EOT stage conventions Rule 11 -- why?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

The SASS RO QUICK REFERENCE tells us that we earn a MSV for: 

"Empty or live round in magazine, action, or on the carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded, or an empty in the chamber of a long gun- after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table."

 

EOT stage conventions Rule 11 apparently ignores this and instead says:

"There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used.  If used, they are considered illegally acquired ammunition and result in a procedural.  The extra shots are not scored.  There will be no correction of time."

 

Loading 12 in the rifle followed by shooting 10 and opening the action leaves one live round on the carrier and another live round in the magazine, necessarily resulting in an MSV under normal SASS rules.  Why doesn't EOT follow the normal SASS rule?

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

22 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

The SASS RO QUICK REFERENCE tells us that we earn a MSV for: 

"Empty or live round in magazine, action, or on the carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded, or an empty in the chamber of a long gun- after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table."

 

EOT stage conventions Rule 11 apparently ignores this and instead says:

"There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used.  If used, they are considered illegally acquired ammunition and result in a procedural.  The extra shots are not scored.  There will be no correction of time."

 

Loading 12 in the rifle followed by shooting 10 and opening the action leaves one live round on the carrier and another live round in the magazine, necessarily resulting in an MSV under normal SASS rules.  Why doesn't EOT follow the normal SASS rule?

I may be wrong, but I think there is no penalty for Overloading, provided you clear the extra rounds before discarding the rifle, or do anything that actually breaks a rule. 

 

You cannot have a range convention that makes a situation less safe.

 

IMHO

Randy

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Ah, now THAT is something I had not thought of.  It does make sense.  So, as long as you CLEAR those extra rounds on the clock and before doing anything else that breaks a rule, then you are good to go.  You've just penalized yourself whatever time it takes to clear the unused rounds.  OK.  Thanks.

[John Kloehr]

Hmm. I load 11 in the magazine. I figure on and plan for jacking out the extra round at the end of the string. Why load 11? In case I accidentally jack out a round in the course of fire. Maybe I'm a klutz.

 

So that happens. I load 11, accidentally jack out a round. Complete the string otherwise clear and discard my gun empty. Assume I know and share that it takes me 6 seconds to reload on the clock. Was the jacked out round "used?" Did rule 11 just get me out of an SOG penalty with just a P? Hey, given I just said what I did it and why, I avoided reloading on the clock. What would the call have been without rule 11 if I had jacked the extra round out before discarding my rifle? With this info, I think SOG.

 

 

 

Edited February 26 by John Kloehr
typo

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

19 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Hmm. I load 11 in the magazine. I figure on and plan for jacking out the extra round at the end of the string. Why load 11? In case I accidentally jack out a round in the course of fire. Maybe I'm a klutz.

 

So that happens. I load 11, accidentally jack out a round. Complete the string otherwise clear and discard my gun empty. Assume I know and share that it takes me 6 seconds to reload on the clock. Was the jacked out round "used?" Did rule 11 just get me out of an SOG penalty with just a P? Hey, given I just said what I did it and why, I avoided reloading on the clock. What would the call have been without rule 11 if I had jacked the extra round out before discarding my rifle? With this info, I think SOG.

 

 

 

That's what it seems like -- it simultaneously (1) eliminates the SOG and (2) gives an advantage to those whose rifle magazines hold more than 10 rounds.  Maybe I'm still misunderstanding or missing something.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Overloading the Rifle (2024)

[El Chapo]

Does the ruling change if the stage requires a "reload"?  Is the wild bunch rule parallel?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, El Chapo said:

Does the ruling change if the stage requires a "reload"?  Is the wild bunch rule parallel?

 

There's a difference between a "reload" vs a "preload" (REF: p.2 of the previously linked doc.)

SASS rules re ammo required for stage reloads do not include an extra round in the magazine loaded at the LT:

Quote

Ammunition Belts and Loops

 - Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.

SHB p.3

 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

OK, so if I understand PWB correctly (which a highly dubious assumption), then there is NO POINT and NO BENEFIT from loading 11 when the stage calls for 10 rifle shots.  Under no circumstance may that 11th round be used legally.  Right?  If yes, correct, then EOT Rule 11 is merely about "accidentally" overloading the rifle, and merely restates the regular SASS rules anyway.  Right?

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

13 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Under no circumstance may that 11th round be used legally.  Right?  If yes, correct, then EOT Rule 11 is merely about "accidentally" overloading the rifle, and merely restates the regular SASS rules anyway.  Right?

Yes, in my opinion that is correct.

 

Randy

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The clarifications regarding "no penalty" for overloading the rifle magazine at the LT also eliminated the possible assessment of a SDQ for:

"Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures."
REF: SHB pp. 23 & 29 

 

 

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

gotta start practicing counting to 10 😁

[Stump Water]

21 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

EOT stage conventions Rule 11 apparently ignores this and instead says:

"There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used. 

 

"Any firearm" ?

 

Don't think so.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

16 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

"Any firearm" ?

 

Don't think so.

Explain?  EOT stage convention Rule 11 does say "any firearm."

[Stump Water]

36 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Explain?  EOT stage convention Rule 11 does say "any firearm."

 

If you overload a revolver (6) there's going to be a penalty when you holster it.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

31 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

If you overload a revolver (6) there's going to be a penalty when you holster it.

