44 Russian in a 44/40

[Red Rider Rudy]

Has anyone done this?

[Texas Red]

Yes.....2 rounds.....

Edited March 8 by Texas Red

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Two completely different cartridges.  Look at the difference in case head diameters.  There are some that say they do it but SASS rules prevent me from saying how I feel about the IQ level of those people.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

I shoot .44 Russian in my .44 Special revolvers. My 1873 rifle is .44-40. Supposedly a good pairing of calibers and guns for APP BP sub. I am so (almost) ready to start reloading.

 

Have not heard of running .44 Russian in any .44-40 gun so will follow along.

[Leroy Luck]

I’ve known guys that do it. Somewhat frequently. I’ve thought about doing it (experimenting) once I acquire a 44-40 rifle. 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

No it's not even close to the right size cartridge. 

 

I load 44R 44S  44M and 44-40  

You will just damage the brass .

You won't hurt the gun itself .

Rooster 

[Slow Poke]

I do it all the time. 

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

I gotta ask……why?

[El Sobrante Kid]

31 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

I gotta ask……why?

 

Well..... goshdarnit, if'n it a wasn't sposed to be shot in dere, then whie do it fit in dere?  Small Print: Yes, I have several 44-40s. No, I would personally never consider doing this as being a good idea.

 

[Slow Poke]

1 hour ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

I gotta ask……why?

I do it because the Russian case is considerably smaller and I get a better burn with the cowboy loads I shoot. It is also extremely handy with black powder,  smaller case=smaller powder charge. 

Thats why I use them.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

I know that you can shoot 44 Russian in a 45 Colt Winchester 94!

 

My wife was taking a CAS class while i was working on the range. She brought these deformed cases over to me and asked what was wrong with the rifle. She had opened a box of 44 Russians instead of the 45 Colt!

[Lead Monger]

I’ve been shooting the 44 Smith & Wesson Russian in my 44 Special and 44 Magnum revolvers for years. Even rebarreled a Uberti 1866 to 44 special so I can run Russian cartridges in it. Works great because the cases have the same dimensions except for length.

The 44 WCF is a bottleneck case and has nothing in common with the S&W cases.

if I saw Russian cases being loaded into a 44WCF firearm I would not run the timer for that person.

Edited March 9 by Lead Monger

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I load 44 Russian for my handguns very nice to shoot with smokeless. Yesterday I tried out some rounds with APP lots of smoke. That said my main match rifle is 44wcf. In the odd chance that I might jack out a round the 44 Russian can easily be loaded from the top so I keep one round in my belt.

 

Hochbauer

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Just because it won't harm the rifle ,dont mean it should be done.

Or even allowed in the game .

Its NOT even close in being the correct ammunition for the gun .

I could see someone getting a match DQ for doing such a thing.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

54 minutes ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

Just because it won't harm the rifle ,dont mean it should be done.

Or even allowed in the game .

Its NOT even close in being the correct ammunition for the gun .

I could see someone getting a match DQ for doing such a thing.

Please quote the rule including page number in SHB for your proposed match DQ.

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

2 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Please quote the rule including page number in SHB for your proposed match DQ.

I agree, back when the 92 JW Commemorative came out I got it and was going to get a .44 mag replacement barrel for it to shoot .44 special and a well known cowboy gunsmith in West Palm Beach named Nelson asked me why I would replace the barrel when he could ream it to fit .44 special cartridges instead?  And since it is the same steel that is used for the .44 mag rifle barrel there would be no issue. I have used it in many a shoot back then at my club and no one mentioned including Nelson that it was against any rules. 
So please Rooster let me know the rule(s) that prohibit it?  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

BIG PLUS ONE for Pettifogger absolutely.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

FYI you cannot ream a LARGE hole to fit a smaller hole.  The .44-40 case head is .469.  Modern .44 russian, Special and Magnum are .457.  That is twelve thousands SMALLER.  Light .44 Russian cowboy loads are one thing.  Firing a full power .44 Mag in a "reamed" .44-40 chamber is not something anyone should do.  I would not trust any gunsmith that says you can ream a .44-40 barrel to fit .44 Magnum.

