wtc

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

This is just for my information and not trying to cause a big debate, stage description states shoot targets in a double tap Z, 2 shots on top left, 2 on top right 2 on the middle 2 left bottom left finish with 2 on the right bottom. Shooter starts first 2 on left top then aims at middle target and misses, TO tells him top right, shooter corrects himself puts the next shot on right top and continues with the correct sequence, shooter even jokes glad I missed. I though this was a P as shooter clearly aimed at the middle target but missed, and shooter was awarded a miss as the argument was you can't judge shooters intent. What should have been the call this is the 1st time I have heard this argument; I don't think anyone intends to shoot a stage wrong. Again this is just for my clarification and not intended to call anyone out or start an argument! 

Rafe

[Boggus Deal #64218]

A miss can’t cause a P. One miss. Next shooter, please.

[John Kloehr]

Follow the flow chart. 1 miss, next shooter. I find the flow chart incredibly helpful. Without it, just reading the rules, I get led into the same thought trap you ran in to. Here is scoring by the flowchart:

• Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammunition? No
• Assess misses (1 miss)
• Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? Yes
• No further call

 

Edited March 22 by John Kloehr
Undid edit, see the chart.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Ok thanks, just wanted  to know for my own sanity. Not that I have a lot of it left.

Rafe

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

That stage is a 'P' trap.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

It was a pretty  straight forward  stage,  double tap the top 2 targets left to right double tap the middle  then bottom  2 left to right double tap, my big confusion was shooter aimed at the middle  target and missed then  when coached bt TO to that the target  was top right and an audible  reaction by shooter of "oh ya" that's where I  thought it was a p. I've read the rule book and taken a ro class, guess I need to download the flow chart

Edited March 23 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[El Sobrante Kid]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Follow the flow chart. 1 miss, next shooter. I find the flow chart incredibly helpful. Without it, just reading the rules, I get led into the same thought trap you ran in to. Here is scoring by the flowchart:

• Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammunition? No
• Assess misses (1 miss)
• Where the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? Yes
• No further call

 

 

Is there a .PDF or .DOC downloadable Flow Chart??? Thx

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

All I can find is a miss flow chart is there a procedure flow chart? I know we can't remember all the rules I'm just trying to be the best to/spotter i can be. So if he hit the middle target it would have been a p but since he missed it's just a miss no procedural?

Edited March 22 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

34 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Is there a .PDF or .DOC downloadable Flow Chart??? Thx

In the back of the PDF version of the Shooter's Handbook.   good luck, GJ

[John Kloehr]

36 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

Is there a .PDF or .DOC downloadable Flow Chart??? Thx

It is page 44 of my downloaded pdf copy. At the moment, the top sass net.com website seems to be off-line, but the current manual should be one click away from:

 

https://sassnet.com/the-shooting/cowboy-action-shooting/handbooks-rules

Edited March 22 by John Kloehr

[Flying W Ramrod]

As I understand, he hit top left twice, top right once (with a miss), middle twice, bottom left twice and bottom right twice.

Miss only.

[John Kloehr]

12 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

All I can find is a miss flow chart is there a procedure flow chart? I know we can't remember all the rules I'm just trying to be the best to/spotter i can be. So if he hit the middle target it would have been a p but since he missed it's just a miss no procedural?

I do not know of a procedure flow chart, but yes, I think the bolded part is what makes the difference. Unless there was something about target placement which made the miss on the intended target hit the unintended target. Paraphrasing the rules to my vague understanding, target placement is to allow for a clean miss.

[Flying W Ramrod]

 

Here it is. Follow the entire flow chart to find P's

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

There is NO procedural flow chart.   The decision to make is: Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?  as called out in the Miss Flow Chart.  

 

Since we do not try to read the shooter's intent, the targets are in a close array (giving not much hint which was being aimed at), and we have the rule of thumb that "a miss cannot cause a P," then the miss was considered an engagement of the correct target.

 

Other procedurals are invoked by the context of the shooter's actions, and not needing a sequence to define by a diagram, as they all stand independently, and shooter only has to have committed one to be awarded a P.  No multiples.

 

good luck, GJ

[Griff]

15 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

That stage is a 'P' trap.

Why?  I don't see it.  

[Widder, SASS #59054]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

Why?  I don't see it.  

 

I don't see it as a 'P' trap either UNLESS..... the shooter is defining the letter 'Z' in Arabic or Hebrew.....

 

..........Widder

 

[Ciderbarrel]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

Why?  I don't see it.  

If the targets are too close together, the shooter does not get a chance of a "clean miss".

 

Missing the wrong target is 5 seconds. Missing the correct target and hitting a target right next to the correct one, imor directly behind or in front, is a P.

 

Hence, a P trap.

 

Obviously it has to be the opinion of the TO, and this should be caught and addressed in thr pre-shoot walk-through, but this should be a No Call, not a P.

 

It does not matter what the spotters say, only the TO can declare a P.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

Why?  I don't see it.  

 

20 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I don't see it as a 'P' trap either UNLESS..... the shooter is defining the letter 'Z' in Arabic or Hebrew.....