Unless your pistol has a hammer down position between chambers or, like some revolvers chambered in .32 H&R Mag, it has 7 chambers so you can accidentally load 6 and still have 1 empty.  So you are correct about that for a 6-chambered cylinder in a gun without the intermediate position -- holstering before leaving the loading table might earn the SDQ for "Holstering or staging revolver with hammer ... down (on a live round)."  

 

Edited February 26 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

46 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

If you overload a revolver (6) there's going to be a penalty when you holster it.

 

17 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I don't think so.

 

Under Stage Disqualification:

 

 Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

SHB 23

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 minute ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

 

Under Stage Disqualification:

 

 Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

SHB 23

Right, as my edited answer says.  I was initially wrong, not thinking about at the loading table, only thinking about after shooting.  There are some revolvers that can be loaded with six without breaking that rule, though not too many folks shoot them.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

6 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

There are some revolvers that can be loaded with six without breaking that rule, though not too many folks shoot them.

But it does break the rule that says revolvers can only be loaded with 5 rounds.

 

Randy

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

But then we go right back to where this whole thing started.  EOT stage convention Rule 11 specifically covers "any firearm" when it says ""There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used."  So the shooter doesn't get the SDQ for "Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures," but might still get the SDQ for breaking a different rule.  

 

In addition, the rule you are referring to specifically applies only to six-shot revolvers: "Six-shot revolvers may be loaded at the loading table with a maximum of five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber."  SHB Ver. 28, p. 14.  As previously said, some folks do shoot 7-shot .32 H&R Magnum revolvers, so those folks can load 6 (why they would ever do so is a mystery to me, unless purely accidentally) and manage to not break any rules.  Good luck with that!
 

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

But then we go right back to where this whole thing started.  EOT stage convention Rule 11 specifically covers "any firearm" when it says ""There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used."  So the shooter doesn't get the SDQ for "Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures," but might still get the SDQ for breaking a different rule.  

 

In addition, the rule you are referring to specifically applies only to six-shot revolvers: "Six-shot revolvers may be loaded at the loading table with a maximum of five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber."  SHB Ver. 28, p. 14.  As previously said, some folks do shoot 7-shot .32 H&R Magnum revolvers, so those folks can load 6 (why they would ever do so is a mystery to me, unless purely accidentally) and manage to not break any rules.  Good luck with that!
 

The more this question gets explored, the more I find it was a really good question.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I don’t find any reference to 7 shot revolvers being legal, but if they are I’m sure you would only be allowed to load 5. 
 

IMHO

Randy

[Crisco]

SHB Page 39 “cylinders may have no less than 5 and no more than 6 chambers.”

Edited February 27 by Crisco
spelling correction

[El Chapo]

13 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

The more this question gets explored, the more I find it was a really good question.

I'm more confused than ever.

[McCandless]

12 hours ago, Crisco said:

SHB Page 39 “cylinders may have no less than 5 and no more than 6 chambers.”

 

Isn't there an exception for the Nagant Revolver?

[McCandless]

On 2/25/2026 at 6:30 PM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Ah, now THAT is something I had not thought of.  It does make sense.  So, as long as you CLEAR those extra rounds on the clock and before doing anything else that breaks a rule, then you are good to go.  You've just penalized yourself whatever time it takes to clear the unused rounds.  OK.  Thanks.

 

This rule really comes in handy when the stage calls for 9 rounds, but we're so used to loading 10.  If you can catch yourself and realize before discarding that you still have one left, and jack it out at the end of the string.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

12 hours ago, Crisco said:

SHB Page 39 “cylinders may have no less than 5 and no more than 6 chambers.”

Didn't know that.  

 

OK, let's recap:  

EOT stage conventions Rule 11 says:

"There is no penalty for overloading any firearm if the extra rounds are not used.  If used, they are considered illegally acquired ammunition and result in a procedural.  The extra shots are not scored.  There will be no correction of time."

But EVERYONE agrees that it cannot possibly mean exactly what it explicitly says -- "NO PENALTY for overloading ANY FIREARM" -- because it CANNOT apply in any circumstance to loading six in a six-shot revolver and then holstering it at the loading area, which WILL still be a penalty, namely, an SDQ.

 

So what have we learned?  That the EOT stage convention Rule 11 is not worded properly.  It definitely applies to rifles.  It would seem to be irrelevant to shotguns which are loaded on the clock in Cowboy.  And it cannot possibly apply to revolvers UNLESS the good folks of EOT intended to eliminate the usual SASS rule that "Six-shot revolvers may be loaded at the loading table with a maximum of five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber."  SHB Ver. 28, p. 14. 

 

The properly worded EOT stage convention Rule 11 should thus read: 

"There is no penalty for overloading a rifle any firearm if the extra rounds are not used. If used, they are considered illegally acquired ammunition and result in a procedural. The extra shots are not scored. There will be no correction of time."

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Isn't there an exception for the Nagant Revolver?

 

Yes...under OTHER APPROVED FIREARMS (SHB p.40)

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

16 hours ago, Crisco said:

SHB Page 39 “cylinders may have no less than 5 and no more than 6 chambers.”

 

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Yes...under OTHER APPROVED FIREARMS (SHB p.40)

 

That covers center fire and rim fire. You could shoot a 9 shot LeMat as well.