Cowboy Guns for CCW Use?

[Stump Water]

I know Ayoob started the wagon rolling and everyone has jumped on, but...

 

Has there EVER been a circumstance where "handloads" used in self defense have had any bearing on the outcome of the aftermath?

 

 

[Rip Snorter]

This is the twin of the old evil handload story.  No one has examples. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

36 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

I know Ayoob started the wagon rolling and everyone has jumped on, but...

 

Has there EVER been a circumstance where "handloads" used in self defense have had any bearing on the outcome of the aftermath?

 

 

No, there never has been.

But let that go...

I think people are overlooking the main point I was trying to bring up.   Now yes, there are things that are "better suited" for use as a CCW gun than an old time revolver design.   But that's not what I am talking about.

My point is that for many of us, not only do we know HOW TO USE these older designs, they might also be the only guns that many of us know how to properly operate.  I have met many a Cowboy Shooter who has never fired any kind of an auto loading pistol.  Trying to use something that you are unfamiliar with when everything is on the line is not exactly a good idea.  On the other hand, given how familiar with our cowboy guns, I simply consider that some of us could be served by them quite well in the role that they were originally designed for.

[Rip Snorter]

In trained hands, there is nothing faster first shot out of the leather than an SAA. Until the 357, there wasn't anything that hit harder than a 45 Colt.  Big heavy bullet - Elmer K quote "Lets a lot of air in and a lot of blood out."  I have shot nearly every type of handgun ex a machine pistol.  I would feel comfortable with one of my SAAs if it was easier to conceal.  Round count not an issue.  I carry a 45 Commander because I shoot it well and it is easy to hide - I am a good bit slimmer than average here based on gear for sale. A bonus with my choice?, 9 x 230 grain HST. I havent met a lot of folks who shoot a small gun better than they do Commander or larger.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Stump Water said:

I know Ayoob started the wagon rolling and everyone has jumped on, but...

 

Has there EVER been a circumstance where "handloads" used in self defense have had any bearing on the outcome of the aftermath?

 

 

 

As I said above - if the shooting is justified, it doesn't matter where you shoot them or with what.

If the shooting is not justified - the same applies.

 

But when a courtroom is part of the equation - decisions are not as simplistic as THIS SPECIFIC DETAIL caused the jury to decide THAT SPECIFIC OUTCOME.

 

No, there has never (to the best of my knowledge) been a self defense case where the decision was DOCUMENTED as having turned on the use of handloads.

 

But I am also not aware of any documented decision where a case turned because of the defendants acne or greasy hair.

Or a documented decision made where the case turned because the defendant was a pretty girl with a nice body 

(But we both know it has happened.  And likely many, many, many times for both).

 

If you find yourself in front of a jury - you don't need ANY item that may be perceived (or can be twisted) negatively.

 

Whether that item individually sways a decision or not - that negative can be a tiny factor in the preponderance of things being evaluated.

 

In a gunfight; your handloads are, at best, a wash against factory self defense ammo.

 

In a courtroom; they may be a liability.

 

There is no logical reason to willingly assign yourself a negative - no matter how slight or likely meaningless.

[Stump Water]

15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

There is no logical reason to willingly assign yourself a negative - no matter how slight or likely meaningless.

 

You could say the same about carrying Hydra-Shock or Black Talon.  

[Alpo]

Something people might want to consider before they decide to carry their cowboy guns for self-defense.

 

Load difference.

 

Let's say you play cowboy with a Ruger 357. Shooting 38 specials with 125 grain bullet at 610 ft per second.

 

You carry that same gun for self-defense, because "you're used to that gun!!" Except now it is loaded with 158 grain jacketed soft point 357 Magnums.

 

You better make your first shot count, because if all you're used to shooting is those mouse farts at cowboy matches, if you let a real one go you're going to stand there in shock. WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!!??? DO I STILL HAVE A HAND?? HOW COME I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING???

[Rip Snorter]

49 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

You could say the same about carrying Hydra-Shock or Black Talon.  

