Dapper Dave Posted January 25 Posted January 25 I started a topic on 45 Colt setups in the regular forum, but I realized I was going too cheap with a Rossi 1892 clone, plus I was reminded that black powder might not be fun to clean out of a '92, but easier with a '73. Ok, I have never disassembled my Rossi/Heritage 92 in .357 Mag and it seems to keep on trucking so far, but always smokeless powders and I try to clean what I can - I've never once taken down such a beast and was assured by many that it really isn't necessary for a casual use rifle. I'm probably wrong about that, as usual. BUT... I have seen the Holy Black can produce some serious fouling and gummy residue in my pistols. Still like it, and cleaning ain't hard with the pistols and shotgun, but never tried it with a rifle. OK, having said all THAT, we should get a hefty refund this year, and my wife, (I love that woman!), said I should get a lever gun I can use black powder in because I am going to A), get my days off back so I can compete again, and B), I wanna shoot black powder, too. Maybe seriously experiment with Scarlett's APP, too. So, I looked at my two favorite places to order from and found this in stock. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020497346?pid=190542 This is the Cimmaron 1873 Sporting Rifle with 24 inch octagon barrel, 13 round magazine. It's under $1500, which is kind of a ceiling. My other goofy thing is I don't HAVE a lot of guns so I try to get guns that I can use here and elsewhere. I am leaning towards this caliber because I already have a nice stash of brass, thanks to a pard at my club, and have the dies and molds for it as well. While 44-40 is classic...I don't wanna spend even more for a new reloading stash...YET. Don't tell my wife. So, (are you still with me?), this is what's available right now, in the caliber I like, and at a price point I can live with, (sort of), so now come the questions; 1. Good for SASS? I don't think it's too long, and no, right now I don't plan on slicking it up and short stroking it, I will never win any belt buckles or such, just having a ton of fun. 2. What about hunting? The '73 wasn't made in 45 Colt in the cowboy era, IIRC, but the '73 action should be up to standard pressure, (14K or less), loads, I think, no "Ruger Only" stuff, and Hornaday makes some nice jacketed bullets, even though a 200gr SWC should also do a good job. 3. How far out have you used your lever action 45 Colts? I hear it can have a rainbow trajectory, and I am only familiar with it in my Uberti New Model Army clone with the Howell conversion cylinder, and my son with his Taurus Judge. 4. Am I overthinking the dogsnot out of this and just go buy a new rifle? 5. Better suggestions? I am all ears... 2 Quote
Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) Annealing the brass makes a big difference in reducing blow by but requires the purchase of the annealing equipment or fabrication of one. I never have done this. I use a fiber wad, grease cookie and a hard card wad with great success using coated bullets. Also, many in this sport gravitate to lighter weight bullets. Black powder will burn more efficiently, ie: cleaner with a heavier bullet. 250gr instead of 200gr. The faster burn rated powder will also burn cleaner. 3F cleaner than 2F. 4F cleaner than 3F. The faster rate powder also requires less powder to achieve desired velocity. I have effectively used 45Colt at 200 yards. Just my thoughts after the first cup of jo. Chas B Edited January 25 by Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 2 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) The fact is, a straight wall case like .45 is a lousy BP cartridge for a rifle, and IMO not that great for smokeless either. You can make it work, but it’s just that - a lot of work. Annealing is the most effective, but I’d rather watch paint dry. I assume you don’t already load .45 Colt for your cowboy guns? If so, spend your $$ on a rifle chambered for .44-40. You’ll be glad you did. .38-40 is a great cartridge too, but brass is harder to come by than .44-40. I sold my .45 cal Rossi and replaced it with an 1860 Henry and then added a ‘73 carbine, both in .44-40. Never looked back. The action(s) are always clean after a match. Adding on, I shoot smokeless and real BP. For me, bottle neck cartridges are the way to go, especially for BP. YMMV BTW, I shot a lot of BP thru my .45 Rossi and yes, it was messy. However, I used the Nate Kiowa Jones method for cleanup, so there was never a need to take it down. It’s really quite easy, but is a topic for another thread. I only mention it because you might want to try BP in yours to see if you like the experience before plunking down $$ for dedicated BP rifle. Edited January 25 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783 3 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) Go with .44-40, you’ll be much happier! I tried BP in my .45’s years ago, the fouling was bad and the action got stiff after two stages! I went to .44-40 and the problem was solved. Edited January 25 by Rye Miles #13621 2 Quote
