frontier cartridge

[Burn Through]

What shotguns are legal ? and if there is any main  match shotgun not legal why is that ?

[Bingo Montana]

SHB, pg. 10 "Must use a side-by-side, single shot, or lever action shotgun in the main match stages."

 

See page 39 & 40 for more information on Shotguns.

 

 

Edited March 19 by Bingo Montana

[La Sombra]

26 minutes ago, Bingo Montana said:

SHB, pg. 10 "Must use a side-by-side, single shot, or lever action shotgun in the main match stages."

 

See page 39 & 40 for more information on Shotguns.

 

 

Yeah, that 97 doesn’t cut it. Ask me how I know? 
 

La Sombra

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

1 hour ago, Bingo Montana said:

SHB, pg. 10 "Must use a side-by-side, single shot, or lever action shotgun in the main match stages."

 

See page 39 & 40 for more information on Shotguns.

 

 

Any of one of the ones mentioned above will work.  I may add, you can use an exterior hammer side by side too.  I use hammerless SxS, works for me.

[Burn Through]

I just wonder why no 97 ??  I might see if this is something as a whole we would consider changing to allow the 97 .

[Ya Big Tree]

 

If you have a side by side that has automatic ejectors you can disable the auto eject and use the shotgun. 

Edited March 19 by Ya Big Tree

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

2 hours ago, Burn Through said:

I just wonder why no 97 ??  I might see if this is something as a whole we would consider changing to allow the 97 .

Perhaps because Winchester designed the 1897 shotgun to handle smokeless ammo?

 

A black powder shooter in my area shoots a ‘97 sometimes.  He simply signs up for a different category since black powder ammo is legal in all categories.

[Burn Through]

I am going to ask my T governor his opinion then see if he will ask for a change . I can’t think of a speed advantage for most over a light weight single trigger sxs 

[July Smith]

48 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

I am going to ask my T governor his opinion then see if he will ask for a change . I can’t think of a speed advantage for most over a light weight single trigger sxs 

I wouldn't mind seeing a rule change to allow a 97 in frontier cartridge. 

 

I'd also like to see a rule change to allow 87 and 97 shooters to load/stoke the gun with 4+ shells on the clock.  Not looking for a time advantage, just want to be able to shoot the gun how it was supposed to be shot, not as a glorified single shot.

 

 

Edited March 19 by July Smith

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

2 hours ago, Burn Through said:

I am going to ask my T governor his opinion then see if he will ask for a change

Frontier Cartridge is supposed to be guns and ammo, powder as in BP,  that were used prior to the arrival of modern guns. Like 97's. You can try to get your TG to change it. But it won't happen.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

2 hours ago, July Smith said:

I'd also like to see a rule change to allow 87 and 97 shooters to load/stoke the gun with 4+ shells on the clock.  Not looking for a time advantage, just want to be able to shoot the gun how it was supposed to be shot, not as a glorified single shot.

 

Then you just eliminated all the shooters that shoot SXS in the same category. Loading 4 in a 87/97 would be a definite time advantage.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

A good ol 87 will fit the bill

[July Smith]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Then you just eliminated all the shooters that shoot SXS in the same category. Loading 4 in a 87/97 would be a definite time advantage.

How so?  The shotgun would still start open and empty.  The loading would still be on the clock.  I strongly disagree that 87/97 shooters would eliminate SxS shooters.  I have shot a number of stages that in the writing specifically allow for stoking 87/97s on the clock and the SxS shooters were at no disadvantage.   

[Griff]

5 hours ago, July Smith said:

I wouldn't mind seeing a rule change to allow a 97 in frontier cartridge. 

 

I'd also like to see a rule change to allow 87 and 97 shooters to load/stoke the gun with 4+ shells on the clock.  Not looking for a time advantage, just want to be able to shoot the gun how it was supposed to be shot, not as a glorified single shot.

