What is the call?

[Red River Rudy, SASS #8490 LIFE]

Shooter was present for reading of the stage then left to load, initial instructions were that the shotgun can be staged safely in any of the three windows of the stage.  The reader then corrected placement of the shotgun is in the second window and not anywhere else.   Shooter comes to the line and stages the shotgun in the first window as he/she did not hear that the correct placement is in the second window.  The shooter engages the 10 rifle targets, stages the rifle safely, picks up the shotgun and moves to the second window, shoots the two knockdowns and stages the shotgun safely and moved to finish the stage with the pistol.  The question here is should the TO have informed the shooter that his/her placement of the shotgun is wrong and informed the shooter of the correct placement?  The TO called a procedural.  This is at EOT where a procedural will cost a lot in placement.  There was a question by the shooter in that the TO should have told the shooter that the placement was wrong.  The TO said it is the shooters responsibility.  My observation was that this game is getting a little to serious.  I saw other irregularities in hits and misses that concerned me.  We have gotten where that damn buckle means so much.  This is supposed to be a fun game and my posse was to serious at first but loosened up quickly. The gang from Louisiana finally got people to start laughing a little.  We had a great posse and as I said after the last stage, I would hope to have the same posse again next year at EOT.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Whomever read the instructions "should," have read them correctly.

 

The TO "should" not have started the shooter in a faulted position.

 

But the shooter is ultimately responsible for their own actions - If I were the TO; I would assign the Procedural while recommending the shooter request a reshoot.

 

Or at minimum - a MD review of the stage to determine if any competitive advantage was earned by the shooters actions; hopefully resulting in a reshoot or no call.

 

And this game is serious - that's why it is so important that the person's running the stage and reading the stage provide accurate information and oversight to their posse.

Their error, lack of concentration can easily ruin a shooters entire match - the shooters deserve better.

[Eyesa Horg]

I feel the TO should have corrected the situation before the beep. Not wait til the end of the stage and give the shooter a P.  JMHO

[Flying W Ramrod]

The truth is, the shooter, and TO, could have corrected this on the clock.

After shooting the rifle, the shooter, could have, pick the shotgun up at Pos 1, take it to Pos 2, place it at Pos 2, hands off, pick it up and keep shooting.

However, this needs the TO to be aware enough to instruct the shooter, on the way to Pos 2, to do this, and the shooter to be able to follow instructions.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Not much of a TO! 

[John Kloehr]

It was a monthly shoot some time ago, and the instruction as best I recall was to take on either table (might have been one of three). Well, I chose a different table than every shooter before me.

 

Short take, several members of the posse questioned it and the TO reiterated shooter's choice for staging. My sense from the posse is that they were not trying to catch me, they were doing it to prevent a problem. So while I agree the TO should not have allowed starting in a faulted position, the Cowboy Way suggests the rest of the posse could have spoken up too.

 

Anyway, fully preventable problem as presented and if as presented, should have been a no call. Which may be why I am not qualified to be a TO, but am fully qualified to participate.

Edited Wednesday at 02:15 AM by John Kloehr

[wyliefoxEsquire]

This appears to be stage 4.

During the posse marshal walk through and at the safety meeting it was recommended that shooters READ along with the stage instructions.  

I agree with Creeker the shooter owns it!!

Yes , the TO "should" have corrected the issue.  (replace the TO).

This is a "P" the shooter did not follow instructions.

 

Shooters pay mucho to be here.  The PM and TO's carry a lot of responsibility, it is not fun nor easy for the PM and TO's.

When shooters own responsibility, the posse benefits for all.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:38 PM by wyliefoxEsquire

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Any match I shoot that has the stages printed I always read along as it is read. Sometimes there are changes given to the PMs at the walk through that must be given to the posse when it is read.