Show me a single case where the ammunition or gunsmithing has been an influential in court and I'll be quiet on the issue.  Kinda like the voter ID "disenfranchisement" crap. Anyone who has enough rationality left to vote, has some form of acceptable Govt ID.  There was even a substantial cash reward for a single no ID example, AFAIK, still unclaimed.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

50 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Something people might want to consider before they decide to carry their cowboy guns for self-defense.

 

Load difference.

 

Let's say you play cowboy with a Ruger 357. Shooting 38 specials with 125 grain bullet at 610 ft per second.

I don't use mouse Phart loads. I shoot 255 gr. 45s for recreational purposes, and 200 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points as my carry load, though I plan on getting some of the new Personal Defense Hydra-Shok Deep, 45 Colt, 210 Grain, Hydra-Shok Deep Jacketed Hollow Point ammo when I can. As for my .38s, all 158 gr. ammo for fun, and Winchester 130 gr. Defender for carry. 

[Alpo]

7 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I don't use mouse Phart loads

Neither do I. But I would say at least 90% of cowboy shooters do.

 

I was at a match one time and when I came off the line this young man came up to me and offered the excellent advice that if I were to learn how to reload I could make lighter loads and then better my time.

 

I told him that I had been reloading longer than he had been alive.

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

Let's say you play cowboy with a Ruger 357. Shooting 38 specials with 125 grain bullet at 610 ft per second.

 

Ya know,  I don't think it would bounce off.

[Cotton Eye Joe]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

No, there never has been.

But let that go...

I think people are overlooking the main point I was trying to bring up.   Now yes, there are things that are "better suited" for use as a CCW gun than an old time revolver design.   But that's not what I am talking about.

My point is that for many of us, not only do we know HOW TO USE these older designs, they might also be the only guns that many of us know how to properly operate.  I have met many a Cowboy Shooter who has never fired any kind of an auto loading pistol.  Trying to use something that you are unfamiliar with when everything is on the line is not exactly a good idea.  On the other hand, given how familiar with our cowboy guns, I simply consider that some of us could be served by them quite well in the role that they were originally designed for.

That mindset ruined Tom Horn's brilliant escape! Haha

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The huge fireball, especially in the dark would have to be quite effective!! They'd think you grenade them! Might be a good reason for BP shotshells in the bedroom gun! If racking doesn't deter them, the nuclear fireball might!

And it might set fire to your entire house, too.

[El Chapo]

9 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

Also,  use only factory ammunition. 

 

To the OP...there is something to be said for psychological effect of the  dull BOOM, huge fireball,  and cloud of sulphurous smoke from 25 grains of FFFg.

 

When I was in law school, I searched to the end of the earth, reading every reported case with the word "reload" in it.

 

I was unable to find any case in the entire United States where that claim had ever been made.  Or, perhaps more precisely, where it was presented in any capacity in an appeal.

 

The crime lab in New Mexico hasn't tested for GSR in decades as far as I know, and while it would be photographed, it's hard for me to believe that the detective would even notice what was in the unspent rounds in your gun unless there was something really unique about it.

 

I'm similarly unaware of any case where the type of gun, modified or not, played any significant part in the argument of a case at trial, although I can't claim to have ever researched it and wouldn't know where to begin.

 

I did have a murder case with a hi point once.  Yes, it jammed.  The victim still died.  And the guy who killed him is in prison.

Edited February 10 by El Chapo

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

There was at one time a lawyer by the alias of Nubbins Colt who frequently said juries would not think kindly to folks who carried “Cowboy Guns”.

Most of us agreed with him.  Finally someone challenged him to find a court case where this actually happened.  He could not.

Edited February 10 by Pulp, SASS#28319

[Dapper Dave]

"Liberal " in the classic sense, not the hijacked meaning of today. Arizona has excellent self defense laws as well.

[watab kid]

ive often thought it might be fun to have a cowboy CCW but its just not practical - yes i have a shoulder holster and a gun for it but not as concealable or affective as the modern  SIG i carry or the backup colt , 

 

i carry in case of something i never want to have happen , im not expecting norwanting such to occur , its my last resort 

 

i like my cowboy guns to be just the opposite planned and anticipated - enjoyed , 

[Subdeacon Joe]

I don't recall the particulars, but about 10 or 12 years ago there wa a case in NJ (NJ v. Diaz? Biaz? Bias?) in which gun shot residue and reloaded ammunition played a part,  although I think that they might have just muddled the case for both sides.  As i said,  I don't recall the particulars, other than that they played a not minor role in the trial.  Point is that they did factor into it.

