What's the call?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Equipment:

Rifle -- 10, on table at leftmost of three positions (Position 1)

Pistols -- 5+5, holstered

Shotgun -- 4+, on table at rightmost of three positions (Position 3)

 

Targets:

Rifle at Position 1: 4 targets at rifle distance, a 5th target at about twice rifle distance

Pistol at Position 2: 4 targets at pistol distance, a 5th target at rifle distance

Shotgun -- 4 KDs at shotgun distance

 

Instructions:

At the buzzer --

With rifle, triple tap the first three targets, then with 10th round shoot EITHER the 4th target at rifle distance OR the 5th more distant target; a hit on the more distant target earns a 5 second bonus; a miss on either the 4th or 5th target is a MISS. THEN ...

With pistols, similar to rifle instructions, triple tap the first three targets, then with 10th round shoot EITHER the 4th target at pistol distance OR the 5th more distant target; a hit on the more distant target earns a 5 second bonus; a miss on either the 4th or 5th target is a MISS. THEN ...

With shotgun, knock 'em down, any order.

Earning BOTH bonuses is allowed.

 

Black powder Shooter starts his smoky string at Position 1 and correctly shoots his rifle and earns a 5 second bonus, and having raised a huge cloud of smoke, he moves to Position 2.  He shoots his first pistol correctly (1-1-1-2-2), holsters it, and then with his second pistol shoots 2-3-3 and then the more distant target with his NINTH round (having only double tapped the third target; he holsters his revolver with the hammer down on the spent case.  He moves to Position 3 and knocks 'em down, and then gathers his long guns and proceeds to the unloading table where he discovers a live round in his second pistol.  (By the way, the TO thought only four rounds were shot with the second pistol, but when he asked the counters about it, none of them noticed it so the TO assumed he was mistaken when, in fact, all three counters just missed it.)

 

What's the call?  A miss?  A procedural?  A miss and a procedural?  And does the shooter get 1 bonus or 2?

 

ND

 

Edited February 1 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A P when the 9th revolver round did not get shot on the last of the triple-tap targets, and a miss for not firing the 10th round.  I'll say no bonus earned for the revolver set, as the bonus could only be earned by firing the tenth round (and that shot hitting the distant revolver target).  

 

So, P and a miss (for round not fired).  And only the bonus for the rifle set can be awarded.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited February 1 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Flying W Ramrod]

P + M

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

OK, I need to write the instructions EXACTLY because someone thinks it makes a difference.  Here is what it says, exactly, next to the illustration seen below.  If this means something other than what I wrote above, what does it mean, exactly -- in other words, what is the difference?

Also, does the following statement on p.21 of SHB ver. 28 have anything to do with this situation and, if so, how and why? "Double Jeopardy applies -- a miss cannot cause a procedural.  To help understand this concept, please reference the Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 of this handbook."

 

ATB

POS 1: Rifle   1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3-3-4 or 5*

                        *Shooter may engage either T-4 OR T-5 alt. target. (T-5 is worth a 5-second reduction in time.  Either T4 or T-5 target must be engaged.  A miss on T-4 or T-5 target is a miss.  

POS 2: Pistols Same as rifle but using Alt. Pistol target.

POS 3: Shotgun  Any Order

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

Just 2 misses no P. 9th round missed the 4th target. One miss for unfired round.

[Griff]

A "P" for hitting the #5 target out of order and a 5 second penalty for not firing 10 pistol rounds.  And yes, only getting the rifle Bonus.

 

The intent of the shooter is impossible to discern.  So the only call to be made is what happens.  Ergo, whether the shooter missed target 3 with the 9th shot or intended on hitting target 5 is immaterial.  The fact remains that he hit target 5 with that 9th shot, clearly out of sequence, ergo, the "P".  Since target 5 was a pistol target it still counts as a hit, but by not firing a tenth round, the shooter earns a 5 second penalty for not firing 10 pistol rounds.  Which is the same as a miss.  As for a bonus on the 5th target, I wouldn't award it as it was hit out of sequence.  Whether stated or not, it was implied thru the instructions that to earn the bonus you must have fired all 9 rounds on targets 1-3.

Edited February 1 by Griff

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The instructions as printed in the stage instruction sheet seem to me to say exactly what you wrote in the OP.   No difference in the target order, the round counts, or the requirement needed to be awarded a bonus.

 

"A miss cannot cause a procedural"  - this "shorthand" rule of thumb is not applicable here.  The P was earned by the 9th shot being placed on a target other than the one specified (target #3).   When the shot #9 was fired at target #5, that was the P.   The "round not fired counts as a miss" is due to the 10th round found in the revolver at the unloading table.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

By the way, the TO thought only four rounds were shot with the second pistol, but when he asked the counters about it, none of them noticed it so the TO assumed he was mistaken when, in fact, all three counters just missed it.

