Low power ammunition

[Don Jorge]

In Cowboy Action, we have a minimum Power factor and velocity.  Safety is one aspect of this, with squibs being dangerous, and allegedly excessively low loads can cause an even more dangerous situation.  Another aspect is the competitive standard.

In a State level match, or higher, does a chronograph have to be available should  challenging the ammunition be requested? How would a challenge be managed if no chronograph is available?   Is merely having multiple squibs adequate evidence for having sub power factor ammunition, leading to a penalty?

Does anyone recall seeing such a challenge in a Cowboy Action match?  I have not, but may not be aware of it having been done.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

They used to have these available to do these tests in early Wild Bunch Matches.

 

I haven't shot it for years, so they may lightened up some.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just stay within published load data and you're GTG.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Multiple squibs isn’t necessarily a sign of intentional low charges.  I know!!  It is however grounds for a match director to require a change of ammo.  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have never seen anyone challenge or test any ammo.

[Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968]

I have been involved in a couple

of instances where we have required the shooter to stop shooting or change to different ammo due to squibs. 
 

one incident where a cap and ball shooter was stopped due to successive/excessive chain fires. 
 

WB is the only side that I have seen a Chronograph used to check PF. 
 

Should be easier now with the technology available. 

 

Vic

[Rye Miles #13621]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I have never seen anyone challenge or test any ammo.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

As others have said WB (and only at major matches) is the only time I have seen rounds chronographed. 
I have requested three participants at both local and large cowboy matches to change ammo after a couple squibs. The ammo was identifiable both by the squib and the nearly inaudible report. Most interesting to me was that you could watch the shiny base of the bullet into the target! Two of those challenged switched and had no further issues, the other wanted it chrono’d and a match official rounded up his personal equipment and it came back as 105 gr. bullet and 490 fps avg. PF of 51.5. Still amazed it didn’t cause more problems than it did. 
Shooter didn’t want to borrow others ammo, had none of his own to switch to so self retired, cowboyed up and spotted/brassed for the remainder of the day. 
Regards 

    

Gateway Kid

[Three Foot Johnson]

We keep a compound bow and arrows in the shack. If anyone's ammo is questioned, we have the shooter and the resident Indian shoot downrange at the same time. If the arrow gets to the target first, the ammo is illegal.

[Buckshot Bear]

14 hours ago, Don Jorge said:

In Cowboy Action, we have a minimum Power factor and velocity.  

 

60 PF is a mouse fart. 

[Flying W Ramrod]

5 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said:

 

60 PF is a mouse fart. 

Not every shooter is a warthog.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Depends... 60 PF is a full-on warthog load in BP 32 S&W with an 85 grainer. 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

The only low power ammo I've seen is the stuff that doesn't push the lead pill all the way out of the barrel.  Everything else is at least mousephart power, which is SASS legal.  We have cowboys whose boolits seem to travel so slowly that I could hold the boolit by the hand and walk it to the target.  But seriously, I can actually watch it sail from muzzle to target, and can often watch the smoke trail spinning with the spinning boolit.  Very cool and would not want to change that -- you don't get that sort of entertainment every day, y'know!

[watab kid]

why would you do this ? its begging for a squib or worse , i dont get it 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I've seen shooter's pull the trigger on the next round before the ding. Also seen lead bounce back with no deformation after hitting the target. Sounded like a magnum primer and no powder.

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

When I moved from sea level to 7000 ft, many rounds that I had loaded at sea level were under powered. The rounds I have loaded here with the exact same specs work fine. Don't have a clue why,  but it happened.

[Bison Bud]

I have never seen anyone's ammo challenged at a match, but have seen some that probably should have been checked!  Frankly, I think this whole extra light load speed advantage is greatly over blown.  Yeah, we don't need to shoot Warthog/Magnum loads and recoil is indeed a factor, but we do need the consistency provided by proper target type loads with adequate velocity and enough propellant to burn consistently.  Remember that smokeless propellants need to build pressure to burn consistently and completely.  If your seeing unburned power, then chances are you need to up your load a bit.  I personally think the SASS power factor minimum is a bit too low, but that's not my call.  Good luck and good shooting to all.   