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted January 25 Posted January 25 Posted this in your other thread so I will post it here also. If you are buying the rifle to shoot BP or APP then I suggest you consider either 38-40 or 44-40. I have been shooting 38-40 most of the time since 2004 when I started shooting Classic Cowboy. It works well for smokless and smokie. Quote
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) Well not really answering your questions but can help a little. 1) 24” is longer than I like on a rifle, but may fit you well. I have a couple in that size but gravitate towards one I had cut to 20” for CAS. Longer barrels tend to droop for me, while in itself not a big deal the balance seems to change as I shoot. 2) & 3) I haven’t hunted with mine, but had an experience with a 45 I sold to a friend. Former employee wanted to do the frontier hunter thing, so talked me out of a Navy Arms I had acquired. I had smoothed it up but no short stroke. Included 30 250 gr. LRN, he shot 20 to get used to the gun and off he went. Got his 4x4 elk first day, at about 80 yards, one shot to the neck right behind the head. Came back to me and said that he was going to sell it but if I wanted it back he would knock off $100 from what he had paid me originally. Did that, decided to SS it and now it’s in the safe. Don’t know how far he could have gone but under a hundred in aspen grove worked fine. 4) My advice is get whatever you like, that feels good to you, though if I did things over I would get a 44-40 for several of the reasons above. Regards Gateway Kid BTW none of the 73’s (or 92’s) are getting any cheaper so the longer you wait the more you’ll likely pay. Edited January 25 by Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Added BTW 1 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 25 Posted January 25 It Depends (no, not the ones in plastic packaging) ALL my rifles are .45s. I shoot APP exclusively. Whether APP or BP, Straight Wall Pistol caliber cases don't play well with BP or APP and are only tolerable with smokeless. Straight Wall pistol caliber cartridges DO NOT expand to seal the chamber in OEM stock form. The only way to shoot .45 Colt (no such thing as "long" Colt), clean is to anneal the cases. All you need is a !/2 inch socket (1/4 drive), a short extension, cordless drill motor and a small propane torch. It is mind numbing boring but annealed cases shoot as clean as any "dash" calibers. If you don't want the hassle of annealing, plan on opting for a 44-40 or 38-40 rifle. Barrel length of over 20 inches is of no real advantage for anything. I personally prefer the lightest bullets for caliber I can reliably find and since my propellant is APP, I don't care about lube. Doesn't matter. A point to remember, you're probably only going to buy a modicum of brass once. it amortizes at the first firing and is "free" after that. A "stash" of .45 Colt cases is only good if you have a way to use them that doesn't drive you knutz. If you don't anneal, 45 Colt is going to drive you knutz. Your Mileage May Vary 2 Quote
Stump Water Posted January 25 Posted January 25 2 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: The fact is, a straight wall case like .45 is a lousy BP cartridge for a rifle, and IMO not that great for smokeless either. You can make it work, but it’s just that - a lot of work. My opinion also. However, on the occasions I venture to the dark side 45C is what I shoot because that's what I have (I also have .38s, but I'm not corrupting those guns). But, and it's a BIG but, I shoot Triple-7 which I call "smokeless powder that smokes". Meaning you don't get the fouling. IME it's not much worse than shooting smokeless with a 160 gr. bullet. When we started CAS we went with 45C and had no intention of ever shooting black. Things change. Were I in your position I would go with 44-40 or 38-40, as others have said. Finally, whatever you decide, a '73 is going to be a LOT more fun when slicked up. I understand a rifle AND an action job may not fit in the budget right now, but I would budget it down the road. 1 Quote
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) I have a Uberti 24" octagonal in .44-40 that my wife gave me in 1982. (It cost her $139.00 and I still have the receipt). I shot it for years and decided to get a carbine. Found one Uberti '73 carbine and an EMF Hartford .92 rifle, both in .45 Colt. I still have the 92 simply because I can't find one in .44-40 with a blue receiver instead of CCH. It's not bad with smokeless and I do shoot it once in awhile...and the '73 is faster. The EMF '73 left after maybe six months because it just wasn't worth all the cleaning and fussing it took to keep it running right with GOEX black powder...and I needed a .45 carbine like a pig needs a side saddle. Your mileage may vary. Edited January 26 by Forty Rod SASS 3935 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 25 Author Posted January 25 I'm sensing a trend here...I'm not completely sure, but it seems like a consensus or sorts, a warning of a type... 44-40, you nimrod! Like this? Cimarron Firearms 1873 Short Lever Action Rifle 44-40 WCF 20 Blued A little cheaper, a little shorter, still Cimmaron...who makes Cimmaron, Uberti? So, mold and dies plus brass, too. What bullet do we recommend for 44-40 BP rounds? 2 Quote
Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 I run 3F for stages 4F for long range 1 Quote
Nickle Posted January 25 Posted January 25 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said: I'm sensing a trend here...I'm not completely sure, but it seems like a consensus or sorts, a warning of a type... 44-40, you nimrod! Like this? Cimarron Firearms 1873 Short Lever Action Rifle 44-40 WCF 20 Blued A little cheaper, a little shorter, still Cimmaron...who makes Cimmaron, Uberti? So, mold and dies plus brass, too. What bullet do we recommend for 44-40 BP rounds? Like Coffinmaker said. 45 works. Only thing I would add is when I anneal i heat them orange which I'm sure someone with say is to much and then I drop them into ice water which makes the cases even more soft. Cases last forever and I don't get fouling blow by . For hunting. What you hunting? I've shot junk like Jack rabbits. My gun has big sure hit front site . Not very good sights for any distance. For hunting big game I wouldn't mess with pistol calibers. About barrel length. Mine is heavy barrel 2 0" There is a guy at our club called South West Trapper. He is amazing with a rifle. He shoots a lightweight 19 or 20" regular carbine. It's a 45 to. Edited January 25 by Nickle 1 Quote
Stump Water Posted January 25 Posted January 25 26 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said: I'm sensing a trend here...I'm not completely sure, but it seems like a consensus or sorts, a warning of a type... 44-40, you nimrod! Like this? Cimarron Firearms 1873 Short Lever Action Rifle 44-40 WCF 20 Blued A little cheaper, a little shorter, still Cimmaron...who makes Cimmaron, Uberti? So, mold and dies plus brass, too. What bullet do we recommend for 44-40 BP rounds? Perfecto-mundo! When the budget allows get the forearm engraved or checkered so you get a positive grip on it when it's wet... wait, you're in Arizona... when it's sweaty. Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 25 Author Posted January 25 Rain around here comes in two flavors, drizzle and gully washer. Both are rare. I put together a test order from MidwayUSA, and that rifle with Lee steel dies, 200gr Lee .429 RNFP mold, Lee sizer, (I like Lee, neener), and 100 Starline brass, comes out to $1,636.75 with shipping and tax. $20 at the gunshop to receive. Less if I take in homemade cookies. So, armed with this, I went to my loving wife and laid it out, cost/benefit analysis, and you know what she said? "OK, sounds good." I love that woman. 5 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 37 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said: I'm sensing a trend here...I'm not completely sure, but it seems like a consensus or sorts, a warning of a type... 44-40, you nimrod! Like this? Cimarron Firearms 1873 Short Lever Action Rifle 44-40 WCF 20 Blued A little cheaper, a little shorter, still Cimmaron...who makes Cimmaron, Uberti? So, mold and dies plus brass, too. What bullet do we recommend for 44-40 BP rounds? 200 gr. Are you casting your own? What “BP” do you plan to use? Real BP - Goex et al, or one of the subs - APP, 777 et al? Makes a huge difference in your bullet choice. 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 25 Author Posted January 25 15 minutes ago, Nickle said: Like Coffinmaker said. 45 works. Only thing I would add is when I anneal i heat them orange which I'm sure someone with say is to much and then I drop them into ice water which makes the cases even more soft. Cases last forever and I don't get fouling blow by . For hunting. What you hunting? I've shot junk like Jack rabbits. My gun has big sure hit front site . Not very good sights for any distance. For hunting big game I wouldn't mess with pistol calibers. About barrel length. Mine is heavy barrel 2 0" There is a guy at our club called South West Trapper. He is amazing with a rifle. He shoots a lightweight 19 or 20" regular carbine. It's a 45 to. Well, down here we have javalina and coyote, our "big" game tends to be scrawny and puny. The desert doesn't feed 'em much. I am not necessarily going to hunt with it, I like the option. I don't anneal, I don't even know how. Oddly enough, my gunsmith buddy just gave me two torches, one a Coleman propane torch I use to heat up the inside of my big fat 204 gr 38-200 NOE mold. 