It might not be an advantage.  Back when I was a practiced-up "Black Powder" shooter, using my Stoeger, I could run it faster than almost any '97 shooter stoking their '97 on the clock.  More importantly... the Frontier Cartridge category was established on the basis that it was for Black Powder shooters that didn't shoot C&B revolvers, using guns from the black powder era.  The '97 is not from the black powder era.  It and the model 94 or '95 are from a more modern period.

 

If you want to run your '97 or '87 the way it was intended, shoot Wild Bunch.   I don't particularly like the '97... but I won't abuse it by shooting BP thru 'em.  But I do love shooting one stoked up at the loading table.

 

As an aside... do you really want to eliminate 44 years of tradition?

Edited March 19 by Griff

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

MY main match sg has been an 87 which I use for frontiersman and also FCD when I decide to shoot that. By 97 has NEVER had any bp run through it. SAdly my favorite was my hammered dbl but it has basically ended up being a safe queen due to the barrels separating.

 

 

Hochbauer

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Then you just eliminated all the shooters that shoot SXS in the same category. Loading 4 in a 87/97 would be a definite time advantage.

 I did quit a bit of testing between stoking my 87 with 4 vs loading 2. No comparison, loading 2 at a time was much faster. 
 

 As for stoking a 97 vs single loading via the ejection port, I have no data one way or the other. 

[July Smith]

31 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 I did quit a bit of testing between stoking my 87 with 4 vs loading 2. No comparison, loading 2 at a time was much faster. 

No doubt, stoking the gun on the clock has got to be the slowest method when we are talking about raw time.  However on stages that allow for the shotgun to be "staged anywhere safely" I have found I can load two shells in the tube and then as I am getting to the shotgun stage drop one on the carrier and start the 4th shell into the chamber, then just blaze away.  I'm not fast but that method is faster for me and a lot of fun.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I use a double when shooting fcd or frontiersman, loved my hammered ttn but my thumb got busted up about 7 years ago so I've been using my stoger my Cimarron sxs, I tried a 87 for a while but my loading technique left a lot to be desired, did great using dummy rounds in the living room but when the beep hit it was a comedy of errors. Save my 97 for backing up my model 12 for wild bunch.

Rafe

Edited March 21 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[Sedalia Dave]

25 minutes ago, July Smith said:

No doubt, stoking the gun on the clock has got to be the slowest method when we are talking about raw time.  However on stages that allow for the shotgun to be "staged anywhere safely" I have found I can load two shells in the tube and then as I am getting to the shotgun stage drop one on the carrier and start the 4th shell into the chamber, then just blaze away.  I'm not fast but that method is faster for me and a lot of fun.

 I’ve never seen a stage that allowed anyone to start with shells already loaded in the magazine. 

[July Smith]

4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 I’ve never seen a stage that allowed anyone to start with shells already loaded in the magazine. 

No no on the clock, after the beep.  Gun still starts empty, pick up 87 and on my brisk walk to the shotgun stage I load two in the tube, arrive at the shotgun stage, one shell on the carrier, one shell starting in the chamber and I am ready to engage four targets.

Edited March 19 by July Smith

[Yul Lose]

30 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 I’ve never seen a stage that allowed anyone to start with shells already loaded in the magazine. 

Gun Runner Pete MD at Imperial Valley Rangers used to let us stoke our 97 shotguns at the loading table. 4 in the magazine none in the chambers, it was a lot of fun. I’ve been allowed to stoke 4 in the magazine after the beep at some locals out here. If you ever get to watch Callahan run a 1897 he loads one in the magazine and one on the carrier after the beep and is blinding fast and might even beat most SxS shooters.

[La Sombra]

So since I hijacked this thread with my 97 comment, background.

