A funny What's the Call question.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

One of the shotgun targets throws a popper that you try to shoot.   If you miss it, you "make it up" with a stationary shotgun target plate that you shoot after you finish the string.

Shooter, me, is using a single barrel shotgun.   Popper goes flying.  By the time I get the gun reloaded, the target has fallen back to the ground, but amazingly, it did not break.   So I shot it where it lay and pulverized it.

They still made me take the makeup.   In truth, even though people laughed when I hit the target on the ground, I think that was the correct call.   But I did good naturedly protest, saying, "But I hit it!"  

So who was right?   Did I need to take the make up target, or did smoking the target on the ground "count?"

I also have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...

[Texas Jack Black]

 What did the instructions say. If it said shoot the flyer it could be said the clay was designated as the flyer. This could be interesting. As you did hit the target.🙃

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 What did the instructions say. If it said shoot the flyer it could be said the clay was designated as the flyer. This could be interesting. As you did hit the target.🙃

 

 

I don't remember the exact wording, but it did say if you "miss" you can make it up with the make up target.

[Texas Jack Black]

5 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I don't remember the exact wording, but it did say if you "miss" you can make it up with the make up target.

 You did not miss the target stand by this should bring out the rule fanatics.😉

[Griff]

12 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 You did not miss the target stand by this should bring out the rule fanatics.😉

Not a rule fanatic, but possibly a semantic fanatic.  Instructions are almost immaterial.  What is a "flyer".  Shooting a former flyer that is stationary on the ground is not the same thing as shooting a flyer in the air.  You have a finite amount of time during which you're able to shoot a flyer.   Once it lands on the ground, you missed that opportunity... or more simply put, you missed the flyer.  Ergo, shoot the make-up target.

Edited March 31 by Griff

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

If the clay target is on the ground it is no longer a "flyer".

[Texas Jack Black]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Not a rule fanatic, but possibly a semantic fanatic.  Instructions are almost immaterial.  What is a "flyer".  Shooting a former flyer that is stationary on the ground is not the same thing as shooting a flyer in the air.  You have a finite amount of time during which you're able to shoot a flyer.   Once it lands on the ground, you missed that opportunity... or more simply put, you missed the flyer.  Ergo, shoot the make-up target.

 Where in the rule book that we all MUST follow does it state that.

Now remember this is a for fun thread.

2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If the clay target is on the ground it is no longer a "flyer".

 It was designated as a flyer.😁

[John Kloehr]

So are these a bunch of not airplanes?

 

 

But as to the question, common sense says shoot it in the air.

[Earl Brasse, SASS #3562]

Sport is shooting it in the air, meat hunting is shooting it on the ground, lol.

[Griff]

2 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Where in the rule book that we all MUST follow does it state that.

Now remember this is a for fun thread.

 It was designated as a flyer.😁

 

1 minute ago, John Kloehr said:

So are these a bunch of not airplanes?

 

 

But as to the question, common sense says shoot it in the air.

Just the the clay target in this scenario, the planes shown in the photo, both meet their descriptive names whether they're in the air or on the ground, ...but when resting on the ground, neither is a "flyer".  

[Texas Jack Black]

26 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

Just the the clay target in this scenario, the planes shown in the photo, both meet their descriptive names whether they're in the air or on the ground, ...but when resting on the ground, neither is a "flyer".  

 Read the box that the clay targets come in yup, they are called flyers. I rest my case.😉

 

26 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

Just the the clay target in this scenario, the planes shown in the photo, both meet their descriptive names whether they're in the air or on the ground, ...but when resting on the ground, neither is a "flyer".  

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Just for record, I do think them telling me to shoot the makeup was the correct call.   I only shot at the landed target for fun to begin with.   If I recall correctly, I had to shoot the second round anyway, so I tried to hit the no longer flying target.
 

This reminds me of a time years ago at a completely different club.   There were 2 falling SG targets that launched a flier, and 2 targets on stands.  The stage instructions said, "Shoot any 6 of the 8 shotgun targets, any order."   Most pards shot the first falling target, and went after the flier.  Then they shot the second falling target and went after the second flier.   Then they would go after as many of the ones on stands as needed.   A couple of guys went for the 4 on stands first and then one of the falling/poppers, ignoring the other one as unneeded.   Oh, the stage instructions said that 97's could have their magazines stoked on the clock at shooter discretion.

After watching a few folks shoot the stage, I went up to the line, loaded up my 97, shot the first falling target, the second falling target and the four on stands before the 2 fliers hit the ground.   After finishing the string, it ended with pistols, I could hear the scorer and timer operator and spotters having a confused conversation along the lines of, "Can he do it that way?  Was that legal?  He did hit 6 targets, and it says ANY six in ANY order.   I wrote the stage.  It never occurred to me that someone would try it that way.  But it does satisfy the instructions as written.  Etc..."
The final verdict was the I found a creative way to shoot the scenario that was according to the instructions as written.  I was congratulated for thinking of it, and yes, a few folks after me tried it the same way.   I can't remember if it was said that it would not be written that way again or not.

But it was fun.