 

The TO is responsible for supervising the number of rounds fired.   A really good TO could have assisted the shooter by saying "One more!".   At which point the shooter would probably have the "light go on" that a P had just been earned.  But he could have saved the "round not fired going to count as a miss" penalty by putting another round on any revolver target.

 

good luck, GJ

[Rye Miles #13621]

What about the holstered pistol with a live round in it? Minor safety ? 

[Blind Squirrel]

4 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

What about the holstered pistol with a live round in it? Minor safety ? 

Page 23 SHB:

 

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include:

- Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in 
which it was loaded. 
- Leaving an empty in the chamber of a long gun.  
- Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range.

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

7 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

What about the holstered pistol with a live round in it? Minor safety ? 

There are now only two Minor Safety penalties.  

A round not under the hammer or in a cocked revolver leaving the shooters hand is neither of these. 

 

From SHB PG 23   Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.

 

So the round in the revolver, making the assumption, the revolver was not cacked again is just a miss.  

 

Back to the OP. 

P for 9th round not hitting the correct target, Miss for the unfired round.  

And TO's are human, and if not 100% sure the shooter had only fired 9 and tellng them one more it they had shot 10 would be grounds for a reshoot as impropper coaching.  Not saying anything is not improper coaching, and not grounds for a reshoot.  Responsibility belongs to the shooter. 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

There of  course are differences between a timer holder and a Timer Operator.  Laid out one difference above.   😆  GJ

[Rye Miles #13621]

GOT IT!

 

Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.

Edited February 1 by Rye Miles #13621

[Chicken George*]

So it appears Joe has the correct answer (everyone agrees) so help me understand this because I don't see it that way. 

19 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

the TO thought only four rounds were shot with the second pistol, but when he asked the counters about it, none of them noticed it

The TO "thought", didn't know that he shot it wrong, and none of the spotters knew there was anything wrong. So the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter. Yes, there was one in the gun, so he should get a miss, but why are we assigning it the way that gives them a miss, a P, and no bonus if none of the people that are in charge of calling it knew what actually happened? Why can't we say that he didn't shoot the ninth shot and shot the bonus with his tenth shot? The spotters and TO didn't know what happened, maybe he tried to engage the ninth but it didn't go off (equipment failer, bad ammo or shooter error) and he moved on to the next shot. If the same thing happened with the rifle, if it doesn't go off (for the same reasons) it gets jacked out, and you can move onto the next target (you don't have to reload). If you don't reload, you get a miss for the shot you didn't take and not a p with rifle, so shouldn't it be the same with the pistol? 

Edited February 1 by Chicken George*

[Hawkeye Kid]

16 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The instructions as printed in the stage instruction sheet seem to me to say exactly what you wrote in the OP.   No difference in the target order, the round counts, or the requirement needed to be awarded a bonus.

 

"A miss cannot cause a procedural"  - this "shorthand" rule of thumb is not applicable here.  The P was earned by the 9th shot being placed on a target other than the one specified (target #3).   When the shot #9 was fired at target #5, that was the P.   The "round not fired counts as a miss" is due to the 10th round found in the revolver at the unloading table.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Agree on the above.  Disagree on the bonus for the pistol.  Shooter took the challenge to engage the distance target for the 5 second bonus.  Shooter is already penalized for shooting the target with the incorrect round.  Shooter should not be penalized twice for hitting the bonus target.

So, One P, One miss for round not fired, two bonuses for hitting the distance rifle and pistol targets.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Shooter shoots rifle per instructions.

No misses

No procedurals

Strikes BONUS target

No unfired rounds

 

Shooter shoots pistol as follows.

No misses

Earns procedural when pistol targets are NOT triple tapped

Strikes BONUS target

One unfired round in pistol NOT under hammer.

 

Shoots shotgun per instructions.

 

My call:

Bonus for RIFLE.

Procedural for pistol.

Bonus for PISTOL.

Unfired round penalty for pistol.

 

In my opinion:

"A hit on the more distant target earns a 5 second bonus". 

 

The shooter hit the bonus target with the pistol.  So that's a bonus.

 

He hit it out of order; thats a procedural.

 

These are two separate scoring components - as written; the procedural does not change the valuation of the bonus.

 

The stage instructions "could" have been written that

"If the bonus target is struck with any round other than the 10th; that shot WILL be scored as a hit, but the 5 second bonus will not be awarded AND a procedural penalty will be earned for hitting targets out of order."

 

But since it wasn't written that way...

1 P

1 miss/ unfired round

2 bonuses 

 

Next shooter.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

6 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

GOT IT!