I was shooting a 97 at a local match in FC, got called on shooting the 97, consulted (insert angelic sounds here) The Shooters Handbook (more angelic sounds here). We found out that pump shotguns like the 97 are not allowed in any FC category. Since it was a local match and having already shot two stages, should have received a MDQ. They found me a SxS and allowed to finish the match. So I went to the higher authority(insert angelic sounds) @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L. I was told two things, (paraphrasing here) 1) you’re an idiot and should have really read the rules and 2) Not changing it since the 97 is not of the period. 
So went back to my 87 since I hate my SxS.

To quote Paul Harvey, now you know the rest of the story.

 

La Sombra

[Burn Through]

well ike you sound like someone just walked over your grave ???? I sure hope we are not cross ???? But please tell me how this is a advantage ?? I was hoping to start shooting more of this black powder category ... I would look forward to all that have been shooting F C  for a bit to chime in ?? 

[Dapper Dave]

This germane since I am trying to build a black powder battery...and the shotgun I will be using is my old poly stocked Stoeger coach gun...but I HAD considered others. Now I will definitely stick with the SXS.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

49 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

 I was hoping to start shooting more of this black powder category ... I would look forward to all that have been shooting F C  for a bit to chime in ?? 

If you want to shoot any particular category you need to use the firearms, ammo and other gear that is allowed within those categories per the rules.  These are listed for all the categories, so aquire the required items to shoot in any category you want to shoot.  Trying to change the rules for any category to fit what you already own or want to shoot instead of what is called for seems not the right way to expand your shooting experience within CAS. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

BT, a Stoeger SxS is suitable for FC.  With careful shopping you should be able to buy one for less than $300.  I bought one new for ~$250 last year.  I mark all my black powder shells, so I never fire them in one of my '97s.  This prevents a time-consuming cleaning.

[Dapper Dave]

Oh yeah...

 

Love using those MagTech full length brass shells. That's what got me into loading for shotgun - no press needed.

[Burn Through]

ok so can anyone tell me why the 97 is not a legal fc shotgun ?   I hear tell the first few some was built with a Damascus barrel???? 

[Griff]

I don't believe any 1897s were produced with damascus bbls.  Fluid steel barrels were already well established as a better choice in shotgun barrels by 1897.

  

The year the category was introduced, SHB, 1989, pg 8:

Quote

SHOTGUNS:
Any side by side shotgun, typical of the era, without automatic ejectors, with or without external hammers. Any lever action shotgun. Any pump shotgun with an exposed hammer (i.e. Winchester Model 97 or Marlin Model 16 except the military configuration of such guns).
7 No larger bore than 10 gauge and no smaller than 20 gauge. All shotguns must have a barrel length over 18". Number 4 lead shot or smaller must be used in all events. Magnum loads are not allowed. Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two rounds at a time in the main matches. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.
NOTE: Frontier Blackpowder category shooters must use a side by side in their main matches, but may use any of the above shotguns in team and side matches.

The name changed in 1997 to Frontier Cartridge (Blackpowder). with nearly identical rules,  SHB, 1997:

Quote

FRONTIER CARTRIDGE (BLACK

POWDER)

 Percussion or cartridge, single action revolvers of original manufacture prior to 1896 or reproductions thereof

 Must be .36 caliber or larger.

Adjustable sights are not allowed.

 Frontier Cartridge competitors must use a side by side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages.

 Blackpowder must be used in all loads (rifle, pistol, and shotgun).

 The Ruger Old Army percussion revolver with traditional, non‑adjustable sights is permitted in the Frontier Cartridge category. The same gun in the model having adjustable rear sights must compete in the Modem category.

 The reason?  I believe that Tex, SASS #4, was the only one of the Wild Bunch that'd ever shot BP (winning FC in 1990 & 1992), and the Wild Bunch made the rules.  Sure, with input from several shooters, including myself... the Wild Bunch pretty much all shot 1897s, so if anyone was inclined to include the '97 as legal for any category, it'd be them.   The first time I shot EOT was 1986, and I've misplaced my Shooter's Handbook from that match.  But, don't recall any changes to the 1987 first official SASS SHB.

