Am I being too picky?

[Rattlesnake Renae]

This is a question regarding stage instructions, specifically, do stage instructions need to specify which targets are pistol and which are rifle?

 

So I am timing a shooter.  The stage instructions state "shoot the plates with pistols until down, remaining rounds on dump target, plates left standing are a miss misses on the dump are a miss. Shoot plates with rifle until down, remaining rounds on dump target, plates left standing are a miss, misses on the dump are a miss." 

 

At the beep, the shooter engaged the far rack (a cowboy rack) with his pistols. I didn't catch it until he had emptied his first gun and stated he was shooting at the rifle target. He responded that it was specified in the instructions then switched to hie rifle. He finished that rack and went to the close rack (tombstones) emptied his rifle and other pistol. Overall, a train wreck. A big handful of misses and a P for what the spotters said was shooting at the rifle targets with his pistols. The shooter and I said since it didn't specify which was which, that wasn't the P, the P came from switching guns in "mid-stream".  The match director then told me that you don't have to specify which targets are which, it is assumed the close ones are pistol and the far one are rifle. 

 

At the end of the day, the shooter still got a P, it's just why he got the P.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

We have labels above each bank of targets

 

See our last match booklet attached4-25 C Booklet.pdf

[El Sobrante Kid]

41 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Renae said:

This is a question regarding stage instructions, specifically, do stage instructions need to specify which targets are pistol and which are rifle?

 

So I am timing a shooter.  The stage instructions state "shoot the plates with pistols until down, remaining rounds on dump target, plates left standing are a miss misses on the dump are a miss. Shoot plates with rifle until down, remaining rounds on dump target, plates left standing are a miss, misses on the dump are a miss." 

 

At the beep, the shooter engaged the far rack (a cowboy rack) with his pistols. I didn't catch it until he had emptied his first gun and stated he was shooting at the rifle target. He responded that it was specified in the instructions then switched to hie rifle. He finished that rack and went to the close rack (tombstones) emptied his rifle and other pistol. Overall, a train wreck. A big handful of misses and a P for what the spotters said was shooting at the rifle targets with his pistols. The shooter and I said since it didn't specify which was which, that wasn't the P, the P came from switching guns in "mid-stream".  The match director then told me that you don't have to specify which targets are which, it is assumed the close ones are pistol and the far one are rifle. 

 

At the end of the day, the shooter still got a P, it's just why he got the P.

 

Can't agree with that, assume nothing. Specify which targets are for rifle, and which targets are for pistol. Easy to do and easily solves this problem.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Disagree with assuming which are rifle and which are pistol targets. Write up should designate with P or R which targets are which. Shots on the targets with wrong firearms are all misses.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

As Cowtown said, if you don’t designate what the targets are then they should be rifle or pistol. It is also not a “P” for rifle targets shot with a pistol, if they were designated. It’s a miss for each pistol shot on a rifle target or each rifle shot on a designated pistol target. 
 

Randy

[watab kid]

if the targets are clearly what should be shot - IE rifle or pistol , no , they should be shot correctly , if they are mixed im not going to agree because its confusing - perhaps purposeful but challenging old minds only goes so far - then it becomes abuse of the elderly 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Stage directions should be precise as to what targets are pistol and rifle. This is a no brainer for anyone writing stages.

[Chantry]

No P.  If not stated in the stage directions shooter has the option to engage the presumed rifle targets with their pistols and the presumed pistol targets with their rifle.  Even pistol rifle pistol might be acceptable depending on how vague the stage directions were.

 

It certainly isn't the fastest way to shoot a stage, but not everybody cares about time and if given the opportunity will shoot a stage differently than the typical shooter.  I've something similar on stage where the directions, intentionally vague, were put a certain number shots on each target.  The close targets I shot with the rifle and the far targets I shot with the pistols.

[Crisco]

If targets were not designated Rifle/Pistol, the only misses would be plates left standing and misses on the dump target, as stated in the instructions.  What the stage wirter thought or meant is irrelevant; you are stuck with what was written.

If those instructions are considered to be specifying a sequence where you are, then a P would be awarded for shooting a pistol after the rifle. 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Short Answer:

 

PLUS ONE fer Rye Miles.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

There are lessons for everyone in this situation.  First to the stage writer to be clear and precise.  There should be no gaps not covered by Stage Conventions to cause the reader to assume anything.