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 25 Author Posted January 25 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: 200 gr. Are you casting your own? What “BP” do you plan to use? Real BP - Goex et al, or one of the subs - APP, 777 et al? Makes a huge difference in your bullet choice. Real BP. I have some of that. I actually have the wherewithal to make my own BP as well, I just don't do it very much, PITA. But I have 3F Olde Eynsford again, and a bottle of Scarett's APP as well, unopened, got them from Kid Rich, thank you again, kind sir! And yes, I cast my own, more fun and way cheaper, have lots of lead. Edited January 25 by Dapper Dave 2 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 25 Posted January 25 18 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said: Real BP. I have some of that. I actually have the wherewithal to make my own BP as well, I just don't do it very much, PITA. But I have 3F Olde Eynsford again, and a bottle of Scarett's APP as well, unopened, got them from Kid Rich, thank you again, kind sir! And yes, I cast my own, more fun and way cheaper, have lots of lead. For real BP you need to cast a Big Lube bullet. They have larger and deeper grooves to hold BP compatible lube. Essential, or you’re gonna have a less than harmonious outcome. A smokeless bullet mold will do fine for the subs, but not for Goex etc. BP or subs provide a smokey experience, but only BP provides the flame, which to me is the whole point. I don’t recommend making your own BP under any circumstances, but especially not if you want consistency at a match. YMMV Quote
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Dave, I don't know where in Arizona you live, but if you show up in the Prescott / Prescott Valley area some Thursday morning about 6:30 am I'll be happy to introduce you to a crazy bunch of cowboy folks at Zeke's Eatin' Place, and even buy your breakfast. Let me know when you're coming. 4 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 Now that I just might have to take you up on some day, sir! I am all the way down in Casa Grande right now. Abilene Slim, my gunsmith buddy showed me how to make BP, it ain't hard. The only thing I lack is the 20 ton press to puck it, so mine is about 60% the strength of regular BP. Interestingly enough, toilet paper makes GREAT charcoal. I've even loaded 45 Colt cartridges with home made powder. I thought Big Lube molds were no longer around? I'd love to have one, but instead I use lubricated wads and such, seems to work pretty good so far. I also don't do it too much. This is the one I use, hard lubed with SPG. I'm just the new kid on the block, I know. Always up for better tips and tricks. 3 Quote
Buckshot Bear Posted January 26 Posted January 26 When I'm the TO and the shooter has a '66 or '73 chambered in.45 LC and loaded with smokeless, I always see gas coming out of the top. 2 Quote
Buckshot Bear Posted January 26 Posted January 26 8 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said: Abilene Slim, my gunsmith buddy showed me how to make BP, it ain't hard. The only thing I lack is the 20 ton press to puck it, so mine is about 60% the strength of regular BP. Interestingly enough, toilet paper makes GREAT charcoal. I've even loaded 45 Colt cartridges with home made powder. Yep it's easy to make.....the hardest parts are grating it consistently for size and make quality BP. I don't think I've ever really seen homemade BP up to the quality of WANO which is the most common BP down here. 1 Quote
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Just get a .38 WCF - .3840 caliber rifle, either a 1866 or 1873 , as for cases I buy either .44-40 or 38-40 brand new Star-line both need to be run through the sizing die when they are new, anyway. this year i took the sideplates of my 66 for the first time in about 5 year Could be longer, clean put a couple dabs of lube on the links. put it back together... I use 34gr. of 3f Goex this is a compressed load (3/16) with a soft cast 180gr. RNFP bullet, In Star-line brass with a firm crip with a Lee factory Crimp die. For 16 or more years my main Rifle was a 66 in .45 Colt using 250 - 270 gr RNFP bullets over 37.3 gr. of Goez 3 F... took the plates of every 3-5 years for cleaning... Jabez Cowboy 1 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 26 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said: When I'm the TO and the shooter has a '66 or '73 chambered in.45 LC and loaded with smokeless, I always see gas coming out of the top. That’s cuz the shooter is almost always using a lightweight bullet and bottom of the range powder charge. When I shot .45 Colt I used a heavy bullet - 225 gr and mid range powder charge. With that, I didn’t get the gas coming out the top as the load sealed the chamber better. 3 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 12 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said: Yep it's easy to make.....the hardest parts are grating it consistently for size and make quality BP. I don't think I've ever really seen homemade BP up to the quality of WANO which is the most common BP down here. Nope especially without the press to make the pucks. However, when there is no powder to be had...I can make some. 1 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 18 hours ago, Dapper Dave said: I'm sensing a trend here...I'm not completely sure, but it seems like a consensus or sorts, a warning of a type... 44-40, you nimrod! Like this? Cimarron Firearms 1873 Short Lever Action Rifle 44-40 WCF 20 Blued A little cheaper, a little shorter, still Cimmaron...who makes Cimmaron, Uberti? So, mold and dies plus brass, too. What bullet do we recommend for 44-40 BP rounds? Dave, I was looking at the link and it appears several barrel lengths are available, including a 16”. A column of 10 .44-40 cartridges measures 15 7/8”, meaning the 16” version won’t hold 10 rounds. The 20” version should be your minimum length. 