 

Around the same time in, I  think, San Bernardino County California a guy who was either an off duty or retired LEO and also a competitive shooter in one of the Run-n-Gun sports was involved in a shooting incident,  I think he shot someone who was holding up a convenience store, and much was made about him being a competitive shooter,  so he MUST be out to shoot people.  He wasn't prosecuted,  but again, it was something that could possibly have been used against him.  I vaguely recall a couple of other incidents from further back,  but I can't remember even the sketchiest thing. 

 

But you don't offer anything that an opponent may be able to use again you.

 

In a way it's like the (turn hyperbole on) "Well I  carry 3 guns and 4mfour 20-round magazines for each because I might be attacked by 34 thugs as I'm walking to my car!"(turn hyperbole off) when it's mentioned that the average DGU when shots are actually fired are 3 or 4 rounds. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

The one court case I have heard about wasn't a self defense case. The question was did the wife shoot herself committing suicide or did the husband shoot her and try to make it appear to have been suicide? It involved reloaded ammo including more then one load. This supposedly made it difficult to determine with gun shot residue patterns what had actually happened.  Can't remember the outcome. 

[watab kid]

1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I don't recall the particulars, but about 10 or 12 years ago there wa a case in NJ (NJ v. Diaz? Biaz? Bias?) in which gun shot residue and reloaded ammunition played a part,  although I think that they might have just muddled the case for both sides.  As i said,  I don't recall the particulars, other than that they played a not minor role in the trial.  Point is that they did factor into it.

 

Around the same time in, I  think, San Bernardino County California a guy who was either an off duty or retired LEO and also a competitive shooter in one of the Run-n-Gun sports was involved in a shooting incident,  I think he shot someone who was holding up a convenience store, and much was made about him being a competitive shooter,  so he MUST be out to shoot people.  He wasn't prosecuted,  but again, it was something that could possibly have been used against him.  I vaguely recall a couple of other incidents from further back,  but I can't remember even the sketchiest thing. 

 

But you don't offer anything that an opponent may be able to use again you.

 

In a way it's like the (turn hyperbole on) "Well I  carry 3 guns and 4mfour 20-round magazines for each because I might be attacked by 34 thugs as I'm walking to my car!"(turn hyperbole off) when it's mentioned that the average DGU when shots are actually fired are 3 or 4 rounds. 

my take is you use as many rounds as it requires to neutralize the situation - if its more than you have available you lose 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

23 minutes ago, watab kid said:

my take is you use as many rounds as it requires to neutralize the situation - if its more than you have available you lose 

The conventional wisdom says most shootouts are at less than three yards - with less than three shots fired.

 

Assuming you never miss AND your assailant(s) is/ are nice enough to go down quickly - being limited to five rounds may be fine 

 

But the issue with "most" shootouts is that it is not "all" - meaning there are "some" that required more ammo or happened further away.

 

I would hate to be in the "some" group if I am only prepared for "most".

 

Never heard of anyone who has ever been in an armed conflict; wishing they had carried less ammo.

 

Desert Scorpion carries a 15 round Smith & Wesson 9mm Equalizer.

Painted Lady carries a 15 round Sig 365 9mm

Creeker carries an 11 round pistol with two  extra magazines.

Tisas Stingray Bobtail 4" 1911 9mm

[Alpo]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The conventional wisdom says most shootouts

 

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

But the issue with "most" shootouts

I had not heard it as "most". I've always heard it as "the average shootout" requires less than three rounds.

 

So we have 20 shootouts. 19 of them are over in two rounds.

 

2 * 19 is 38.

 

The 20th shootout is the one I'm in. I have an 18 round magazine in my Beretta 92 with one up the pipe, and the bad guy finally stopped shooting and falls over just as my slide locks back. So my shootout required 19 rounds.

 

But you add my 19 to the previous 38 and we have 57, and we divide that by 20 and we end up with - well what do you know. We end up with an average of less than three rounds!!!!!