 

Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.

Unless the hammer is cocked, there is an unfired round in the cylinder and it is released then it's an MDQ, pg. 24 SHB

 

Returning a revolver to leather with the hammer not fully down on a spent round or empty chamber (cocked) with unfired round(s) remaining (leaving the shooter’s hand).

 

Randy

 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

All good comments, thanks all.

 

I was the TO.  I tried to tell the shooter that I thought he had only shot 9 with his pistols but he was already on his way to the shotgun (POS 3) and ignored or didn't hear me.  I asked the counters about it: two didn't notice at all, one wasn't sure.  I was not going to call the miss or P at all until the shooter at the unloading table discovered the unfired round and called the penalty (or penalties) on himself.  We both thought it should be scored a miss and a P and no pistol bonus but I wasn't sure.  The Match Director by chance wandered onto our stage while we were conferring, told us his final ruling (here left unsaid), and that's what we used, right or wrong.  I just wanted to know how to call this situation with more confidence in the unlikely event it ever comes up again.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Unless the hammer is cocked, there is an unfired round in the cylinder and it is released then it's an MDQ, pg. 24 SHB

 

Returning a revolver to leather with the hammer not fully down on a spent round or empty chamber (cocked) with unfired round(s) remaining (leaving the shooter’s hand).

 

Randy

 

 

His hammer was "fully down on a spent round."  He never cocked the gun for the 5th round, thinking he had already fired 5.  No MDQ.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I was not going to call the miss or P at all until the shooter at the unloading table discovered the unfired round and called the penalty (or penalties) on himself.

I like that.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Today we had a shooter on that same stage shoot his first 5 revolvers rounds corretly, then miss counted his second 5 and only shot 3 before going to the bonus target which he hit then reholstered after only firing 4 rounds and moved and shoot the shotgun.  He got a P for shooting the revolver targets out of order, a miss for the unfired round but he got the bonus for hitting tha target.

[Yippy Yiyo Kiyay]

I have a headache!

[Griff]

For those of you that disagree with the "P", a miss & no pistol bonus, look at the responses that PWB marded as "likes".

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

For those of you that disagree with the "P", a miss & no pistol bonus, look at the responses that PWB marded as "likes".

With all due respect; PWB's personal opinions are NOT official SASS statements and hold no weight beyond expressing his opinion.

 

The SASS Miss Flow chart on the other hand is not opinion and provides a clear scoring explanation.

Simply following the Miss Flow chart answers all the questions.

 

That is, unless someone can find a passage in the SHB that says that target scoring varies by round (and you can't).

Or, if the stage writer specifically placed conditions into the instructions that varied the target scoring by round (and he didn't).

 

Absent those variables to standard scoring AND in the presence of the specific instruction that "a hit on the more distant target earns a five second bonus"; a statement that appears per the OP without caveat or any round number correlation.

 

No matter how many likes anyone places upon how many posts.

 

The pistol bonus must be awarded.

Edited February 3 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Or, if the stage writer specifically placed conditions into the instructions that varied the target scoring by round (and he didn't).

From the OP's post:

Quote

With pistols, similar to rifle instructions, triple tap the first three targets, then with 10th round shoot EITHER the 4th target at pistol distance OR the 5th more distant target; a hit on the more distant target earns a 5 second bonus; a miss on either the 4th or 5th target is a MISS.

I read that to mean in order to earn the bonus, the 5th target must be hit with the 10th round.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

43 minutes ago, Griff said:

From the OP's post:

I read that to mean in order to earn the bonus, the 5th target must be hit with the 10th round.

 

I read that as TWO instructions.

Firstly a sequence instruction.

Which the shooter did NOT follow - earning him a Procedural penalty.

 

Then a scoring instruction.

Which the shooter did follow -

earning him a 5 second bonus.

 

If we are to combine the sequence instruction with the shooting instructions;

meaning the last target MUST be hit with the 10th round to be scored as a "hit".

 

Then how would you score the stage "If" the shooter had placed their 9th round on the 4th target; the one at "pistol distance"?

 

Would that "hit" be scored in a different manner - ignored, thrown out - because it was hit with the 9th round - not the 10th?

 

The stage writer established the sequence.

The stage writer assigned a bonus to a given target.

Two separate instructions.

 

The shooter violated the sequence.

That's a "P".

The shooter hit an appropriate type target from an appropriate type firearm. 

That's a hit.

And in this case - that hit "on the distant target" earns the bonus.

 

An easy fix for NEXT time is either:

"If struck; the distant target will be scored as a hit; but it will only count as a bonus IF struck with your 10th round"

 

or option 2 (imo; this is better - takes out the procedural possibility for a miss on the closer plates)

 

"The 4th target (either pistol distance or more distant) does NOT exist as an firearm appropriate type target until AFTER the 9th round is discharged.

