Gunfighter question

[Make do]

I like to watch other gunfighters on YouTube to pick up tips. The video I was watching was from EOT this year at about 6:20 and 7:38 were two gunfighters were competing. For the life of me I could not hear but six rounds fired. How do they determine if the gunfighter is running afoul of the rule of two at the same time, do they look at the timer and see if it caught it as two separate shots?

https://youtu.be/HFzWDVTUW0g

 

[Jackalope]

Direct quote from PWB, SASS Wire 9-8-2020

"Electronic timers are not used to determine whether a violation has occurred or not. 

If the T/O and/or spotters cannot audibly distinguish two separate discharges from the revolvers, the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" applies.

The Timer Operator has final say on the call."

 

Regards,

Jackalope

[Sedalia Dave]

Just like timers, video recorders especially cell phones use sound compression to attenuate loud sounds like gunfire. The consequences of this is that sometimes it doesn’t pick up every sound. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Recorded video/audio or photographic data will never be allowed to be presented as evidence in either regard.

SHB p.25 - ASSESSING PENALTIES AND PROTESTS

[Equanimous Phil]

 

18 hours ago, Jackalope said:

[...] If the T/O and/or spotters cannot audibly distinguish two separate discharges from the revolvers, the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "shooting out of category" applies.

The Timer Operator has final say on the call."

"Distinguish two separate discharges" means that you can tell which revolver was shot first. I guess some TOs will argue that it doesn't matter which bullet hit first when you can double tap a target and that they heard that it was two shots and not just one because of the different sound, but that's not what the rule is asking for... 

I highly doubt that the TO in the linked video could distinguish all shots, especially with the second shooter at around 7:38 (just my impression)

[mean gun mark]

its very subjective. I shoot gunfighter and double cock so yes it is easy to double discharge,   While video and audio is not to be used for official calls , it can be very revealing. From the video you had posted, the first one it appears that her first two pairs doubled and the second it appears that the first 3 pairs were double discharged.   If you are going to double cock it takes practice not to double discharge and even then sometimes it still slips out.  should a penalty have been called in these two examples? I cant say as I wasnt there when it happened.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

4 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

"Distinguish two separate discharges" means that you can tell which revolver was shot first. I guess some TOs will argue that it doesn't matter which bullet hit first when you can double tap a target and that they heard that it was two shots and not just one because of the different sound, but that's not what the rule is asking for... 

I highly doubt that the TO in the linked video could distinguish all shots, especially with the second shooter at around 7:38 (just my impression)

 

Please clarify.   Are you saying that the spotters are suppose to look at the pistols and the targets to determine hits/misses

and that the pistols are suppose to have a certain firing order?

 

..........Widder

 

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

o Gunfighter style competitors must shoot FIVE rounds with each hand – regardless of how they are drawn from leather.

o The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other)

o When a stage calls for 10 revolver rounds in a single sequence or the use of only one revolver for the stage, the Gunfighter may draw both revolvers and engage the targets. The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario.

o A Gunfighter may utilize any sequence that is available for use by any other shooting category.

o Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style.

o Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.

 

Shooters Handbook, P7

 

I can't be leave I needed to copy this from the SHB.  As a double cocker, I don't need anyone checking which gun was fired first, just which target was hit in what order.

 

Chancy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks for post, Chancy.   Indeed, I know the rules but I was hoping Phil could explain his comment about

".....you can tell which revolver was fired first".

 

..........Widder

 

[Black Angus McPherson]

This is why I won't spot for some gunfighters.  At a big match a number of years ago there was a fast gunfighter and I don't recall a single stage where I could have identified 10 distinct shots.  There were several where I only heard five and I'd have sworn he only fired 5 shots.

 

A while back, here on the Wire, in a similar discussion it was opined by a couple pards that "It is impossible to fire two guns simultaneously" therefore no one should be found to be afoul of the rule.  OK.  I'll just say some of y'all are way too fast for me.  It's impressive, but I can't spot for it.

 

Angus

[Texas Jack Black]

 Here we go again. Time to brew another pot of Coffee🙃

[Bingo Montana]

I wasn't a spotter at EOT, so I can't comment on scoring in the video linked.  I do have some experience as a spotter, TO, and Gunfighter and I can say the rule for gunfighters in the SHB page 7 "Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring." is an interesting one.  

 

In the attached video I shot the sequence by double cocking and firing both pistols as close to the same time as I humanly could on purpose just to make the video for educational purposes as the sequence was ripe for doing so.  The stage instructions were: "With pistols starting on P2, alternate single taps between P2 and P1 and P3 going in either direction first (e.g. 2,1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1)."  So, did I shoot P2 or P1 first on that first shot?  Very difficult to tell!  The gunfighter behind the pistols couldn't tell, the TO and the spotters just scored it as "no misses", I called myself for a P under the rule quoted above.  But then again, I wasn't spotting and some people would say benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.  It certainly was possible the targets are hit in the correct order, but in my opinion not shooting the pistols one at a time makes it difficult to score correctly and warrants a P.  Again, I took advantage of being a gunfighter and this particular sequence to make a video for future educational purposes and not to facilitate scoring.  