Edited March 8 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

You did not read my post correctly!  I never said I was firing .44 mag cartridges in the rifle, I fired cowboy .44 special in the rifle!  I did mention it was the same barrel steel Miroku makes the .44 mag barrels they put on the Winchester 92’s. So Larsen NO ONE SAID I COULD SHOOT .44 MAGNUM CARTRIDGES OUT OF A REAMED .44-40 BARREL!!  THE GUNSMITH SAID I COULD SHOOT .44 SPECIAL OUT OF IT!!  SO PLEASE DONT RE-WRITE MY POST OR CAST ASPERSIONS AGAINST THE GUNSMITH I MENTIONED!  

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

By they way I do have a Browning 92 & a Winchester 92 both in .44 mag that I also shoot .44 special in. So I obviously know the difference between those cartridges and .44-40 which I shoot in my 1860 Henry, 1866 and 1873 Winchesters also made by Miroku. 

[Griff]

Why is it that good sense is so uncommon?  Living proof that my assertion that the definition of "common sense" is presently "Sheer Supidity!"  Look at Pettifogger's post.. look at the dimensions.  The web of the 44R is wholly unsupported in the chamber of the 44WCF,  There's nothing to support the bullet from entering the rifling remotely in-line with the bore axis.  A loss of accuracy is not the only probability.  

 

NF... I have to wonder just how bulged are the case webs on your 44Spl after firing in a 4WCF chamber?  At least your 44Spl neck is beyond the shoulder of the 44WCF.  Must wreck havoc with your brass.  Are able to use that 44Spl brass in a 44Spl chamber after using it in your 44WCF?  Is it only reamed to take the 44Spl, or did your gunsmith really ream it to accept a 44Mag length case?  

 

Have you somehow marked your firearms as unsafe with anything other than X psi loads?  What about future caretakers of said guns?  How is your estate (heirs) protected from future unsuspecting users?  

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

Why is it that good sense is so uncommon?  Living proof that my assertion that the definition of "common sense" is presently "Sheer Supidity!"  Look at Pettifogger's post.. look at the dimensions.  The web of the 44R is wholly unsupported in the chamber of the 44WCF,  There's nothing to support the bullet from entering the rifling remotely in-line with the bore axis.  A loss of accuracy is not the only probability.  

 

NF... I have to wonder just how bulged are the case webs on your 44Spl after firing in a 4WCF chamber?  At least your 44Spl neck is beyond the shoulder of the 44WCF.  Must wreck havoc with your brass.  Are able to use that 44Spl brass in a 44Spl chamber after using it in your 44WCF?  Is it only reamed to take the 44Spl, or did your gunsmith really ream it to accept a 44Mag length case?  

 

Have you somehow marked your firearms as unsafe with anything other than X psi loads?  What about future caretakers of said guns?  How is your estate (heirs) protected from future unsuspecting users?  

I do reload .44 spcl in a SDB, the length of the ream was the length of a .44 spcl cartridge, a .44-40 fired shell does expand but I don’t shoot .44-40’s in the rifle. The gun will go to my son with the rest of my collection and no there is no marking on the barrel to say it has been reamed. It will be treasured by him and his offspring and not sold to anyone else but if it were ever to be, it would be noted. Has the “collector’s” value been harmed, yes I am sure, but again I shoot it in .44 spcl so it is of little concern to me!  I have survived Stage 4 Metastatic colon cancer and as a week ago my fourth cardiac issue and have five stints. I tell you this so you will understand at 71 my longevity is in question and that I will continue to satisfy my desires when it comes to participating in life. Hence the question of RULES as I was not aware of any that would prevent me from shooting the rifle should I start be active again at a local club match. 
So again I ask is there a new rule that would prevent me from shooting the rifle at a SASS affiliated club match?  If not then I can choose to shoot it, if there is then I have other 92’s I can shoot then next time I participate. You will take note I didn’t say compete as I have never competed since I joined back in the early 2000’s. I enjoy walking healed and looking like John Wayne, and at one time the comrades that I shot with.   I appreciate your learned opinions however I don’t need to abide by them if I am not breaking rules. 