Any strikes upon the 4th plate (pistol distance or more distant) at any other point in the shooting string will be scored as misses.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Or to make the argument really simple...

 

Why would you want to penalize the shooter twice for a single error?

 

He is receiving a 15 second penalty for his infraction.

 

10 seconds for shooting targets out of order.   We all agree on this one.

 

And then by failing to be awarded the bonus for a target he hit - whether you call it bonus or penalty; his score is off by 5 seconds to everyone else who accomplished the same feat.

 

I cannot find a justification for it.

Edited February 3 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Griff]

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

I read that as TWO instructions.

Firstly a sequence instruction.

Which the shooter did NOT follow - earning him a Procedural penalty.

Agreed.

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Then a scoring instruction.

Which the shooter did follow -

earning him a 5 second bonus.

Here we disagree.   It seems like a simple matter of Boolean Logic.  "If, then, else."  If you triple tap targets 1-3, then choose between target 4 and 5, else you earn associated penalties.  By not including the phrase, "with the 10th shot" into the count of "associated penalties", you're penalizing every other shooter than shot it in accordance with the instruction.

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If we are to combine the sequence instruction with the shooting instructions;

meaning the last target MUST be hit with the 10th round to be scored as a "hit".

Then how would you score the stage "If" the shooter had placed their 9th round on the 4th target; the one at "pistol distance"?

I would be scored as a "P", for shooting it out of sequence, and would receive the 5 second penalty for "Shot Not Fired."

 

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The shooter violated the sequence.

That's a "P".

The shooter hit an appropriate type target from an appropriate type firearm. 

That's a hit.

And in this case - that hit "on the distant target" earns the bonus.

Agreed.  

 

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Or to make the argument really simple...

Why would you want to penalize the shooter twice for a single error?

He is receiving a 15 second penalty for his infraction.

10 seconds for shooting targets out of order.   We all agree on this one.

 

And then by failing to be awarded the bonus for a target he hit - whether you call it bonus or penalty; his score is off by 5 seconds to everyone else who accomplished the same feat.

 

I cannot find a justification for it.

But by rewarding that shooter, you're effectively penalizing everyone who accomplished the feat by correctly following the stage instructions.  

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Just so folks can see the actual targets on that stage here you go.  By the Way I hit both alternate targets and thus gained the bonus reduction time for both. 

Rifle Targets

Pistol Targets

Shotgun Targets

[Diamond Jake]

I'll join the party.

 

P because the third pistol target wasn't triple tapped.  Miss because live round left in revolver.

 

No bonus if the stage instruction actually did say "...then with tenth round..." as the OP is quoted, though I didn't go back to see if he was paraphrasing.

 

I think the only way to avoid the miss and get the bonus was to double-tap the far target after you realize you got he P with your 9th round.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

20 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

I'll join the party.

 

P because the third pistol target wasn't triple tapped.  Miss because live round left in revolver.

 

No bonus if the stage instruction actually did say "...then with tenth round..." as the OP is quoted, though I didn't go back to see if he was paraphrasing.

 

I think the only way to avoid the miss and get the bonus was to double-tap the far target after you realize you got he P with your 9th round.

Again so everyone can see how it was actually written here you go, read it yourself - (rifle in hands was changed to staged on the table and arms folded)

[Griff]

↑↑↑ That certainly changes things.  Different than stated in OP.  So... award bonus.  Thanks Scout.

[Eyesa Horg]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

↑↑↑ That certainly changes things.  Different than stated in OP.  So... award bonus.  Thanks Scout.

How is it different? Just curious as I may have missed something in the comparison. 

[Griff]

26 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

How is it different? Just curious as I may have missed something in the comparison. 

In the OP it was state "with the 10th round", and in the actual stage instructions, I don't see any requirement to hit the bonus with the 10th round specifically.  Simply implied as the shooter should have fired 9 rounds at targets 1-3... but as we all know, and probably experienced, what happens after the beep is often far from what we intend!

[Eyesa Horg]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

In the OP it was state "with the 10th round", and in the actual stage instructions, I don't see any requirement to hit the bonus with the 10th round specifically.  Simply implied as the shooter should have fired 9 rounds at targets 1-3... but as we all know, and probably experienced, what happens after the beep is often far from what we intend!

Ok 

I read the actual instructions as a triple tap on 1, a triple tap on 2 and then a triple tap on 3, leaving the 10th round for target 4 or 5.

It doesn't say in any order so I presumed the order to be as written. 111-222-333- 4 or 5. With 5 being the bonus target.