 

That's wonderful. I still needed 19.

 

[Johnny Buck]

I think Creeker's first post hit the nail on the head. 

 

Avoidance - it is easiest to survive a gunfight if you are never in a gunfight.

 

Competency - if you find yourself in a gunfight; be the best prepared you can be with equipment (firearm, ammo, gear).

 

Legally - the conflict is not over when the armed threat is over; you still have to survive any consequences of your choices.

 

Never put yourself in a situation where you have to use force.  Be aware of your surroundings.  I would defer to those that have been in the service or law enforcement that have actually been in a gun fight!  I practiced Martial Arts for over 30 years, only been in two fights and neither ended well.  I have also been shot (it hurts like hell) and have pointed a gun at someone (while on the job) and that is the scariest thing I have ever done.  I don't feel SASS guns have any place in self-defense.  They are big, bulky, hard to conceal.  The type of ammo is the least of my worries.  I carry something that will stop the threat.  Everything else after that will work itself out.

 

Don't hate me, just my thoughts like everyone else.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

9 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

The one court case I have heard about wasn't a self defense case. The question was did the wife shoot herself committing suicide or did the husband shoot her and try to make it appear to have been suicide? It involved reloaded ammo including more then one load. This supposedly made it difficult to determine with gun shot residue patterns what had actually happened.  Can't remember the outcome. 

That's the case that Mas Ayoob cites. A man named Daniel Bias gave his wife a mix of handloads that he'd made, to carry in her S&W 686. He was later accused of shooting her in the head. He claimed they were arguing and he was trying to get the gun away from her. 

The question came from forensics not being able to test how far the gun was from her because of the handloads. 

After eight and a half YEARS, and FOUR trials, he was eventually convicted of "reckless Manslaughter", and got 6 years.

More on that here:  https://www.mcall.com/1997/09/27/phillipsburg-man-convicted-in-wifes-gunshot-slaying-gets-state-jail-term-daniel-bias-jr-tried-to-convince-a-jury-his-27-year-old-wife-shot-herself-in-the-head-as-he-tried-to-grab-the-gun/

Ayoob's arguments are thus: 

(1) Forensic Disadvantages: Hand loads can complicate forensic analysis (e.g., gunshot residue testing) and may prevent the replication of ammunition for scientific testing, hindering a defense.

(2) Prosecution Argument: Opposing counsel might argue that a defendant who uses custom ammunition is intentionally manufacturing evidence or seeking higher lethality.

(3) Expert Advice: Ayoob advises that for concealed carry and self-defense, reliable, factory-manufactured ammunition should be used to avoid creating "ammunition-related" issues for a jury.

Edited February 10 by Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770

[Chantry]

8 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

That's the case that Mas Ayoob cites. A man named Daniel Bias gave his wife a mix of handloads that he'd made, to carry in her S&W 686. He was later accused of shooting her in the head. He claimed they were arguing and he was trying to get the gun away from her. 

The question came from forensics not being able to test how far the gun was from her because of the handloads. 

After eight and a half YEARS, and FOUR trials, he was eventually convicted of "reckless Manslaughter", and got 6 years.

More on that here:  https://www.mcall.com/1997/09/27/phillipsburg-man-convicted-in-wifes-gunshot-slaying-gets-state-jail-term-daniel-bias-jr-tried-to-convince-a-jury-his-27-year-old-wife-shot-herself-in-the-head-as-he-tried-to-grab-the-gun/

Ayoob's arguments are thus: 

(1) Forensic Disadvantages: Hand loads can complicate forensic analysis (e.g., gunshot residue testing) and may prevent the replication of ammunition for scientific testing, hindering a defense.

(2) Prosecution Argument: Opposing counsel might argue that a defendant who uses custom ammunition is intentionally manufacturing evidence or seeking higher lethality.

(3) Expert Advice: Ayoob advises that for concealed carry and self-defense, reliable, factory-manufactured ammunition should be used to avoid creating "ammunition-related" issues for a jury.

 

In other words don't give the prosecutor more things to potentially use against you in a trial that your defense counsel can't defend/explain.