[Griff]

Thanks for your answer.  But, (probably mis- stated), my question was mainly,  was there a bulge in the 44Spl case web after firing in the 44WCF chamber? 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Looking at the specs for the cartridges, it LOOKS like the .44 Russian might fit in the space before the bottleneck of the .44-40.  I suppose if you load the .44 Special with the .428" bullets it might work, but...

It just seems like NOT a good idea on several levels.

Just because you CAN do something does not mean that you SHOULD.   Next thing you know, we'll have dinosaurs running amuck in our cities.  

 

[Red Rider Rudy]

Wow, sorry I ask about this. I just got a Henry in 44-40, couldn't find no ammo around here. I have 44 Russian and just wanted to test fire it.

[Griff]

18 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Wow, sorry I ask about this. I just got a Henry in 44-40, couldn't find no ammo around here. I have 44 Russian and just wanted to test fire it.

I think you have your answer.  Hopin' you can SSGS... (show some good sense).

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Thanks for your answer.  But, (probably mis- stated), my question was mainly,  was there a bulge in the 44Spl case web after firing in the 44WCF chamber? 

No there wasn’t, just the neck of the test fired  44-40, his shop was part of a range/gun store. 

[John Kloehr]

25 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Wow, sorry I ask about this. I just got a Henry in 44-40, couldn't find no ammo around here. I have 44 Russian and just wanted to test fire it.

I'm not sorry you asked, I learned from this thread. And looking at the other responses, I would not do it.

 

Assuming it fires safely with 44R... I am not yet qualified to say it can be fired safely but it certainly looks like it would chamber... It might not feed, which would may jamb up the gun. Chambering one at a time to fire it? Same assumption, gets around any issues levering it. But the case looks to me like it will bulge them compared to 44-40 dimensions.

 

Happy for you getting a new gun, 44-40 ammo has been hard to find, especially for cowboy loads. But it is out there. The cost and difficulty finding it are a primary driver of preparing to reload.

Edited March 8 by John Kloehr

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

38 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I'm not sorry you asked, I learned from this thread. And looking at the other responses, I would not do it.

 

Assuming it fires safely with 44R... I am not yet qualified to say it can be fired safely but it certainly looks like it would chamber... It might not feed, which would may jamb up the gun. Chambering one at a time to fire it? Same assumption, gets around any issues levering it. But the case looks to me like it will bulge them compared to 44-40 dimensions.

 

Happy for you getting a new gun, 44-40 ammo has been hard to find, especially for cowboy loads. But it is out there. The cost and difficulty finding it are a primary driver of preparing to reload.

 

1 hour ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Wow, sorry I ask about this. I just got a Henry in 44-40, couldn't find no ammo around here. I have 44 Russian and just wanted to test fire it.

Gunbroker has more than a few sources with 50 rnd boxes between $41 to $50 about a month ago, not inexpensive but a lot cheaper than when it was around $100 a box. Hope that helps. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Wow, sorry I ask about this. I just got a Henry in 44-40, couldn't find no ammo around here. I have 44 Russian and just wanted to test fire it.

Never apologize for asking a question that you do not know the answer too.   There is no such thing as a stupid question.  That may be a cliche, but it's the truth.  Yes, some questions will create a heated response, but it's worth asking; all knowledge is good.

This is not something that I had ever even considered as possible.   When I compared the specs for the cartridge cases and saw that the Russian very well might fit in the .44-40 chamber, I was surprised and intrigued.   Now, I have not compared pressure specs and other things, but given the very different design of the cartridges, it just seems like not a good thing to try.  Assuming the pressures are okay, maybe in an emergency situation, but I still think you'd have to custom load the Russians with .44-40 sized bullets.   Just seems like it's more trouble than it's worth.

And as far as asking goes, consider the following....