[Scarlett]

I see this happen a LOT at monthlies & up (not on my posse at EOT).  Too often, the shooter who is going to shoot first will “listen” and think the reading is over and will go load. When I’m Posse Marshal and reading stage - if there is a correction or if I miss something,  I’ll yell out about a correction! When I’m TO, I do my best to have the shooter start in the correct position, has SH shells, no cocked guns and staged correctly…and make sure targets are all reset, no one is down range, that there are three spotters who are paying attention, that the conversation about Ps or misses or drama is not within shooters hearing. No small tasks. 
 

I timed several shooters at EOT and was kind of surprised at how few folks (not just on my posse) were unwilling or uncomfortable to TO at the big match. Being responsible for a shooter getting a P or whatever is probably why. Shooters HAVE to pay attention. The stage instructions were stapled to EVERY stage loading table.  I feel TERRIBLE when I can’t “save” a shooter - but, REALLY bad if I miss something BEFORE the first round goes down range. 
 

Like @Creeker, SASS #43022 said, Shooter is ultimately responsible. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I have been honored to be a Posse Marshal at some major shoots.

 

My standard speech went something like this:

Not everyone came here with the expectation of winning their category. 

But everyone came here with the hope of doing their best.

And if the shooter is giving their best - then they deserve the best that we can give them.

The best spotting, best timing, best scorekeeping - they deserve the best atmosphere and encouragement. 

So in all your efforts for your fellow shooters - do your absolute best and in all tasks, expect the same from from others.

If, as a posse member, you feel your attention drifting or are unable to deliver your very best - hand off that responsibility to someone else.

 

This simple little speech reminds everyone of the gravity of their efforts and the need to do that little bit more.

 

"Carefully, clearly and completely" read the stage instructions.

Check your stage for safety and readiness, targets reset, brassed picked or cleared, attentive spotters in place before calling up your shooter.

Be observant of your shooter; their gait, steadiness and focus (I have put an arm around a shooter and suggested they refrain from shooting a stage right that moment -  put the guns back on the loading table - get some water and sit down for a bit - simply because they seemed unsteady, unfocused or just not ready), watch for proper gear, firearm staging and shotgun shells.

Show the shooter the timer, actually verify you're getting counts from all the spotters (and change them out if needed), make the score keepers look at the timer and repeat time and misses back to you, watch them write it down.

 

You will never completely eliminate errors, brain fade and attention drift - but by doing the above and fostering an expectation of effort; we can try to make sure that our potential impact on the shooters score is minimal.

Edited yesterday at 06:42 AM by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Scarlett]

@Creeker, SASS #43022  I’m gonna use this - I’ve said something similar - but your words are perfect!

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I can maybe understand that it's the shooters responsibility to understand the stage instructions when they come to the line at a state, regional, or national SASS sanctioned event. A monthly shoot is a little different. We have a lot of older folks who come because they like to shoot, and may not be as mentally sharp as when they were 30-40 years old. I TO a lot of monthly shoots. I make sure the firearms are staged where they are supposed to be, I'll say something if they pick a firearm up out of order when shooting the stage, and I always ask, before they say the line to start, does the shooter understand the stage? Then if a P is called there is no misunderstanding as you were asked if you understood the stage. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

20 minutes ago, High Spade Mikey Wilson said:

I always ask, before they say the line to start, does the shooter understand the stage?

This may work at a small monthly match but it would create a huge log jam at a big match. It’s been my experience that if you ask the shooter if they understand the stage, about half will tell you exactly how they are going to shoot the stage. 
 

Randy

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I TO a lot at all of our monthly matches and have TO'd at a couple of annual matches, both our club's and others.  At the monthly matches, I think everyone wants everyone else to have an enjoyable time at the range.  I ask each shooter (other than those for whom I already know the answer) "do you want me to say anything while you are shooting," right after I ask "do you have any questions about the instructions?"  Most newer shooters say yes, they'd like to be coached.  Nearly all shooters who are practicing for bigger and better prizes say no.  Either way is fine with me.  It the shooter says yes, I use my judgment to decide how much "coaching" to give.  Some folks want to know only if the KDs are down.  Others want to be reminded where to stage their guns, or starting positions or lines.  Others need (or at least benefit) from being reminded where to go next.  In the most extreme cases, if the shooter wants it (most often a very new shooter), I will call target numbers in sequence for them (when the sequence is explicitly stated in the instructions and there are no options for shooting it differently).  We are a friendly bunch at our club and I've never heard a single complaint about this issue.  Other TOs at our club do the same.  Of course, EOT and other big matches are a whole different thing. 