 

The same applies to a civil suit depending your state's laws.

[Texas Maverick]

18 hours ago, Chantry said:

And know your state laws regarding self defense and when you CAN and CANNOT use deadly force.

 

Not every state has Texas's liberal (no pun intended) laws regarding using deadly force.

Not every part of Texas has the same focus on deadly force. Austin, Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth and El Paso all are run by mostly blue factors and can be contradictive to the rest of the state.

 

TM

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

Anything I could reasonably say on the subject, has already been said.

No sense to plow the same ground twice.

Looks like it comes down to my father's sage observation:

"You pays-a you money and takes-a you choice."

(The older the Grand Old Man becomes, the smarter he gets ... funny how that works!)

[Texas Maverick]

I would only add that to help with the final step is to have a good insurance policy. I have US Law Shield and know of others that have the USCCA. 

 

TM

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

2 hours ago, Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103 said:

(The older the Grand Old Man becomes, the smarter he gets ... funny how that works!)

I have to agree. When I was in my early twenties, my Dad was an idiot. By the time I was in my thirties, he'd grown SO much smarter.

[Utah Bob #35998]

On 2/9/2026 at 3:37 PM, Stump Water said:

I know Ayoob started the wagon rolling and everyone has jumped on, but...

 

Has there EVER been a circumstance where "handloads" used in self defense have had any bearing on the outcome of the aftermath?

 

 

Not that I ever heard in my 30 years as a cop.

[Utah Bob #35998]

20 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

And it might set fire to your entire house, too.

I should be so lucky!

[Sawhorse Kid]

On 2/9/2026 at 7:36 AM, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

I carried mine, a 5"barrel .45, in a cross draw or vertical ............ rig on and off ................................................................

 

I never felt under-gunned nor in any other way "inferiorly" equipped.

 

 

+1

 

 

On 2/9/2026 at 11:58 AM, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

A second gun is the fastest reload...and have carried more than one if I were going into a questionable place.

 

 

One of my instructors idea of a tactical reload was ..... a second gun.

[Stump Water]

8 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

That's the case that Mas Ayoob cites. A man named Daniel Bias gave his wife a mix of handloads that he'd made, to carry in her S&W 686. He was later accused of shooting her in the head. He claimed they were arguing and he was trying to get the gun away from her. 

The question came from forensics not being able to test how far the gun was from her because of the handloads. 

After eight and a half YEARS, and FOUR trials, he was eventually convicted of "reckless Manslaughter", and got 6 years.

More on that here:  https://www.mcall.com/1997/09/27/phillipsburg-man-convicted-in-wifes-gunshot-slaying-gets-state-jail-term-daniel-bias-jr-tried-to-convince-a-jury-his-27-year-old-wife-shot-herself-in-the-head-as-he-tried-to-grab-the-gun/

Ayoob's arguments are thus: 

(1) Forensic Disadvantages: Hand loads can complicate forensic analysis (e.g., gunshot residue testing) and may prevent the replication of ammunition for scientific testing, hindering a defense.

(2) Prosecution Argument: Opposing counsel might argue that a defendant who uses custom ammunition is intentionally manufacturing evidence or seeking higher lethality.

(3) Expert Advice: Ayoob advises that for concealed carry and self-defense, reliable, factory-manufactured ammunition should be used to avoid creating "ammunition-related" issues for a jury.

 

I didn't read the linked article because paywall.

 

I've been thinking about this today as I worked on the firewood pile.

 

Red herring.

 

One case.   From which Ayoob cherry-picked the message he wanted to make. 

 

Not that he's been sponsored or anything like that.

 

IME, factory ammo has been more unreliable than what I load.

 

 

 

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

17 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

One case.   From which Ayoob cherry-picked the message he wanted to make. 

Not that he's been sponsored or anything like that.

Pretty much what I've always said about it. Ayoob has a LOT of institutional knowledge, but I've always thought that he's a bit full of himself. And Ayoob IS a paid "Professional Expert Witness". 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

2 hours ago, Sawhorse Kid said:

 

+1

 

 

 

One of my instructors idea of a tactical reload was ..... a second gun.

Can't beat it if you practice and can carry the load.