44-40 300 yards Sail Boat Keel Lead

[Savvy Jack]

Still gotta throw these 300 yard guys in here once in a while....it's just fun!

edited to add:

All of my 2026 targets will be shot with cast bullets cast from sail boat keel lead. As-Is, nothing added...as melted and cast. The purpose is to see how they perform in comparison to others that take a bit more pride in their cast bullet compositions!

 

44-40 target pages updated https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targets/targets-load-development/2026-targets

 

Edited April 29 by Savvy Jack

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

I don't even try to hit anything at over 100 yards any more.

[Texas Jack Black]

 My Thompson Contender pistol in 7 TCU shoots better than that at 300 yds. when I am standing.😉

[Savvy Jack]

On 4/23/2026 at 5:39 PM, Texas Jack Black said:

 My Thompson Contender pistol in 7 TCU shoots better than that at 300 yds. when I am standing.😉

 

🙂 Yeah, it always seems to be the 44-40 folks can't hit the backside of a barn with.

Those gaymore cartridges are so easy to use, even a caveman can do it. 🤣

[Nickle]

On 4/22/2026 at 7:04 PM, Savvy Jack said:

Still gotta throw these 300 yard guys in here once in a while....it's just fun!

 

44-40 target pages updated https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targets/targets-load-development/2026-targets

 

That's a really nice website you have 

[Savvy Jack]

Here is today's target. Took a couple shots for placement (scope adjusted)....then the barrage! I may try to load the video.

 

221.5gr cast sailboat lead

25.5gr Reloder 7

Velocity should be close to 1.350fps...(217gr is 1,350fps)

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26 by Savvy Jack

[Stump Water]

How much drop at 300?

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Now do it with a pistol !

 

[Nickle]

4 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

Here is today's target. Took a couple shots for placement (scope adjusted)....then the barrage! I may try to load the video.

 

221.5gr cast sailboat lead

25.5gr Reloder 7

Velocity should be close to 1.350fps...(217gr is 1,350fps)

 

 

 

 

The first 5 shots  were really really good.  So the more you shot the more it opened up.  Were you getting lead in the barrel ?

I see black powder cartridge guys on utube getting some really good groups  but I think they are cleaning between shots. 

If they had to shoot 10 shots in a row without cleaning I suspect things would fall apart for them.

[Savvy Jack]

1 hour ago, Nickle said:

The first 5 shots  were really really good.  So the more you shot the more it opened up.  Were you getting lead in the barrel ?

I see black powder cartridge guys on utube getting some really good groups  but I think they are cleaning between shots. 

If they had to shoot 10 shots in a row without cleaning I suspect things would fall apart for them.

Actually I failed to add that the numbered hits are not in sequence. The last shots were actually 1,5,3,8,7,9,6. I guess I better get the video ready.

 

No Rooster Ron, no desire...

If anything, I may extend to 500 yards as did the Stuart brothers in 1876: (but they didn't use a scope) https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targets

Edited April 26 by Savvy Jack

[Savvy Jack]

3 hours ago, Stump Water said:

How much drop at 300?

 

Just curious, what are your thoughts about your interest in the bullet drop?

[Stump Water]

14 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

Just curious, what are your thoughts about your interest in the bullet drop?

 

Just curious. 

 

When I had a '73 in 45C with 30" bbl I did some 200 yard plinking (iron sights).  Best I remember I had to hold 2-3 feet over.  That was a 255 gr. bullet at ~ 1000 fps.  My 160 gr cowboy loads?  I had no idea where they were going at that range.

[Savvy Jack]

6 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Just curious. 

 

When I had a '73 in 45C with 30" bbl I did some 200 yard plinking (iron sights).  Best I remember I had to hold 2-3 feet over.  That was a 255 gr. bullet at ~ 1000 fps.  My 160 gr cowboy loads?  I had no idea where they were going at that range.

 

Ah yes....I imagine at 300 yards it is close to 70"...I never measured it.

The reason why I asked is that many think that is considered lobbing...when in reality it only has an 11 degree impact angle (at my velocities)...not lobbing at all. Well, in comparison to the 6.5 "easyenoghforacaveman's .7 degree impact angle, I guess it is. A basketball being thrown down court at the basket has about a 60 degree impact angle....that is lobbing! When a bullet has that much unlevel travel, many things can happen before it hits the target.

 

The flatter the trajectory, the less skill it takes.

 

 

 

 

[Stump Water]

Those "less skill" cartridges certainly take some skill.  Not everybody can print a cloverleaf with three rounds way out yonder.  And no cartridge is immune to "the environment" when shooting longer ranges.  