 

If the video can be used as an example of the rule, please use it freely, or let me know and I will edit it with a description, then post it to my YouTube channel so it can be easily linked for future use.

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

3 hours ago, Bingo Montana said:

I called myself for a P under the rule quoted above.  But then again, I wasn't spotting and some people would say benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

TO has the FINAL say on giving, or not giving, a 'P'........ not the spotters.  They can only relate to the TO as to what they saw.

 

By the way, good job on the video and your efforts to show what a double discharge looks like.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

[Equanimous Phil]

21 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Please clarify.   Are you saying that the spotters are suppose to look at the pistols and the targets to determine hits/misses

and that the pistols are suppose to have a certain firing order?

 

20 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Indeed, I know the rules but I was hoping Phil could explain his comment about

".....you can tell which revolver was fired first".

 

Per SHB "revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time", and btw. this sentence indicates that it is possible to shoot both guns at the same time. So, two rounds are either shot simultaneously or sequentially, and in the latter case, the TO - who is supposed to watch the shooters and their guns and would assign the penalty for this violation - must be able to tell which revolver was fired first. Of course, it doesn't matter which one was first as there is no certain firing order, but one of them has to be distinguishable first.

 

I didn't write this rule, but that's how I read it. And imho, either a rule is enforceable or it has to be changed or dropped. It is not very satisfying when some shooters try to comply with the rule and therefore intentionally slow a bit down while others just pull both triggers and say "it's impossbile to shoot two guns exact simultaneously".

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I gotcha.  Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

[Texas Jack Black]

13 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

 

Per SHB "revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time", and btw. this sentence indicates that it is possible to shoot both guns at the same time. So, two rounds are either shot simultaneously or sequentially, and in the latter case, the TO - who is supposed to watch the shooters and their guns and would assign the penalty for this violation - must be able to tell which revolver was fired first. Of course, it doesn't matter which one was first as there is no certain firing order, but one of them has to be distinguishable first.

 

I didn't write this rule, but that's how I read it. And imho, either a rule is enforceable or it has to be changed or dropped. It is not very satisfying when some shooters try to comply with the rule and therefore intentionally slow a bit down while others just pull both triggers and say "it's impossbile to shoot two guns exact simultaneously".

 So you can cock them both at the same time but must be shot one at a time. Now I ask to what end does cocking them both at the same time do other than cause a potential P trap.

[Equanimous Phil]

 

27 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So you can cock them both at the same time but must be shot one at a time. Now I ask to what end does cocking them both at the same time do other than cause a potential P trap.

1. Not  everything that can cause a P is a potential P trap. A P trap is a unique tricky situation you encounter at a specific match. Before you shoot gunfighter you should do ...
2. ... a thing called practicing: double-cock, bang, bang - double-cock, bang, bang - double-cock, bang, bang - ... *  (the same thing all day long)
3. Cocking at the same time isn't of any concern, so you can do as you like. But shooting at the same time is a matter of scoring and can also be a safety issue (the TO hearing a squib load, for example). 

 

* of course, one can also go with alternate cocking

Edited March 10 by Equanimous Phil
alternate cocking

[Texas Jack Black]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

1. Not  everything that can cause a P is a potential P trap. A P trap is a unique tricky situation you encounter at a specific match. Before you shoot gunfighter you should do ...
2. ... a thing called practicing: double-cock, bang, bang - double-cock, bang, bang - double-cock, bang, bang - ... *  (the same thing all day long)
3. Cocking at the same time isn't of any concern, so you can do as you like. But shooting at the same time is a matter of scoring and can also be a safety issue (the TO hearing a squib load, for example). 

 

* of course, one can also go with alternate cocking

 I ask again to what end?

[Ciderbarrel]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Now I ask to what end does cocking them both at the same time do other than cause a potential P trap.

Shoot faster.

Cock-bang, cock-bang... is slower. You especially see this in shooters who do the "point and shoot" method where they pull their arm back to cock, push forward to shoot.

 

The fast gunfighter I see shoot, especially here in the Carolinas like Scarlett, Slippery Stew, Palmetto Traveler, double cock.

[Diamond Jake]

48 minutes ago, Ciderbarrel said:

.. the "point and shoot" method where they pull their arm back to cock, push forward to shoot...