In the OP's situation, if the printed instructions were correct and available for review at the loading table, that's on the shooter for not following them.  RRR doesn't say whether the initially incorrectly given instructions were as printed, or were instead just the TO's reading mistake.

On the other hand, if the printed instructions were incorrect, and the TO read the printed wrong instructions first, and then announced a correction that was made by the MD during the PM walkthrough or at any other time before the match, I think I would view what happened almost as being TO interference.  As a shooter, I'm obligated to listen to the TO read the instructions, I think; but I'm not obligated to listen to the TO read them twice, so going to load after hearing them once should not be my problem.  I probably would have done what was needed to seek a re-shoot in that situation.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

"Carefully, clearly and completely" read the stage instructions.

I agree with Creeker. A few years ago at EOT we had a PM that had someone else read the stages and by the last day many of us had to walk away and read them in the book and hope there were no changes from the walk thru. Out of 12 stages this person never read a single one as it was written in the book and read the wrong shooting order and had to be corrected on several of them. It was not good. 
 

Randy

[July Smith]

So...  Just to be clear at least 4 people (the TO and 3 spotters) watched a shooter stage their shotgun gun wrong, 4 said nothing, 4 watched the shooter otherwise shoot the stage correctly (as per the read instructions), and then TO assigned a P at the end?  That just doesn't seem right.  No call IMHO, or at the very least a reshoot. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:38 PM by July Smith

[Shawnee Hills]

At the end of the day, it is the shooter's responsibility to understand and follow the stage instructions.  The TO is there to safely assist the shooter through the stage.  Although ensuring that the shooter begins the stage correctly and coaching along the way is nice, that's not the responsibility of the TO.  If a shooter is in such a hurry to be first in line to shoot that they cannot be bothered to listen fully to the stage briefing by the PM, then they're personally responsible for any oversight on their part.  Of course, some PM's reading of the stage can make it more confusing so that's a good time to read it yourself.  Yes, the text may not include any last minute changes but that's the time when everyone on the posse should ensure complete understanding among all.  We do talk to each other . . . right?

 

Those putting the blame on the TO fail to recognize the numerous responsibilities of the position.  When I am running the timer my focus is primarily on safety with ensuring that the shooter is completing the stage correctly secondary to that.  I once had a shooter starting a stage in an incorrect position, had already said the start line, and was clearly anticipating the beep.  I tried to remind him but it was ignored so I hit the button.  All was fine until the next monthly when I got an earful about how his P was my fault.  While it may have been nice to stop and get his full attention before starting, the mistake is still his.  I didn't like it either but that's the way it goes sometimes.

 

The OP's statement of "We have gotten where that damn buckle means so much" certainly seems to be true.  While it is nice to win one, this is a sport for entertainment purposes.  While every sport will have participants that are there solely for reward and notoriety, one has to wonder if they're not taking it a bit too far.  Those are the ones that normally are constantly misplacing blame, bickering over imperfect humans, and splitting hairs when discussing the rules.  They suck the fun out of everything.

[Texas Jack Black]

19 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Not much of a TO! 

 Nothing new been this way since the first round went down range just a bigger rule book full of mumbo jumbo. SAD and at EOT 

[Texas Jack Black]

4 hours ago, July Smith said:

So...  Just to be clear at least 4 people (the TO and 3 spotters) watched a shooter stage their shotgun gun wrong, 4 said nothing, 4 watched the shooter otherwise shoot the stage correctly (as per the read instructions), and then TO assigned a P at the end?  That just doesn't seem right.  No call IMHO, or at the very least a reshoot. 