 

..........Widder

 

Just going by the instructions, seeing the target layout could well change my feeling. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

4 minutes ago, Ciderbarrel said:

If the targets are too close together, the shooter does not get a chance of a "clean miss".

 

Missing the wrong target is 5 seconds. Missing the correct target and hitting a target right next to the correct one, imor directly behind or in front, is a P.

 

Hence, a P trap.

 

Obviously it has to be the opinion of the TO, and this should be caught and addressed in thr pre-shoot walk-through, but this should be a No Call, not a P.

 

It does not matter what the spotters say, only the TO can declare a P.

Possibly I missed something in the original post, but I don't see anything to indicate that the targets were too close together to get a clean miss? I don't see a "P" trap?

 

Randy

[Griff]

21 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Just going by the instructions, seeing the target layout could well change my feeling. 

In it's most simplistic form, I see the following as the layout.

 

Quote

 

shoot targets in a double tap Z,

2 shots on top left,

2 on top right

2 on the middle 2 left bottom left

finish with 2 on the right bottom.

 

At the Bar-3, T-Bone had a target array very much like this, but with additional targets to make it 3 rows of three.  Often using different instructions using the same array.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

In it's most simplistic form, I see the following as the layout.

 

At the Bar-3, T-Bone had a target array very much like this, but with additional targets to make it 3 rows of three.  Often using different instructions using the same array.  

That's so easy, even I could follow it. 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Thanks Griff, this is exactly the layout, about 1-2 feet between targets and a 2 foot step down between target lines, no p trap from what I saw. targets set up provided enough space for a clean miss, my only question was I was behind the shooter so I had a plain view of where his muzzle was pointed and shooters audible "glad I missed" that is where I thought it was a P, but as stated a miss can't cause a P, I would have called the P on myself but I'm only in this game for fun not the golden Cadillac or million dollar check.

Rafe 

Edited March 23 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

2 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Thanks Griff, this is exactly the layout, about 1-2 feet between targets and a 2 foot step down between target lines, no p trap from what I saw. targets set up provided enough space for a clean miss, my only question was I was behind the shooter so I had a plain view of where his muzzle was pointed and shooters audible acknowledgment as aiming at the wrong target  and "glad I missed" that is where I thought it was a P, but as stated a miss can't cause a P, I would have called the P on myself but I'm only in this game for fun not the golden Cadillac or million dollar check.

Rafe 

He was correct and lucky that he missed it as we can't judge what he intended to do, only what actually happened. I like this discussion and most WTC's as they make us think what we would do at the spur of the moment. I've told lot's of folks in RO classes that I can almost always make the correct call, Tomorrow, after I've had time to go home and reread the handbooks, check flow charts and Glossary of Terms. 🤠

 

Randy

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

5 hours ago, Ciderbarrel said:

If the targets are too close together, the shooter does not get a chance of a "clean miss".

 

Missing the wrong target is 5 seconds. Missing the correct target and hitting a target right next to the correct one, imor directly behind or in front, is a P.

 

Hence, a P trap.

 

Obviously it has to be the opinion of the TO, and this should be caught and addressed in thr pre-shoot walk-through, but this should be a No Call, not a P.

 

It does not matter what the spotters say, only the TO can declare a P.

Sort of....

 

Timer Operator (TO) –is in charge of the firing line as long as he/she is running the timer and has the primary objective to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire.   SHB P22 re Timer Operator

 

Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.  Three spotters are required – majority (2/3) breaks any ties in regard to misses. SHB P22 re Spotters

 

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed.  The scope of assessing penalties includes safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder categories.  The TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses).  Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters. SHB P24/25 assessing penalties

 

My commentary..... While the TO is the official authority to report a P to the scorekeeper, and can assess the procedural on their own, upon polling the spotters they (the spotters) can indeed call a P, upon being questioned by the TO and reporting their observations. While the TO could override his/her spotters that would be unlikely (especially if the spotters were certain) as that would likely undermine the spotters confidence in the TO as it would be calling into question their abilities, especially if there were two or more identifying the P.

Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Thanks everyone, I try to make sure I give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, when I get done shooting for the day I go through every call I made as a to or a spotter, often going through the rule book or looking through the sass wire to make sure I did the right thing or if I messed up to make sure that I don't do it again. I do the same thing in my job as a teacher. 

This one stumped me so I figured that there are a lot more better knowledgeable shooters out there. 

Rafe

[Waimea]

This caught my eye probably bc I saw the double tap Z in the thread preview. When I read the post, one thing came to mind:

Sure glad I missed.

🙂

 

Thank you for being so conscientious! 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

 

 

Edited March 24 by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

[Rye Miles #13621]

On 3/22/2026 at 10:48 AM, Griff said:

Why?  I don't see it.  

 

On 3/22/2026 at 2:26 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I don't see it as a 'P' trap either UNLESS..... the shooter is defining the letter 'Z' in Arabic or Hebrew.....

 

..........Widder

 

Looks pretty straight forward to me. We’ll have to try this at Firelands! 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

11 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Thanks branchwater explained it so even I can understand.

Rafe