"I have a gun chambered for .357 Magnum.   Can I safely shoot .38 Long Colt in it?"   You will get many responses along the lines of how it is perfectly safe to do so, and perhaps the history of the cartridges.

Now on the other hand, if you ask, "I have a Colt 1894 chambered for .38 Long Colt, and I noticed that .357 Magnums fit in it.  Is it safe to shoot those in it?" you will get very loud and vocal answers about how this is good way to blow up your gun and potentially cause yourself great harm.   Some of the responses will try to be informative and explanatory, and some will be very judgmental.   But you know, I think it IS a question that should be asked from time to time, as there just might be people who simply don't know the answer.

 

And in a way, it's not an unreasonable question to ask.  There are many cartridges that can be fired in guns that are chambered for something else.

From smaller to larger, the following progressions are perfectly safe.  (But not the other way around.)

.22 Short ---  .22 Long --- .22 LR
.32 Short Colt --- .32 Long Colt
.32 S&W ---  .32 S&W Long  --- .32 H&R Magnum --- .327 Federal.

.38 S&W ---  .38-44 Target (Not the same as the 38-44 that was the forerunner to .357 Magnum)

.38 Short Colt --- .38 Long Colt --- .38 Special ---  (.38-44) ---  .357 Magnum --- .357 Maximum

.44 Russian  ---  .44 Special  ---  .44 Magnum
.45 S&W* ---  .45 Colt ---  .454 Casull  ---  460 S&W Magnum.   

*.45 S&W is not an exact match in that it is exactly same as a ,45 Colt made shorter.   But it will usually work.
 

Given these examples, it is perhaps logical to wonder if other cartridges can fit in other places.  Nothing wrong with asking with an eye to learning the answer.

I'll shoot with you any time.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

33 minutes ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

Gunbroker has more than a few sources with 50 rnd boxes between $41 to $50 about a month ago, not inexpensive but a lot cheaper than when it was around $100 a box. Hope that helps. 

+1.  As a practical matter if you are going to shoot CAS with the rifle you need to reload as shooting factory ammo is cost prohibitive for us peasants.

[John Kloehr]

31 minutes ago, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

Gunbroker has more than a few sources with 50 rnd boxes between $41 to $50 about a month ago, not inexpensive but a lot cheaper than when it was around $100 a box. Hope that helps. 

 

Appreciate it. I'm also dealing with having just got a Zastava M57. 7.62 X 25 Tokarev. Also about a buck a round for good stuff.

 

In the next few days, I will continue on my reloading project (got frozen out in the winter, now trying to get functional before the summer heat sets in...). I think I am all set to get going on cowboy ammo, now will need dies, powder, primers, cases, and bullets for 7.62 Tokerev.

[Griff]

24 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

.45 S&W* ---  .45 Colt ---  .454 Casull  ---  460 S&W Magnum.   

*.45 S&W is not an exact match in that it is exactly same as a ,45 Colt made shorter.   But it will usually work.

.45 S&W is just another name for the .45 Schofield, not the same as a .45 Colt.  The .45 Colt Government is the short version of the 45 Colt.  See this discussion:  "The .45 Short Colt", 4 pages of confusion, misinformation and finally some semblance of accuracy.  Sorta like, "which is it:  45 ACP or 45 Auto?"

[Red Rider Rudy]

Thanks all for answering my question. I had a friend find me a box of factory ammo. So i did get to shoot it today at our Wild Bunch match

 

Wow what a learning experience shooting a 1860 Henry for the first time.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

.45 S&W is just another name for the .45 Schofield, not the same as a .45 Colt.  The .45 Colt Government is the short version of the 45 Colt.  See this discussion:  "The .45 Short Colt", 4 pages of confusion, misinformation and finally some semblance of accuracy.  Sorta like, "which is it:  45 ACP or 45 Auto?"

 

I suppose I could have also included Cowboy .45 Special, which IS a .45 Colt cut back to .45 ACP length, so it'll work in all the longer ones.

Interestingly enough, the S&W/Schofield round WILL work is some repeating rifles.   Shot a clean match with it in my AWA Lightning, for example.