 

My personal best is a whistlepig at a little over 400 yards with a .243 Win.  Held about a foot over and, since there was a fair breeze right-to-left, about 6" right.  

 

 

[Savvy Jack]

33 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

Those "less skill" cartridges certainly take some skill.  Not everybody can print a cloverleaf with three rounds way out yonder.  And no cartridge is immune to "the environment" when shooting longer ranges.  

 

My personal best is a whistlepig at a little over 400 yards with a .243 Win.  Held about a foot over and, since there was a fair breeze right-to-left, about 6" right.  

 

 

 

At least it is a .243!!!

[Nickle]

Slow,light, coffee can shaped cast bullets at 300 yards on a windy day can be like throwing paper airplanes.

[Nickle]

3 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

Actually I failed to add that the numbered hits are not in sequence. The last shots were actually 1,5,3,8,7,9,6. I guess I better get the video ready.

 

Have you found that at a certain range accuracy just starts dropping off?

Last year I was playing with cast bullets in my 30wcf. Kept needing more and more powder to get more range could only push cast lead traditionally lubed bullets so fast because then leading starts to become a issue. 

 I kind of lost interest in 30wcf when I found a good deal on a 45-60. 

[Savvy Jack]

20 minutes ago, Nickle said:

Have you found that at a certain range accuracy just starts dropping off?

Last year I was playing with cast bullets in my 30wcf. Kept needing more and more powder to get more range could only push cast lead traditionally lubed bullets so fast because then leading starts to become a issue. 

 I kind of lost interest in 30wcf when I found a good deal on a 45-60. 

 

I like my 1951 Winchester 94 30-30 because it is a "30-30". I always enjoyed shooting a cartridge based on it's early design...never really wanted to push anything much beyond it's intent. I guess it is just a history thing.

 

I loaded the 44-40 to test what Winchester offered over it's lifetime. I have shot 4227 loads and 200 cast at 1,700fps and hit golf balls. Several consecutive shots grouped about 6"x6" at 300 yards. I did not like the pressures and it was way beyond Winchester's factory H.V. load pressures. Those bullets were the 200gr factory Magma design. I never could get jacketed bullets to perform very well at longer ranges at H.V. pressures. I guess that died when the true 44-40 powders died.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Used my .38-40 to win the SASS nationals Long range Single shot pistol caliber event, I used 185 gr RNFP bullets cast pretty soft,  1.5 thousand over bore diameter,  Lube sized half a thousand to .410 lubed with SPG. The rifle is a Uberti Lowwall  in .38WCF. with 30 inch barrel.  Little Sister to my .40- 65 Highwall I used to win the Rifle caliber Long Range Event at the same shoot.

I have used the little .38-40 to let the ladies ring steel at 300 yards, with-out getting beat-up... And showing them they can shoot long range with-out the pain...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Savvy Jack]

4 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Used my .38-40 to win the SASS nationals Long range Single shot pistol caliber event, I used 185 gr RNFP bullets cast pretty soft,  1.5 thousand over bore diameter,  Lube sized half a thousand to .410 lubed with SPG. The rifle is a Uberti Lowwall  in .38WCF. with 30 inch barrel.  Little Sister to my .40- 65 Highwall I used to win the Rifle caliber Long Range Event at the same shoot.

I have used the little .38-40 to let the ladies ring steel at 300 yards, with-out getting beat-up... And showing them they can shoot long range with-out the pain...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

That is expected with the 38-40...especially in a carbine! I always wanted a Baby Carbine 44-40 to see if it would help the groups.

Maybe one day folks will join in with their 44-40's

[Nickle]

10 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Used my .38-40 to win the SASS nationals Long range Single shot pistol caliber event, I used 185 gr RNFP bullets cast pretty soft,  1.5 thousand over bore diameter,  Lube sized half a thousand to .410 lubed with SPG. The rifle is a Uberti Lowwall  in .38WCF. with 30 inch barrel.  Little Sister to my .40- 65 Highwall I used to win the Rifle caliber Long Range Event at the same shoot.

I have used the little .38-40 to let the ladies ring steel at 300 yards, with-out getting beat-up... And showing them they can shoot long range with-out the pain...

 

Jabez Cowboy

I'm really interested in what size paper groups you could get at 300yards with the low wall and also your 40-65? 

We're you cleaning between shots?  Smokeless? 

Where did you get a 410" h&I sizing die. I can't find any in cunuckistan

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I have been playing with my 44-40 Winchester 1866 out to 250, I accept the challenge to miss!  I'm going down that rabbit hole!