 The fun has been sucked out of the game.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said:

At the end of the day, it is the shooter's responsibility to understand and follow the stage instructions.  The TO is there to safely assist the shooter through the stage.  Although ensuring that the shooter begins the stage correctly and coaching along the way is nice, that's not the responsibility of the TO.  If a shooter is in such a hurry to be first in line to shoot that they cannot be bothered to listen fully to the stage briefing by the PM, then they're personally responsible for any oversight on their part.  Of course, some PM's reading of the stage can make it more confusing so that's a good time to read it yourself.  Yes, the text may not include any last minute changes but that's the time when everyone on the posse should ensure complete understanding among all.  We do talk to each other . . . right?

 

Those putting the blame on the TO fail to recognize the numerous responsibilities of the position.  When I am running the timer my focus is primarily on safety with ensuring that the shooter is completing the stage correctly secondary to that.  I once had a shooter starting a stage in an incorrect position, had already said the start line, and was clearly anticipating the beep.  I tried to remind him but it was ignored so I hit the button.  All was fine until the next monthly when I got an earful about how his P was my fault.  While it may have been nice to stop and get his full attention before starting, the mistake is still his.  I didn't like it either but that's the way it goes sometimes.

 

The OP's statement of "We have gotten where that damn buckle means so much" certainly seems to be true.  While it is nice to win one, this is a sport for entertainment purposes.  While every sport will have participants that are there solely for reward and notoriety, one has to wonder if they're not taking it a bit too far.  Those are the ones that normally are constantly misplacing blame, bickering over imperfect humans, and splitting hairs when discussing the rules.  They suck the fun out of everything.

The TO 'runs' the stage. Benefit of dought always goes to the shooter.

It should have been a 'no-call' or a reshoot. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The TO 'runs' the stage. Benefit of dought always goes to the shooter.

It should have been a 'no-call' or a reshoot. 

I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of a "no-call" when you allow a shooter to get away with shooting a stage different than the stage instructions call for. Many years ago at a large match an entire posse had to reshoot a stage because they were allowed to shoot it different from the stage instructions. The next posse came up before they finished the stage, saw how they were shooting and asked a Match RO about it, he watched as more shooters shot it wrong and nothing was called. After discussion with the Match Director the entire posse was required to reshoot the stage.  You can't let one shooter shoot the stage one way and then tell the rest of the posse that they have to shoot it a different way.  For me, at least, it would definitely be a competitive advantage to stage the shotgun in the first window. I could load it while moving to the next window and just close and shoot once I get there. 

The shooter could have definitely asked for a reshoot, but I would have been surprised if he had gotten it. 

 

JMHO

 

Randy 

Edited Wednesday at 10:12 PM by Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903
left out a word

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

21 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I don't think you fully understand the ramifications of a "no-call" when you allow a shooter to get away with shooting a stage different than the stage instructions call for. Many years ago at a large match an entire posse had to reshoot a stage because they were allowed to shoot it different from the stage instructions. The next posse came up before they finished the stage, saw how they were shooting and asked a Match RO about it, he watched as more shooters shot it wrong and nothing was called. After discussion with the Match Director the entire posse was required to reshoot the stage.  You can't let one shooter shoot the stage one way and then tell the rest of the posse that they have to shoot it a different way.  For me, at least, it would definitely be a competitive advantage to stage the shotgun in the first window. I could load it while moving to the next window and just close and shoot once I get there. 

The shooter could have definitely asked for a reshoot, but I would have been if he had gotten it. 

 

JMHO

 

Randy 

Then it could have been a reshoot.

I really don't see any advantage the shooter gained to negate a no call. 

Wish the stage layout was posted.

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

 

There are three reasons for a reshoot. Timer failure, prop failure and RO interference.

 

None of which apply here.

 

Marshal Stone

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

There are three reasons for a reshoot. Timer failure, prop failure and RO interference.

 

None of which apply here.