 

This always seemed to me to break the rule about not having one gun behind the other.  I'm not a Gunfighter, due to an exceptionally weak left thumb, but that rule seemed to be very subjective to me, based on never seeing it called.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

This always seemed to me to break the rule about not having one gun behind the other.  I'm not a Gunfighter, due to an exceptionally weak left thumb, but that rule seemed to be very subjective to me, based on never seeing it called.

The rule exists to keep a gunfighter from shooting themselves by getting a cocked firearm behind their other hand.

 

A violation of this rule occurs when 

one gun is DIRECTLY behind the other.

As viewed from BEHIND the shooter 

 

It is not a violation to have one gun behind the other as viewed from BESIDE the shooter.

 

The best analogy for this is a multi lane highway.

 

Lane A ---------------

Lane B ---------------

 

Two cars are occupying Lane B - when viewed from behind; one is directly behind the other; this relative positioning has potential for a crash.

This would be a violation of the Gunfighter rule.

 

Lane A -----------

Lane B ---------}-}

 

Place the cars in the same positions - just now one is in Lane A and the other Lane B.

When viewed from the SIDE; one is behind the other. 

 

But they are not in each others path - and pose no danger to the other.

 

Lane A --------}

Lane B ----------}

 

This is not a violation of the Gunfighter rule.

 

And that was 130 pounds ago - so slightly larger than today.

Edited March 10 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

6 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

So you can cock them both at the same time but must be shot one at a time. Now I ask to what end does cocking them both at the same time do other than cause a potential P trap.

I have a mental handicap when trying to shoot by single cocking (cocking one pistol as you are firing the other.)  I either have to go very slow or screw it up.  By double cocking, I am doing one activity at a time (cock both -- fire -fire ---- cock both-- fire -fire ---- cock both-- fire -fire ---- cock both-- fire -fire ---- cock both-- fire -fire).  Another advantage is not having to worry about changing leads.  You have two pistols ready to fire.  Just shoot the pistol closest to the next target.

 

The single biggest disadvantage to double cocking is split pistols.  You shoot 4 shots, then decide to shoot one more WITHOUT cocking the second pistol.  Shoot a long gun.  Back to shooting pistols.  Which one has 2 rounds left and which one has 3????  I can't do it.  Fortunately, gunfighters can also shoot double duelists.

 

Chancy

[Null N. Void]

Spotters should watch the targets, not the revolvers.   I double cock.  My thumbs won't coordinate alternate shots.   I generally swap leads so I don't cross pistols.   I make sure there is a gap between the shots.   The timer should hear the gap and the spotters should see the targets hit in the correct sequence.

[Diamond Jake]

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

...A violation of this rule occurs when one gun is DIRECTLY behind the other.

As viewed from BEHIND the shooter ...

 

 

 

Thanks Creeker...this helps a lot.  I was mentally picturing it as if a view from the top.

 

I've seen a few gunfighters pull the guns significantly farther back and lower, so that a slight tilt of the wrist for the "back" gun could result in sweeping the forward hand or arm.  In your video your muzzles always stayed ahead of the other hand, even when viewed from the side or from the top.

 

OK, back to the regularly-scheduled discussion of when to cock the hammers.

[El Chapo]

9 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So you can cock them both at the same time but must be shot one at a time. Now I ask to what end does cocking them both at the same time do other than cause a potential P trap.

 

I have never done it any other way.  They certainly can be shot close together. Also sometimes I'll do a lead change mid sequence when I have to shoot two different targets. Usually I do left right but sometimes it makes sense to shoot right left depending on what I'm aiming at.

 

Thought for those of you rule guys out there: if I'm shooting two rounds at the same target, is there any penalty for pulling both triggers at the same time? Obviously there is no need to space them out to facilitate scoring there. I don't do it but now I'm wondering what the answer would be. 

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

El Chapo,

 

If the TO cannot hear two separate shots, no. You have to keep in mind that the TO has to be able to hear ten separate shots for your revolver string. I have only had to call this on one occasion. It was during the side match day, and he wanted to see if I would indeed make the call.

Edited March 10 by Tracker Jack Daniels,58780

[Montague Kid]

Just to stir the pot , what other category mandates not shooting as quickly as possible?

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

10 hours ago, Ciderbarrel said:

Shoot faster.

Cock-bang, cock-bang... is slower. You especially see this in shooters who do the "point and shoot" method where they pull their arm back to cock, push forward to shoot.

 

The fast gunfighter I see shoot, especially here in the Carolinas like Scarlett, Slippery Stew, Palmetto Traveler, double cock.

The fastest Gunfighters I know do not double cock, Missouri Lefty, Cumberland Kid, Mountaineer Mac....

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER said:

The fastest Gunfighters I know do not double cock, Missouri Lefty, Cumberland Kid, Mountaineer Mac....

That's because simultaneous actions are faster than non simultaneous.