Edited April 28 by Hashknife Cowboy

[Savvy Jack]

7 hours ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

I have been playing with my 44-40 Winchester 1866 out to 250, I accept the challenge to miss!

 

either way....and it fun?

[Sedalia Dave]

11 hours ago, Nickle said:

I'm really interested in what size paper groups you could get at 300yards with the low wall and also your 40-65? 

We're you cleaning between shots?  Smokeless? 

Where did you get a 410" h&I sizing die. I can't find any in cunuckistan

 

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/parts/search/1?search=h%26%20i%20sizing%20dies

[Savvy Jack]

1870's score card

[Nickle]

6 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

1870's score card

I wonder what that group size is in inches? 

Looks bit unbelievable for a 44-40 at 300yards but maybe big rings make the group  look smaller? 

My 30-30 with 180g cast bullet was great at 200yards but after 250yards things fell apart. 

I think lightweight bullets just run out of steam and you start to get flyers. 

I had one lightweight load that shot awesome at a hundred yards but not at longer ranges. 

To get more range I just had to keep adding powder. Actually I had to switch to slow burning w748 to get the velocities up there enough for 300yards  but really the cartridge was only a 250 yard at the most cartridge as far as I was concerned.  It's windy where I live and wind drift is just crazy with these lightweight bullets. 

 

[Savvy Jack]

9 minutes ago, Nickle said:

I wonder what that group size is in inches? 

Looks bit unbelievable for a 44-40 at 300yards but maybe big rings make the group  look smaller? 

My 30-30 with 180g cast bullet was great at 200yards but after 250yards things fell apart. 

I think lightweight bullets just run out of steam and you start to get flyers. 

I had one lightweight load that shot awesome at a hundred yards but not at longer ranges. 

To get more range I just had to keep adding powder. Actually I had to switch to slow burning w748 to get the velocities up there enough for 300yards  but really the cartridge was only a 250 yard at the most cartridge as far as I was concerned.  It's windy where I live and wind drift is just crazy with these lightweight bullets. 

 

 

The score card is just an example of what was used in the 1870's at Creedmore. I changed it a little and plan on using it for the next targets I shoot. Look at the target I posted earlier. The score card is not really needed now that we have the target cameras...but it is just another hobby.

 

The scorecard example group is about a 14" group. The black bullseye is 8" and the inner ring is 16". The middle ring is 28" and the outer ring is 40"

All is explained on the website here: 1874 No. 1 target

 

This topic is to show what the 44-40 is capable of doing at 300 yards at normal pressures (13000cup) and muzzle velocities (1,325fps). the 30-30 and other cartridges are just a different beast altogether, and can't really even be used for comparisons. 

[Dapper Dave]

Having just gotten involved with 44-40, that is quite an impressive group for that distance, with that rifle and that cartridge. Yes, a 7mm will do better, so will a 5.56mm or anything else modern, but a bottleneck black powder cartridge fired from a lever action rifle? Not freaking bad at all, sir, buffalo group. 

I will have to say it this time I haven't found a load that will give me even a shouting chance to get close to that with my '73 44-40.

 

[Nickle]

2 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

 

The score card is just an example of what was used in the 1870's at Creedmore. I changed it a little and plan on using it for the next targets I shoot. Look at the target I posted earlier. The score card is not really needed now that we have the target cameras...but it is just another hobby.

 

The scorecard example group is about a 14" group. The black bullseye is 8" and the inner ring is 16". The middle ring is 28" and the outer ring is 40"

All is explained on the website here: 1874 No. 1 target

 

This topic is to show what the 44-40 is capable of doing at 300 yards at normal pressures (13000cup) and muzzle velocities (1,325fps). the 30-30 and other cartridges are just a different beast altogether, and can't really even be used for comparisons. 

What the 30-30 and 44-40 have in common with cast bullets is at 300yards accuracy goes to pieces. 

I don't know if it's because the bullets are slowing down and breaking sound barrier twice.  Example on the way up when fired and then again as bullets slow down. 

Or maybe the lightweight bullets just loose their spin at a certain range. 

Maybe it's both of these things? 

[Nickle]

29 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Having just gotten involved with 44-40, that is quite an impressive group for that distance, with that rifle and that cartridge. Yes, a 7mm will do better, so will a 5.56mm or anything else modern, but a bottleneck black powder cartridge fired from a lever action rifle? Not freaking bad at all, sir, buffalo group. 

I will have to say it this time I haven't found a load that will give me even a shouting chance to get close to that with my '73 44-40.

