass shotshells with smokeless.   

Like many "truisms" spoken here on the wire, I take them with a grain of salt.


 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Well Heck H.K.!!  You outa shoudda known ya Kant load Balloon Head cases wid smokeless.  And, iffin ya notice, MagTech are, in fact a form of bacon (Balloon Otto, Baloon)head cases.  Hence, ya also Kant load 'em wid smokeless.  One must be cautious out there in the ether, as there are lots and lots of "experts" wid keyboards what know absolutely NOTHING, but can type (sorta).  Oh, almost forgot - Expert - Noun - Ex = a Has Been, and a Spert is merely a Drip under pressure 😇

Edited May 6 by Colorado Coffinmaker
I Hate Otto

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

6 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Well Heck H.K.!!  You outa shoudda known ya Kant load Baloon Head cases wid smokeless.  And, iffin ya notice, MagTech are, in fact a form of bacon head cases.  Hence, ya also Kant load 'em wid smokeless.  One must be cautious out there in the ether, as there are lots and lots of "experts" wid keyboards what know absolutely NOTHING, but can type (sorta).  Oh, almost forgot - Expert - Noun - Ex = a Has Been, and a Spert is merely a Drip under pressure 😇

Uhm...    Okay....

I *think* I understand what you have said...

I always love posting the following picture of two Remington all brass shotshells.  They seem to be dimensionally identical to the Magtechs, inside and out, including with the balloon head.

Take a look at how the left hand one is stamped.   




So, I guess .38 S&W isn't the only vintage case I have found with a balloon head inside. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Hi H.K.,  I didn't get all the right emoji out there.  I was just funnin ya.  Sorry iffin it came atcha sideways sorta.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Sorry iffin it came atcha sideways sorta.

 

Not at all   The silly tone of your post was obvious.   

It's good to have fun.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I've got a few hundred balloon head .38 special cases that don't appear to have any BP corrosion, so I suppose it's likely they were loaded with smokeless originally.

 

I used to cut down .45 Colt balloon head cases to make .45 acp/.45 AR length cases out of for my .45 Colt revolvers because cut down solid head .45's would often bulge enough when expanded and a bullet seated to make chambering difficult. Then about 20 years ago or so, Adirondack Jack came up with the C45S. I mentioned it on a gun board once, maybe here, and somebody freaked out about cutting down "valuable old collector cases" and offered to buy the ones I had on hand and hadn't cut down yet. I think the C45S was on the market by then, so I sold them to him. Even 20-25 years ago, they weren't all that rare and I still came across them regularly.

[Savvy Jack]

Technically there are only two types of cartridge heads per this 38 special topic;

 

1. Folded Head

2. Solid Head

 

Pretty much all of the folded head cases that utilized external centerfire primers had the inside "balloon" primer pockets. However, some early solid head cases also had an inside "semi-balloon" primer pocket.

 

For example, all (commercial) 44 WCF cases were of the solid head, semi-balloon primer pocket design. Early black powder cases had fairly large inside balloon pockets, while over the years they became more and more shallow, until completely phased out by the 1960's. Even the first 44 Winchester High Velocity smokeless loads from 1903 used smokeless powder and fairly large balloon head primer pocket cases. However, the very first Milbank primed 44 WCF cases are said to have been folded cases...but quickly changed with Winchester's patented primer in early 1874 when they actually started selling the Winchester 73'.

 

Anyhow, the confusion when using smokeless powder in solid head, balloon primer pocked cases falls into play when folks are referring to solid head cases with semi-balloon primer pockets, vs folded head cases, that are externally primed (centerfire), with large balloon-head primer pockets.

 

In the illustration below, do not use smokeless powder in case's 1, 2 and 3. Use EXTREME caution when using old cases illustrated as #4, with large pockets.

 

These large pockets, as shown as #4 (solid-head, semi balloon primer pockets), can become weak and crack around the dome...nearly not visible to the necked eye. I opened the crack up for good visual reference. 

 

 

 

It is this hairline crack that can ruin your day!!

 

 

Unfortunately I do not have any 38 special cases to show as examples.

[Savvy Jack]

Oh, that case I shared above, I was using full charge black powder loads, rather than smokeless loads, when I noticed the crack during inspection.

Edited May 7 by Savvy Jack

[LonesomePigeon]

Bryan what would happen if you fired one of those cracked cases with black powder? Say with a full charge of 40 grains 3F in a 44-40 rifle or 45 Colt revolver?