2 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 Right. Just got back from HR Blockhead and Uncle Sam says I can haz it, but not for four weeks. 1 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted January 26 Posted January 26 15 hours ago, Dapper Dave said: Now that I just might have to take you up on some day, sir! I am all the way down in Casa Grande right now. Abilene Slim, my gunsmith buddy showed me how to make BP, it ain't hard. The only thing I lack is the 20 ton press to puck it, so mine is about 60% the strength of regular BP. Interestingly enough, toilet paper makes GREAT charcoal. I've even loaded 45 Colt cartridges with home made powder. I thought Big Lube molds were no longer around? I'd love to have one, but instead I use lubricated wads and such, seems to work pretty good so far. I also don't do it too much. This is the one I use, hard lubed with SPG. I'm just the new kid on the block, I know. Always up for better tips and tricks. As a general rule of thumb SWC profiles don't feed well in toggle link rifles. As for a 44-40 mould that will work with BP, this is what I currently load. Accurate Molds 43-205C. Diameter can be customized free of charge. I recommend you don't buy the mould until you have the rifle in hand and then slug the barrel. As for dies there is nothing wrong with a Lee 4 die set. I would add the Lee Factory Crimp die. If you decide to stick with 45 Colt then I would get the Accurate 45-260F. 1 Quote
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 16 hours ago, Dapper Dave said: Now that I just might have to take you up on some day, sir! I am all the way down in Casa Grande right now. Abilene Slim, my gunsmith buddy showed me how to make BP, it ain't hard. The only thing I lack is the 20 ton press to puck it, so mine is about 60% the strength of regular BP. Interestingly enough, toilet paper makes GREAT charcoal. I've even loaded 45 Colt cartridges with home made powder. I thought Big Lube molds were no longer around? I'd love to have one, but instead I use lubricated wads and such, seems to work pretty good so far. I also don't do it too much. This is the one I use, hard lubed with SPG. I'm just the new kid on the block, I know. Always up for better tips and tricks. As if no one else was EVER "a new kid on the block"! You'll outgrow it. Looking forward to meeting you (Isn't Casa Grande far enough down to be part of Mexico?) 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted January 26 Author Posted January 26 No, that's Tucson where I was hatched a few short eons ago. I had heard that bullet might not feed well, so I found a RNFP mold. I'll use that with smokeless powder until i can get that Accurate one - I like that one! Still gotta get the matching pistols...thinking 1875 Outlaws. Gotta have matching pistols, right? 1 Quote
Old Man Graybeard Posted January 26 Posted January 26 As far as barrel length...I myself prefer the 24 inch barrels. I just seem to shoot them better. I know most people prefer the 20 inch...just my preference. And someday I might find a 73 in 44-40 with a 30 inch barrel. I have a couple of 73's in 38 with 20 inch that my son and grandson shoot...but my 357 and 44-40 rifles that I prefer are 24 inch. I have shot APP in my 357 rifles using 38 special cases...and there is a lot more cleanup needed than the 44-40...that only needs the barrel cleaned 1 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 26 Posted January 26 14 minutes ago, Old Man Graybeard said: As far as barrel length...I myself prefer the 24 inch barrels. I just seem to shoot them better. I know most people prefer the 20 inch...just my preference. And someday I might find a 73 in 44-40 with a 30 inch barrel. I have a couple of 73's in 38 with 20 inch that my son and grandson shoot...but my 357 and 44-40 rifles that I prefer are 24 inch. I have shot APP in my 357 rifles using 38 special cases...and there is a lot more cleanup needed than the 44-40...that only needs the barrel cleaned Me too. I have an 1860 Henry with a 24” barrel and a 20” ‘73 carbine, both in .44-40 cal. I prefer the length of the Henry over the carbine. Quote
Stump Water Posted January 26 Posted January 26 2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: As for dies there is nothing wrong with a Lee 4 die set. I would add the Lee Factory Crimp die. I'll echo that. I have plenty of Lee dies. Until CAS we loaded everything on a Lee single stage press - from 9mm to .300 Win Mag. Now the 650s load 9mm & 38 Spl, 45C & 45 ACP. Everything else is still loaded on the Lee SS. 2 Quote
DeaconKC Posted January 26 Posted January 26 I discovered I do like a longer barrel on my long guns. If you get the 24" and don't like it I will swap a 20" one with you. 1 1 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted January 27 Posted January 27 For longer ranges I find a longer barrel to be easier to keep on target. The heavier weight seems to help. Downside is they are not fun to carry long distances. 2 Quote
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