 

Your stock looks good . No red Uberti 

[Dapper Dave]

1988 Uberti, which means I can't short stroke it either. 

[Savvy Jack]

31 minutes ago, Nickle said:

What the 30-30 and 44-40 have in common with cast bullets is at 300yards accuracy goes to pieces. 

 

Can be true with any lead bullets in any caliber when something is not right.....ya gota figure out why....much better answered in a 30-30 topic, not a 44-40 topic.  Sometimes it is just the nature of the beast.

 

Lt Col. Townsend Whelen once spoke of such accuracy and irregular groups past 200 yards for certain calibers in 1920. Carbines (leveraction) never were designed to be used much over 100 yards...rifles out to 200 yards and the musket maybe further. Winchester did make Musket 44-40 leveraction rifles...but the 1 of 1,000 44-40 rifles were proven at 500 yards. The 30-30 was not reported to be irregular past 200 yards, but the 44 WCF and a few others were.

 

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Outdoorsman_s_Handbook/Lr1DAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA91&printsec=frontcover

 

How many consecutive shots does one have do make to satisfy the accuracy and irregularities with the 44-40 with today's components?

 

To make matters worse....go back to the 44-40 website and look at the 44 Henry Winchester Model of 1866 test trials in Switzerland.

Edited April 28 by Savvy Jack

[Nickle]

19 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

 

Can be true with any lead bullets in any caliber when something is not right.....ya gota figure out why....much better answered in a 30-30 topic, not a 44-40 topic.  Sometimes it is just the nature of the beast.

 

Lt Col. Townsend Whelen once spoke of such accuracy and irregular groups past 200 yards for certain calibers in 1920. Carbines (leveraction) never were designed to be used much over 100 yards...rifles out to 200 yards and the musket maybe further. Winchester did make Musket 44-40 leveraction rifles...but the 1 of 1,000 44-40 rifles were proven at 500 yards. The 30-30 was not reported to be irregular past 200 yards, but the 44 WCF and a few others were.

 

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Outdoorsman_s_Handbook/Lr1DAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA91&printsec=frontcover

 

How many consecutive shots does one have do make to satisfy the accuracy and irregularities with the 44-40 with today's components?

 

To make matters worse....go back to the 44-40 website and look at the 44 Henry Winchester Model of 1866 test trials in Switzerland.

Hey 30-30 and cast bullets is different than 30-30 and jacketed.  With jacketed and higher velocities I'm pretty sure I could extend my range.

In long range side matches we have to shoot 10 shots so I believe  that ultimately a ten shot group is what I should be looking for as far as a test goes. I also think 14 inch group at 400 yards wouldn't be considered very good  for a bigger cartridge like what is commonly used in Quigley matches. 

I've been chatting with you about my 30-30 because my 73 match rifle has oversized big brass bead front sight and matching open rear sight for fast up close shooting. But these sights make long range shooting pretty much impossible for me.

Anyway sorry for sharing information and trying to talk to you.

[Savvy Jack]

10 hours ago, Nickle said:

Hey 30-30 and cast bullets is different than 30-30 and jacketed.  With jacketed and higher velocities I'm pretty sure I could extend my range.

In long range side matches we have to shoot 10 shots so I believe  that ultimately a ten shot group is what I should be looking for as far as a test goes. I also think 14 inch group at 400 yards wouldn't be considered very good  for a bigger cartridge like what is commonly used in Quigley matches. 

I've been chatting with you about my 30-30 because my 73 match rifle has oversized big brass bead front sight and matching open rear sight for fast up close shooting. But these sights make long range shooting pretty much impossible for me.

Anyway sorry for sharing information and trying to talk to you.

 

1. I know nothing about the 30-30, not sure why you want to tell me about things I know nothing about.

2. 14" groups with a bigger cartridge at a Quigley match is not what this topic is about. That is what is called "off-topic"

3. If the sights you have are not for long distance shooting, then why worry about 30-30 lead bullets past 100 yards?

4. If you ever decide to get a 44-40, then maybe I might know something that can help you, or you me.

5. If someone wants to talk about Corvettes, don't get upset when they don't want to talk about Harley Davidsons.

[Savvy Jack]

Main Topic Title Changed to focus on the lead used....

 

edited to add:

All of my 2026 targets will be shot with cast bullets cast from sail boat keel lead. As-Is, nothing added...as melted and cast. The purpose is to see how they perform in comparison to others that take a bit more pride in their cast bullet compositions!

 

So far no complaints at 300 yards for the 44-40

Edited May 1 by Savvy Jack