Did you ever wonder what 38 Smith and Wesson does in a gel block?

[Dapper Dave]

Of course you didn't, who would? It's a dead caliber, last guns made for it were some leftover Harrington and Richardson parts in the very early 2000s. Some factory ammo still exists, but makers are panicked over someone using them in one of the black powder turn of the century guns. So who would possibly want to spend the time money and effort on something oddball like this

?

 

Oh, yeah...him. *sigh*.

 

So, test gun is a 5 inch SW Victory Model unmolested with a Pachmeyer grip installed just for testing. Ammo shown is Matt's Bullets 200 gr Webley load, replicating the British load used right before WWII, and a box of the only modern "self defense" ammo made, from Buffalo Bore, (EXPENSIVE!), and of course one box of traditional junk. I didn't even  bother shooting the 146gr stuff in the jello. I also didn't use the 4 layers of denim because, well, i expected things to be a lot slower than  this! The blue IMGUR links are to video shot by my loving wife. If you can slow it down, feel free. 

Some velocity info to get started.

Matt's

Buffalo Bore

 

PPU

 

 

But in gel, what did the is old slow and weak load do? Disregard the first track, that was a handload with the NOE 204 gr slug over 2 grains of Bullseye, the same bullet Matt's uses.

https://i.imgur.com/g9Ubmr3.mp4

 

Not what I expected from the "tumbling bullet" so many people talk about.

 

The Buffalo Bore did better, but the first one tore into the table, so we aren't counting that one.

https://i.imgur.com/aKsf4i0.mp4

 

Even the slow handloads zipped right through. This one is 2.1 grains of Bullseye with the bullet set WAY out to use the length of the Smith's cylinder.

 

https://i.imgur.com/jVeuAec.mp4

 

Do we know any more than when we started? Other than Dapper Dave likes to waste money on goofy projects, no, not much...except that even a slow old load will zip right through 16 inches of ballistic gelatin without slowing down. maybe she ain't such a useless caliber after all...

Edited February 12 by Dapper Dave

[DeaconKC]

Thanks, that was fun!

[Pat Riot]

Years ago I came really close to buying an old S&W chambered in .38 S&W thinking it was .38 Special. Pssst never drink beer at a gun show. 

As I was whipping out my cash my buddy walks up and says “Hey, that revolver shoots .38 S&W, not .38 Special. 
Money went back in my pocket and I thanked my buddy by buying us another beer…that we didn’t need. 

 

Now I wish he hadn’t have walked up when he did because I know I would have had a lot of fun with that revolver. 
 

No, I don’t want one now.  I have been consolidating my guns and the cartridges i load now. 

[Dapper Dave]

The Victory is a lot of fun to shoot, that's for certain, but with the dearth of factory ammo, handloading is almost a requirement. LAGS the gunsmith did hone out a Lee 9mm 124gr mold and a Lee push through sizer to produce a .361 sized 124+/- slug. It works quite well in this grande old lady. 

The NOE mold I use for the 204s is a pain in the behind, really hard to get good bullets - I should send it to Scarlett. 

 

Now come to think of it, she probably could make a nice Cowboy 38SW load, but probably not with this bullet. 

[watab kid]

no , ive conducted tests with some folks developing new defense rounds in the past , however you look at it its not a leasant thought if on the recieving end 

[Dapper Dave]

Nope, the round is definitely not as weak as I once thought. It's no 9mm or 45 ACP by a LONG shot, but maybe there was a reason makers kept making guns in this caliber for over a century. 

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks

 

Not surprising that the rounds fully penetrated the ballistic gel. Hard cast lead bullets are unlikely to expand unless they hit something like bone.  Bet if you recovered any of the fired bullets the only marks on them would be from the rifling. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have often felt that even in loads that approximate the vintage level of performance created by black powder, that .38 S&W is nothing to dismiss.  I'd say it is at least as effective as .380 ACP, and depending on the load used, possibly even comparable to .38 Special.

Where did you get the .38/200 ammo?  That round, while it uses the same case as the .38 S&W is quite an overlooked, decently powered cartridge.   More Importantly, what is it headstamped?

 

Even generic factory ammo in this caliber is downloaded quite a bit because of the many old guns out there for it.   But if you've got something like a Mark IV Webley or a Smith & Wesson Victory model, of even just a generic, not a top break revolver, you can work up pretty decent loads for it.   Just don't approach .38/200 levels unless you've got a very modern well made gun.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

On 2/12/2026 at 2:10 PM, Pat Riot said:

. Pssst never drink beer at a gun show. 

 

Last time I did, it was $13.50 a beer. And not even really good beer.

[Sedalia Dave]

I’m at gunshot today and one of the vendors has a box of factory 38 S&W for $30

It’s a partial box (37 rounds) of Remington Kleenbore. 

 

Edited February 14 by Sedalia Dave

[Dapper Dave]

The 38/200 is current production from Matt's Bullets, available online. Brass is Starline, the only big name making this caliber brass for reloading. The bullet mold for the 200 grain bullet is from NOE. 

There is new factory ammo available right now from PPU and Remington,  but the generic 146gr load. The Buffalo Bore is loaded in Starline brass.

Edited February 14 by Dapper Dave

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

The 38/200 is current production from Matt's Bullets, available online. Brass is Starline, the only big name making this caliber brass for reloading. .

 

Is it headstamped .38/200 or .38 S&W

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

I've been loading a 148 HBWC over a mild charge of Unique for both the top break and the bored out Victory model.

My bored out example will admit a .38 Special cartridge but it still has the .38 S&W diameter barrel.