[watab kid]

ive seen a couple guns destroyed by poor relads = ill not risk the damage nor the injury unless o controlled the loading for my own ammo .i would trust scarlets 

Edited April 30 by watab kid

[Turkey Legs #48384]

At an EOT a while ago in Albuquerque, I did hear of them testing a load and they passed. Not every low power has to have a squib, watching the bullet go downrange is also an indication that something might need to be adjusted. 

[Don Jorge]

lI would bet that few people Chrono their reloads.  I speculate that they see a chart in a manual, perhaps, and just go with it.

 

We all should have ammo that is within the rules, shouldn't we?

[DukeSoprano]

Just be glad its not ICORE, my club hosted the Central US Regional last weekend and I am a Range Officer, part of my job was shooting everyones revolver with the Chrono, BUT this year the rules changed so I had to pull a bullet from everyone and weigh them. 120 PF for minor, 155 for Major

[Three Foot Johnson]

I had my ammo challenged two years back by a shooter on another posse on a different stage, claiming my .38 spl's didn't meet the smoke standard. I was in a safety bay effecting a quick fix on my rifle before I shot, where he confronted me about it, then trotted over to the active stage we were shooting and told the posse marshal he needed to disqualify me for illegal ammo. He may have went to the match director after that, I don't know, but nothing came of it. I doubt the range had a "smoke standard check round" to compare with it anyway. That was the first and only time I've had my ammo challenged in 34 years of shooting CAS.

[Turkey Legs #48384]

3 hours ago, Don Jorge said:

lI would bet that few people Chrono their reloads.  I speculate that they see a chart in a manual, perhaps, and just go with it.

 

We all should have ammo that is within the rules, shouldn't we?

I totally agree!

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

5 hours ago, DukeSoprano said:

Just be glad its not ICORE, my club hosted the Central US Regional last weekend and I am a Range Officer, part of my job was shooting everyones revolver with the Chrono, BUT this year the rules changed so I had to pull a bullet from everyone and weigh them. 120 PF for minor, 155 for Major

 

That is SOP at level 2 and above matches even with hundreds of shooters in USPSA,IDPA and even ICORE. They also check to see if safeties function on guns and divisions that require it. They weigh bullets and chronograph the velocities to make sure you make power factor. Occasionally a smaller Level 2 match might not run the chrono but they don't tell you in advance.

[Shawnee Hills]

The extremely low PF in Cowboy combined with the seemingly nonexistent risk of ammo being tested at a match invites problems.  There will always be competitors that run the ragged edge of legality in order to gain an advantage.  For loads that barely meet the PF, a change in environmental conditions can result in squibs that, in the very least, waste a bunch of match time.  It's disruptive and disrespectful to fellow shooters.

 

SASS really needs to consider raising the PF to a realistic level and encourage more use of a chrono.  Raising the PF gets loads further away from squibland and shooters will be more likely to meet the minimum if they can expect to be tested.  As previously mentioned, testing is performed during the matches of many other shooting sports so why should anyone expect SASS to be different?

 

On 4/22/2026 at 9:42 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Just stay within published load data and you're GTG.

Probably but also realize that data is only accurate for the particular gun and environmental conditions from which it was gathered.  Individual results are likely to be much different but a shooter will never know unless they test with a chronograph.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

The extremely low PF in Cowboy combined with the seemingly nonexistent risk of ammo being tested at a match invites problems.  There will always be competitors that run the ragged edge of legality in order to gain an advantage.  For loads that barely meet the PF, a change in environmental conditions can result in squibs that, in the very least, waste a bunch of match time.  It's disruptive and disrespectful to fellow shooters.

 

SASS really needs to consider raising the PF to a realistic level and encourage more use of a chrono.  Raising the PF gets loads further away from squibland and shooters will be more likely to meet the minimum if they can expect to be tested.  As previously mentioned, testing is performed during the matches of many other shooting sports so why should anyone expect SASS to be different?