Edited March 31 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Griff]

49 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Read the box that the clay targets come in yup, they are called flyers. I rest my case.😉

Hmmm... does the box happen to say "White Flyer"?  Were the targets white?  What about the orange ones...?  So... because a box of targets is produced by a company named White Flyer, we're to believe they're flyers whether in the air or on the ground?  A  rather fanciful stretch of the imagination.  I believe that few folks, regardless of their native language would accept that a target that is not flying thru the air is a "flyer."

Edited March 31 by Griff

[John Kloehr]

Interesting idea still, and there are some shotgun sports where it would still be a valid target if not broken on landing. But to the extent we might trust AI more than @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, those exceptions do dissapear when asking about this sport:

 

Prompt (my bad grammar)

In cowboy action shooting, does a clay which hits the ground but does not break still a valid target

 

Answer:

 

In Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS), governed primarily by the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS), a clay target that hits the ground without breaking is typically scored as a Miss, and it is no longer a valid target to be engaged. 

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While individual match directors can set specific stage rules, the standard governing principles are as follows:

 

Scoring and Engagement Rules

• "Lost" Target: Once an aerial clay (flyer) touches the ground unbroken, it is considered "down" or "lost". You cannot "cleanup" or shoot a clay that is sitting stationary on the dirt unless the stage description explicitly defines it as a stationary target.
• The "Miss" Penalty: In CAS, a miss on a clay bird (or any reactive target) adds a 5-second penalty to your raw time.
• No Re-engagement: Standard rules for knockdown or reactive targets generally state that once they have performed their "action" (like falling or landing), they may not be re-engaged.
• Broken on Impact: If a clay hits the ground and breaks due to the impact (not your shot), it is still scored as a Miss. Only a "visible piece" broken off by the shooter's lead or shot counts as a hit. 
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Exceptions and Variations

• Rabbit Targets: Some stages use Rabbit targets, which are specifically designed with a reinforced rim to roll and bounce along the ground. These are valid targets while they are moving. Once they come to a complete stop, they are usually treated as "lost" if not broken.
• Pop-Up Clays: Some stages feature a "popper" (a steel target) that, when hit, launches a clay bird into the air. In this scenario, the clay must be hit while in flight to count as a "hit."
• Static Clays: Occasionally, match directors use clays as static targets (propped up on a stand or stuck in a board). In this case, the target remains valid until it is physically broken or the shooter moves to the next firing position.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

...but when resting on the ground, neither is a "flyer".  

Here is a (frequent) flyer resting on the ground watching a plane take off... 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

What about one of these Flyers?

[doc roy l. pain]

You all must have more stuff running through your minds at night than Stephen King. 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If the clay target is on the ground it is no longer a "flyer".

Is a bird on the ground no longer a bird? 😀 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I sometimes enjoy these occasional pedantic semantic antics. 🙃

 

(Especially after dealing with the third phone call regarding assessment of a SOG penalty that escalated to a possible MDQ during discussion.) 😠

[John Kloehr]

23 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

You all must have more stuff running through your minds at night than Stephen King. 

Stephen King does have a lot of dark stuff running through his mind, I prefer his humorous brother Joe.

[Texas Jack Black]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Just for record, I do think them telling me to shoot the makeup was the correct call.   I only shot at the landed target for fun to begin with.   If I recall correctly, I had to shoot the second round anyway, so I tried to hit the no longer flying target.
 

This reminds me of a time years ago at a completely different club.   There were 2 falling SG targets that launched a flier, and 2 targets on stands.  The stage instructions said, "Shoot any 6 of the 8 shotgun targets, any order."   Most pards shot the first falling target, and went after the flier.  Then they shot the second falling target and went after the second flier.   Then they would go after as many of the ones on stands as needed.   A couple of guys went for the 4 on stands first and then one of the falling/poppers, ignoring the other one as unneeded.   Oh, the stage instructions said that 97's could have their magazines stoked on the clock at shooter discretion.

After watching a few folks shoot the stage, I went up to the line, loaded up my 97, shot the first falling target, the second falling target and the four on stands before the 2 fliers hit the ground.   After finishing the string, it ended with pistols, I could hear the scorer and timer operator and spotters having a confused conversation along the lines of, "Can he do it that way?  Was that legal?  He did hit 6 targets, and it says ANY six in ANY order.   I wrote the stage.  It never occurred to me that someone would try it that way.  But it does satisfy the instructions as written.  Etc..."
The final verdict was the I found a creative way to shoot the scenario that was according to the instructions as written.  I was congratulated for thinking of it, and yes, a few folks after me tried it the same way.   I can't remember if it was said that it would not be written that way again or not.

But it was fun.

 This is just a bit of wire  fun🙃

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I sometimes enjoy these occasional pedantic semantic antics. 🙃

 

(Especially after dealing with the third phone call regarding assessment of a SOG penalty that escalated to a possible MDQ during discussion.) 😠

👍🏼

[Texas Jack Black]

2 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

You all must have more stuff running through your minds at night than Stephen King. 

 We are taking lessons from ALPO😁

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

You all must have more stuff running through your minds at night than Stephen King. 

Well, I have (self) published 6 novels.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 We are taking lessons from ALPO😁

 

The Wire denizens may not know who Alpo is! 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

 

The Wire denizens may not know who Alpo is! 

Wasn't that the dog food endorsed by Ben Cartwrite?