 

For the TO, make sure you understand the instruction so that you can assist the shooter.  Also keep in mind that the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.  Here the instruction to “shoot the plates” was ambiguous, so telling the shooter “you’re shooting the rifle targets” was improper coaching.  
 

My call is a “P” but offer a reshoot.  I can’t tell from the description whether there were misses (limited to plates left standing or misses on the static targets).

 

We do the best that we can while the clock is running.  The TO’s assumption that the far rack was a rifle target may have been a reasonable one but if on reflection (and careful reading of the instructions) it was in error, make it right.

 

Ordinarily telling a shooter they are shooting at the wrong type of targets is commendable since those would be misses, not just a “P” after the first target was hit.

[El Sobrante Kid]

This sounds like another case of "Back in the day I had to walk through the snow, uphill, both ways, to figure out the right targets, and you should too!"  Making stage instructions that are clear in every detail, and easy to understand, is a benefit to everyone involved.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

23 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

There are lessons for everyone in this situation.  First to the stage writer to be clear and precise.  There should be no gaps not covered by Stage Conventions to cause the reader to assume anything.

 

For the TO, make sure you understand the instruction so that you can assist the shooter.  Also keep in mind that the benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.  Here the instruction to “shoot the plates” was ambiguous, so telling the shooter “you’re shooting the rifle targets” was improper coaching.  
 

My call is a “P” but offer a reshoot.  I can’t tell from the description whether there were misses (limited to plates left standing or misses on the static targets).

 

We do the best that we can while the clock is running.  The TO’s assumption that the far rack was a rifle target may have been a reasonable one but if on reflection (and careful reading of the instructions) it was in error, make it right.

 

Ordinarily telling a shooter they are shooting at the wrong type of targets is commendable since those would be misses, not just a “P” after the first target was hit.

Lots of misses! Every pistol shot fired at a rifle target is a miss and every rifle shot at a pistol target is a miss.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Shooting at a target with the incorrect firearm in NEVER a "P" - it is a miss for each round discharged whether a hit occurs or not.

 

There is no "understood" convention that the closest targets are pistol or the further are rifle.

 

So in the absence of defined pistol and rifle targets - there are (I'm assuming) just two undefined racks of five knockdown plates and either one or two dump plates.

 

No "P" can be assigned for their target choice.

 

So where do we go from this point?

 

A.  "If" the timer stated the shooter was shooting at rifle targets (with his pistols) implying the shooter had made an error requiring correction - that is improper coaching and the shooter is entitled to a reshoot.

 

B.  But since we let the shooter complete the stage; warts and all. 

We need to properly score/ record (in case they decline the reshoot) what actually happened:

Shooter had misses.

Count misses for each round that actually missed a dump plate and misses for each plate that remains standing.

Shooter earned a "P" not for shooting the wrong targets but for not following stage instructions "Pistols until targets are down - remaining rounds on dump plate" 

Shooter broke the pistol string with rifle - shooting guns out of order.

 

The "P" is still there - but it is important to understand what infraction occurred and what is being penalized.

 

[Griff]

Target may also be designated by position on the range.  I.e., most of the ranges I shoot at are common firing lines, stage positions are often broken up by windows, doorways, or simple posts, with positions identified by descriptor or simple #.  In front of position one are five targets position 7-10 feet in front of the window.  Position 2, may also have 5 targets positioned 20-30 feet in front of it.  Position 3 may have 4 shotgun KDs arranged in front of it.

 

Instructions are likely to read:

Quote

 

10 pistol, holstered,

10 rifle staged at position 2,

4+ shotgun staged at position 3.

 

any firearm order, rifle not last;

 

Start position:  Hands on hat, at firearm position of choice.

 

Starting line:  Hey! It's confusing here!

 

At the Beep:  Engage pistols in two separate sweeps, with the rifle, repeat pistol instructions, with shotgun, engage targets until down.

 

 Mix and match in different target quantities, positions and appropriate instructions for 6 different stages.  Some stage sets may have 4 positions, mostly to incorporate split shotgun or sixgun scenarios.   Stand & deliver stages will have different problems, such as described in the OP.  Since most folks don't like them... they're rarely seen.  So don't use 'em!  Problem solved.

Edited May 4 by Griff

[watab kid]

On 5/2/2026 at 7:20 PM, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

Can't agree with that, assume nothing. Specify which targets are for rifle, and which targets are for pistol. Easy to do and easily solves this problem.

i agree unless the intent is to confuse or allow both