 

My 2003 Handbook is also MIA, the when Classic Cowboy was established the requirement was for a side-by-side or lever action shotgun.  But, as my 2005 Handbook shows, it's legal in B-Western.  I believe that reflects the prevailing idea that the 1897 is not a cowboy era (pre-automobile), shotgun.

Edited March 21 by Griff

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

21 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

BT, a Stoeger SxS is suitable for FC.  With careful shopping you should be able to buy one for less than $300.  I bought one new for ~$250 last year.  I mark all my black powder shells, so I never fire them in one of my '97s.  This prevents a time-consuming cleaning.

Burn Through and his brother have SKB's, '87s Chiappa and Chinese, and shoot exclusively BP.

[Burn Through]

thank you to all that responded , seems I can shoot a boogie 73, and jimmy Ruger and a sxs single trigger internal hammered tricked by persimmon dan ,,,, But not a trombone style shotgun .I wasnt asking to bring a semi auto into the mix.... I'm headed to the range today to burn up bout a third of a pound of black and all that really matters is if I can beat my brother by a couple seconds and make him buy taco bell ... Have a great day to all

[July Smith]

Burn Through is correct about some early 97s being produced with damascus barrels, I have seen at least two examples on Gunbroker and I have even seen an early Winchester advertisement that listed damascus as an option for their 97s.  According to some sources commercial shotgun ammo was available with black powder up until the 1930s.  I have no doubt that back in the day some 97s were shot with black powder.  

 

SASS is a variant of three gun that has an old west flair.  Some of the rules seem to be written to preserve modern peoples perception of what a frontier cowboy was, and not necessarily what was truly historically accurate.  IMHO not allowing a 97 in any FC categories is an example of one of these rules.   

Edited March 23 by July Smith

[Blackwater 53393]

In the words of a good friend and well known Frontiersman from the recent past, “LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!”

 

The logic behind the exclusion of pump shotguns and fixed sight pistols is that they were what was available before the 1880’s, (and perhaps a little earlier) and the pump shotguns were not around back then.

 

Just like not allowing hammerless doubles and pump shotguns in Clasic Cowboy or 1866 or 1873 rifles in B Western, these rules were set by those who helped create the categories!

Enough cowboys got together and worked and campaigned to expand Frontier Cartridge to include the separate Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter as a separate recognized category! Took us several years, a lot of, ( I hate to use this word) politicking, shooting the category as a demonstration category at major events, and getting enough shooters to participate to show that it was a viable addition!

 

I, personally, gave up shooting the Frontiersman category for more than two years at major events to help promote the establishment of FCGF because several of my cowboy friends wanted it so badly!

 

I love my ‘97s! I shoot them as often as not and I shoot brass shells loaded with Black Powder in them sometimes too! I shot the 1893 Winchester pump shotguns and the Marlin 1898 shotguns and their derivatives until they were arbitrarily banned!  Those designs were developed and produced in the time when Black Powder was prevalent and the ‘93 was removed from production when smokeless powder shells became the norm.

 

SO! I offer this as my perspective on this subject and I repeat again what my buddy, NOZ, always says, “LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!!!”

[Lucky R. K.]

18 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

SO! I offer this as my perspective on this subject and I repeat again what my buddy, NOZ, always says, “LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!!!”

Noz was right. I once asked him why Frontiersman was shot one handed. He lit into me like a drill seargent cleaning out a new recuit. I wasn't suggesting changing it, I just wondered why it was that way.

Lucky 😁

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Noz was right. I once asked him why Frontiersman was shot one handed. He lit into me like a drill seargent cleaning out a new recuit. I wasn't suggesting changing it, I just wondered why it was that way.

Lucky 😁

Simply put... Tex wanted it that way.  A - he enjoyed shooting duelist.  B - he knew he could beat me, I'm a terrible duelist.  That's my story & I'm stickin' to it!😄