 

If one hand is cocking WHILE the other hand is firing - then the other hand is cocking as the first hand is firing - there is no "wasted" time in the chain.

 

Dual cocking requires the gunfighters second hand to hang there doing nothing with a cocked pistol while the first hand fires - then requires the first hand to hang there with a fired, hammer down, pistol waiting for the second hand to fire.

 

There are certainly some fast proponents of double cocking - but if all things were equal (which they never are) the alternating gunfighter will be faster.

Edited March 11 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[mean gun mark]

14 hours ago, Montague Kid said:

Just to stir the pot , what other category mandates not shooting as quickly as possible?

there are really fast shooters who shooting two handed can go fast enough to not hear distinct individual shots, however the rule being discussed is applied to gunfighter style only.

[El Chapo]

15 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

El Chapo,

 

If the TO cannot hear two separate shots, no. You have to keep in mind that the TO has to be able to hear ten separate shots for your revolver string. I have only had to call this on one occasion. It was during the side match day, and he wanted to see if I would indeed make the call.

 

I'm really not sure what you're saying.  The TO is not a spotter, so I'm really not sure what rule you think would support the TO counting shots.  The spotters have to see 10 splashes in the correct order, so there's a rule requiring them not to be shot at the same time so as for them to do that, but if two bullets land on the same target at virtually the same time, it doesn't matter which one was first.

[Lucky R. K.]

A good TO will always count shots. He is not spotting but keeping up with the round count. That how he knows the guns are empty.

Lucky 😁

[Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968]

42 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

 

I'm really not sure what you're saying.  The TO is not a spotter, so I'm really not sure what rule you think would support the TO counting shots.  The spotters have to see 10 splashes in the correct order, so there's a rule requiring them not to be shot at the same time so as for them to do that, but if two bullets land on the same target at virtually the same time, it doesn't matter which one was first.

Counting Shots Fired is one of the TO responsibilities / practices.

 

Don't have a copy of the RO Class materials but below is information from the R-O-B-S materials.

 

UNIT 7: Timer Operator – Practices
The TO operates the timer… and so much more!
- The TO should be aware of the skill level of the competitors. Be attentive to new
shooters, helping and coaching them through the course of fire, as needed. Always be
ready to control the newer shooter.
- The TO also gives seasoned shooters a little more room since they tend to move fast.
Don’t let them run over you because you’re crowding them.
- While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or
location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A
shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty.
- The TO watches the shooter – and the shooters guns- for unsafe acts, correct target
engagement, and stage procedures.
- The TO should count shots fired, if possible.
- The TO should stay within arm’s reach of the shooter at all times through the course
of fire.

Page 22  - Range Operations Base Safety Course

 

Counting shots and the condition of the pistols (cocked/de-cocked) becomes more involved with a gunfighter.  Especially if the is a split pistol situation.

 

As a Timer Operator you have an abundant amount of responsibilities / roles to fulfill.

 

In a 10 stage match a timer operator will "shoot" 60-65 stages depending on how many competitors they are timing.

 

Huge responsibility and a large impact their match.

 

My intent was not to hijack this gunfighter thread.  

 

Vic

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

1 hour ago, El Chapo said:

 

I'm really not sure what you're saying.  The TO is not a spotter, so I'm really not sure what rule you think would support the TO counting shots.  The spotters have to see 10 splashes in the correct order, so there's a rule requiring them not to be shot at the same time so as for them to do that, but if two bullets land on the same target at virtually the same time, it doesn't matter which one was first.

Takke an RO course!!  Read the Handbook. One of the duties of the TO is to count shots!! The TO must be able to distinguish 10 revolver shots to determine if the progressive penalty for shooting out of category needs to be applied!

[El Chapo]

27 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 said:

Takke an RO course!!  Read the Handbook. One of the duties of the TO is to count shots!! The TO must be able to distinguish 10 revolver shots to determine if the progressive penalty for shooting out of category needs to be applied!

 

I don't see how taking the RO course is going to change what the rules say.  What "out of category" error is there for gunfighter?  We're allowed to have two loaded guns in our hands.  What could we do that would result in us shooting out of category?  If I had an adjustable sight revolver in my hand, counting shots isn't going to change that.  If I were to shoot traditional, clearly counting shots isn't going to change that and I'm not sure how I'd do that with a revolver in the other hand.  What other rule supports a penalty for shooting out of category that depends on shot count?  The rule says that shots have to be spaced to "facilitate scoring."  If the scoring issue is moot, what else is there?

 

 

41 minutes ago, Lucky R. K. said:

A good TO will always count shots. He is not spotting but keeping up with the round count. That how he knows the guns are empty.

Lucky 😁

 

Is verifying guns are empty necessary to "facilitate scoring" if the spotters have seen 10 splashes on the targets?

Edited March 11 by El Chapo