 

Probably but also realize that data is only accurate for the particular gun and environmental conditions from which it was gathered.  Individual results are likely to be much different but a shooter will never know unless they test with a chronograph.

There's a reason why loading books/manuals have a minimum/maximum load data. 

You should never go lower or higher than what the book shows. Yes, there is some variation in data from one book to another. 

Most of the published load data comes from a ballistic lab with special pressure test 'guns'.

The temperature and altitude plays a big part when using a consumer grade chronograph. 

Powder can, and often times does, vary a good bit from lot to lot.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It's been openly discussed here that some use the minimum load data from manufacturers or loading manuals as a starting point and see how far below that gives acceptable results. Couple that with the number of reloaders here who never chrono their loads.

[Shawnee Hills]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You should never go lower or higher than what the book shows. Yes, there is some variation in data from one book to another.

Good rule to follow but it's frequently done with CAS loads resulting in underpowered loads.  I've always found it strange that the PF doesn't coincide with light book loads.

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Most of the published load data comes from a ballistic lab with special pressure test 'guns'.

Special test 'guns' are used for determining published pressure data but not necessarily velocity.  Load data for a given caliber will usually identify the firearm used to obtain that data.  These are normally consumer-grade firearms.

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The temperature and altitude plays a big part when using a consumer grade chronograph. 

Powder can, and often times does, vary a good bit from lot to lot.

Solid points for the need to test loads using a chronograph.  Generally speaking, no one will have access to lab-grade equipment so using a consumer-grade chrono is as good as you're going to get.  Still, they're pretty darn good at what they do and much better than assuming the published velocity is what one is getting out of their firearm.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

Good rule to follow but it's frequently done with CAS loads resulting in underpowered loads.  I've always found it strange that the PF doesn't coincide with light book loads.

Special test 'guns' are used for determining published pressure data but not necessarily velocity.  Load data for a given caliber will usually identify the firearm used to obtain that data.  These are normally consumer-grade firearms.

Solid points for the need to test loads using a chronograph.  Generally speaking, no one will have access to lab-grade equipment so using a consumer-grade chrono is as good as you're going to get.  Still, they're pretty darn good at what they do and much better than assuming the published velocity is what one is getting out of their firearm.  

Research the number of SASS guns damaged, because of 'fly-fart' level loads(below the published data)that become a squib and a second or third round is fired.

It's nutz! 

 

[Vail Vigilante]

20 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I had my ammo challenged two years back by a shooter on another posse on a different stage, claiming my .38 spl's didn't meet the smoke standard. I was in a safety bay effecting a quick fix on my rifle before I shot, where he confronted me about it, then trotted over to the active stage we were shooting and told the posse marshal he needed to disqualify me for illegal ammo. He may have went to the match director after that, I don't know, but nothing came of it. I doubt the range had a "smoke standard check round" to compare with it anyway. That was the first and only time I've had my ammo challenged in 34 years of shooting CAS.

I have found over the years and in many types of shooting competitions there are people who build getting others in trouble or DQd into their "stage plan". They can memorize every rinky-dink sub-section of sub-paragraph of some obsucre thing.  I think if they spent that time learning to actually shoot well they would be better off. It was not you, or your ammo, in all probability.

Edited April 29 by Vail Vigilante
I cant spell

[El Chapo]

All my major match loads are a full 38 case of APP and a 125 grain bullet. Bring on the chrono! 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I had a competitor on a Plainsman match complain that my 38 Special rifle ammo was illegal.  I told him to take $50 and lodge a formal complaint with the Match Director.  He never pulled out $50 and that was the end of that accusation.  

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

4 hours ago, El Chapo said:

All my major match loads are a full 38 case of APP and a 125 grain bullet. Bring on the chrono! 

 

No chrono for black powder categories. Just meet the smoke standard.

[watab kid]

ive shot a lot of state matches over the last 20 years and never seen a chrono but have seen squibs 

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

I'm sure we've all shot with a local somewhere that always has loads so on the edge that they have at least 1 squid or backed out primer during the match, many suggest they need to bump up their load....next match, same story.