Mild, pleasant, accurate ... but I honestly never knew it was that effective in a gel block!

Dapper Dave, thank you for this!

[Dapper Dave]

4 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Is it headstamped .38/200 or .38 S&W

38 Smith and Wesson. I've never seen brass headstamped 38/200. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

10 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

38 Smith and Wesson. I've never seen brass headstamped 38/200. 

That's a good point.   I do have some WWII British surplus .38/200, and it has no headstamps of any kind.

I understand that an ammo maker in India is still making factory new .38/200 as the cartridge and the guns that shoot it are still in wide use there.   I'd be curious to know what, if any, headstamps that ammo has.

Interesting trivia:   In the 25th Anniversary episode of Doctor Who, Brigadier Alistair Lethbridge-Stewart, instead of the Browning Hi Power he carried back when he was a regular on the show 15 years earlier, was carrying a Webley Mark IV .38 that was implied to be his personal property.   At once point, when he was being told about all the special weapons and ammunition that UNIT had to fight various monsters and aliens, he asks if they have any silver bullets.  When he is told no, he orders them to get some.

Later in the episode, someone hands him a box of silver bullet cartridges for his Webley.  The box is clearly marked...  .38 S&W.  (And yes, he uses

them dispatch the monster villain later in the show.)

 

So it seems that even in the UK, getting .38/200 ammo is problematic.  

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

16 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

38 Smith and Wesson. I've never seen brass headstamped 38/200. 

British name for the same thing with a 200 grain bullet.  Works just fine.

 

I have two o'd S&W break tops (38 single action second model and a so called Mexican model, and an Iver Johnson (?) hard to load and unload single action POS....but it's still fun to shoot.  I used to carry one or two of them when doing period "townsfolk" costuming with the Elks Opera House Guild.  

 

Sometimes I carried something else fun, like a Remington O/U .41, a Sharps 1A four barrel .22 short, a S&W No. 1 1/2 SA .32 S&W, or one of my favorites, an  Iver Johnson break top  five shot "hammerless" DA .32 with an original rebounding firing pin in 90% condition.

Edited February 15 by Forty Rod SASS 3935

[Dapper Dave]

Yes, I know, one of my factory ammo boxes is even marked 38/200. But being that it has been 99 years since the original 38/200 round was officially withdrawn from British service, the new brass used is Starline, who I think is the only US maker actually still making the brass. Most of the original British loads were headstamped ".380 MK 1" for the 200 grain bullet, though I did find at least 4 that were actually headstamped "38-200". 

I have heard tell that India still has some Webley's in emergency reserve, (would be one HECKUVA emergency!), and they do order 38SW ammunition once in a while, but that is the only place I have heard of that actually still uses it. 
I have a 38SW Iver Johnson in 38SW black powder, but during this day, when I tried to get velocity testing on my gallery load, the cylinder fractured. She is permanently retired. My son has a Harrington and Richardson Young American in 38 SW, solid frame black powder, and it IS a pain to unload, gotta use a brass rod one at a time. He loves that weird grip, though. 

 

Forty, if you want you lady companion to carry a period sidearm, perhaps this one would be perfect, the Harrington and Richardson America, a TINY .32 SW revolver. This one is proofed for smokeless, but the timing ain't the greatest. That's a 9mm next to the .32 SW round for size comparison. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

and an Iver Johnson (?) hard to load and unload single action POS...

 

I've been looking for one of those.   If you really think it's a POS and are willing to part with it, PM me.  (Assuming that in spite of its S-yness that it still shoots okay...)

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Thanks, but I think I'll keep it.  It's been on my wall for almost 13 years and I'd feel lonely with it gone.  Look on some of the on-line sites.  I think you could find one for around $150.00, maybe less.

[Dapper Dave]

I got the pair for 75 each...

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

5 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

I got the pair for 75 each...

Got pics?

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

10 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

Thanks, but I think I'll keep it.  It's been on my wall for almost 13 years and I'd feel lonely with it gone.  Look on some of the on-line sites.  I think you could find one for around $150.00, maybe less.

Fair enough.

 

The single actions are harder to find than the contemporary DA's.  So when I saw you had one, I thought I'd take a shot. 

Good luck with it being a beloved friend on the wall.   Those are good things to have.

[Dapper Dave]

6 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Got pics?

 

Mine on the right, my son's on the left, both DA/SA. Mine now has a cracked cylinder, completely unusable unless I can find another one in decent condition. 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

These small .32 and .38 revolvers are fascinating to me on so many levels.

Here's another thread about them if you'd like to see some pics of some of mine...
 

 

[Vail Vigilante]

Dapper Dave,

I had to read this twice. I am sure impressed with the BB offering.

These are very impressive results.

[Dapper Dave]

Glad you enjoyed!

[Dapper Dave]

Breaking news - someone was able to slow down one of the videos my wife took. Let me see if I can upload the GIF file the guy made of just 13 frames of the video, which appears to show the first round, the NOE 200 gr bullet atop 2 grains of Bullseye, really causing a wide temporary stretch cavity near the end of the block, possibly even swapping end for end. Unfortunately, my phone is the best camera we had...

 

[Dapper Dave]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the test but I think it's cool. Picked it up for very cheap, actually looks like a well built bit of kit, made for the 4 inch barrel but BARELY fits the 5 incher. Now...to load snake shot capsule into 38SW rounds...and this whole setup could do double duty as a quick-grab-while-walking-the-dog snake gun, too.

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

In case anybody's interested, Miwall has .38 S&W in stock. Several loadings, 148gr and 158gr.