 

Marshal Stone

Wouldn't it be considered a 'false start' with incorrectly staged guns?

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Wouldn't it be considered a 'false start' with incorrectly staged guns?

 

No, shooter is responsible for correctly staging guns or correcting on the clock. He could have picked up the SG at position 1, restaged it at position 2, immediately picked it back up and shot and it would have been a no-call.

 

Randy

Edited Wednesday at 10:18 PM by Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903
punctuation

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

11 minutes ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

There are three reasons for a reshoot. Timer failure, prop failure and RO interference.

 

None of which apply here.

 

Marshal Stone

There is more than three!!!!!!!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

No shooter is responsible for correctly staging guns or correcting on the clock. He could have picked up the SG at position 1, restaged it at position 2, immediately picked it back up and shot and it would have been a no-call.

 

Randy

I not see'n any benefit of doubt being given to the shooter.

2 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

There is more than three!!!!!!!

Please post them.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 minute ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I not see'n any benefit of doubt being given to the shooter.

Does not apply in this situation, shooter is ultimately responsible for correctly staging their guns.

 

Randy

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

3 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

There is more than three!!!!!!!

 

Read the SHB on page 21 under No Alibi/Reshoots/restarts.

First line of sub paragraph, my statement is correct that there are only 3 reasons for a RESHOOT.

 

Marshal Stone

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 The fun has been sucked out of the game.

Well Texas Jack you hit that nail on the head! Saw pictures of the awards at EOT and a lot of the people didn't look like cowboy shooters to me!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

8 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Does not apply in this situation, shooter is ultimately responsible for correctly staging their guns.

 

Randy

Understand, but I really feel the TO should have said somedangthing.

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

32 minutes ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

Read the SHB on page 21 under No Alibi/Reshoots/restarts.

First line of sub paragraph, my statement is correct that there are only 3 reasons for a RESHOOT.

 

Marshal Stone

Well I can't read I went to California schools Well I guess counter interference could go under RO interference. I received a reshoot one time because a counter was standing in front of a doorway stopping me for coming out of the building I didn't think of a counter as a RO a lot of them can't even count and to think of them as a range officer? Sorry for the confusion !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited Wednesday at 10:54 PM by Von Dutch, SASS # 7995

[Captain Bill Burt]

I can't speak for anyone on this thread, but I love the game.  The fun is still at full blast.  Is it perfect? No, is anything?

 

The TO should have spotted it, probably 99 out of 100 times the TO would have spotted it.  99 times out of 100 the shooter would have heard the correction.

 

This time those two things unfortunately lined up and this shooter hit the 'jackpot'.  The rules as I understand them call for a P. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

There are three reasons for a reshoot. Timer failure, prop failure and RO interference.

 

None of which apply here.

 

Marshal Stone

Incorrect instruction at the reading of stage instructions IS a viable reason for a reshoot.

Instructions are OFTEN modified or adjusted from their written form; due to challenges discovered during setup or input received at posse Marshal walk through.

Reading along does NOT mean anything IF instructions are altered - this shooter could easily have believed this was a change from the book.  Should that have been questioned?  Yes.

But the shooter "should" also have a reasonable expectation of receiving correct direction.

 

So per the OP; there is plenty of blame to go around.

 

* Initially incorrect instructions delivered.

* Failure of the shooter to listen to or heed the corrected instructions.  

* Failure of the TO to observe and correct the shooters staging.

* Failure of all the "officers" of the stage to observe and correct the shooters staging.

 

The shooter earns his "P" and would be recorded as such - but the preponderance of issues would give "me" enough concern to consider a reshoot or issuing a no call. 

And contrary to what some are saying; sometimes the supposed advantage of a differing position is so insignificant that a no call can be issued without materially affecting scores. 

That would be on the Match Director to decide.

But a simple reshoot fixes the issue entirely - and the incorrect instructions being initially issued gives a reasonable argument for that path.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Oh, and that was post #10,000 for me.  A milestone.