Five Shot Revolvers

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

To quote the Handbook...
 

"Five-shot revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap."

I once asked a simple question about this; does this mean that 5 shot revolvers without a safety position are loaded with 4 and the 5th round is loaded on the clock.   The reply came that this was correct.

Since asking this question, I have become interested in some of the various 5 shot revolvers made back in the day by many different manufacturers.  The reason that they are 5 shot revolvers is that they tend to be smaller, and there is no room for a 6th hole in the cylinder.   There are of course exceptions, but this is a common characteristic of this type of gun.

Now, using such a pistol would of course be a severe competitive disadvantage, but it is apparently legal, and if you are not trying for the buckle, I can see how it might be a fun way to do something different once in blue moon.    Very interesting pistols were made by Colt, Remington, Smith & Wesson, Hopkins & Allen and others that are just plain fun to shoot every now and again.  I have not used one in a match, but I have taken several pistols of this type to the range for target shooting, and I always enjoy them.   But the idea of trying one at a match intrigues me.  Has anyone ever done this, or seen it done?  It seems to me that there are several ways you could go about doing it.  If the pistol loads like a Colt via a loading gate, do you load the 5th round before or after the first 4 shots?  If you are using a S&W top break, you've pretty much got to shoot 4, eject the empties and load the fifth.   Seems to me that "Colt style" would be quicker, but S&W style might be more fun.  

It also seems to me that those who shoot left handed, or double duelist would have a slight advantage if the pistol to be reloaded is held in the left holster/hand if it's a Colt type loading; no need to shift the pistol from one hand to the other.

I would guess you'd only want 1 of your pistols to be a 5 shot.  Doing it with both would just be self torture, I think. 

And before anyone asks, I jokingly put forth the notion that you could carry 4 in your 5 shooter, and use a Nagant loaded with 6 with the hammer down on the empty 7th chamber.   I was told rather firmly that this is not a solution.  

Anyway, i don't know if I'll ever actually try this.  As much fun as these guns are to own and shoot generically, dealing with them at a match may be a bit much, especially when there are small 5 shooters that you can safely use according to the rules with 5 loaded.

 

Still, it is fun to speculate.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

A lot of those pistols would be small enough to be a pocket pistol and would therefore not be legal for main match.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Some, but not all.

But that does raise an interesting question; where is the dividing line between a "large pocket pistol" and a "small main match revolver?"  Or is there one?  I have a Cimarron Lightning in .32 that is specifically not allowed as a pocket pistol, and yet it is smaller than my Iver Johnson with target grips that I was told is specifically okay as a pocket pistol when I posted a pic and asked cuz I was unsure.    I think in the end, it's a question that is hard to answer.

And I am of course talking only about single action revolvers.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

SHEESH.

[watab kid]

this is a concern of mine as i have a pair i want to shoot , is not the first click considered a saftey position ? you cant shoot it in that position , 

 

so i started questioning my comment because id not actually checked it - was working from memory , i just checked it - first click would allow free spool the cylinder does not align with the loading gate for loading ,  you cannot pull the trigger , the second click the cylinder locks not aligned and you cannot pull the trigger , the full cocked position is the only place it can be fired and is very obvious 

Edited January 9 by watab kid

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

9 hours ago, watab kid said:

this is a concern of mine as i have a pair i want to shoot , is not the first click considered a saftey position ? you cant shoot it in that position , 

 

so i started questioning my comment because id not actually checked it - was working from memory , i just checked it - first click would allow free spool the cylinder does not align with the loading gate for loading ,  you cannot pull the trigger , the second click the cylinder locks not aligned and you cannot pull the trigger , the full cocked position is the only place it can be fired and is very obvious 

 

Yeah, the so called "safety notch click" on many single action revolvers does not count.  Nor does a revolver having a rebounding hammer have an "exemption."   By a safety position, there has to to be a slot or pinhole that you fully lower the hammer into between chambers to lock the cylinder into place.  If you have a cartridge converted 1860 with a 5 shot cylinder, you'll see the pinhole on the back of the cylinder.  A 58 Remington style gun has a kind of a slot on the edge that hammer fits into.   (No pics available at the moment, I am at work.)

[Waimea]

I wish that we could shoot any single action pistol available at the time up to 1899.

Who cares if it's a "pocket pistol"?

It'd still put a hole in ya.

[watab kid]

16 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Yeah, the so called "safety notch click" on many single action revolvers does not count.  Nor does a revolver having a rebounding hammer have an "exemption."   By a safety position, there has to to be a slot or pinhole that you fully lower the hammer into between chambers to lock the cylinder into place.  If you have a cartridge converted 1860 with a 5 shot cylinder, you'll see the pinhole on the back of the cylinder.  A 58 Remington style gun has a kind of a slot on the edge that hammer fits into.   (No pics available at the moment, I am at work.)

so my revolvers dont qualify then - i actually have to look to see if they have that 

[Griff]

I've attempted to use a pair of Patersons in a match.  I charged all five chambers, but only capped 4.  Due to the timing, you have to either fire the 4 that are capped or you have to rotate the cylinder all the way around as the half cock position rotates the cylinder so the uncapped nipple is past the hammer slot.  Which is the only position you can cap a chamber.  I used an in-line capper and it worked great on the first pistol.   The second gun locked up tight after the first shot, so I couldn't complete the stage.  Well... had to take 4 misses.  

 

I'd like to try again, but I've sorta lost confidence in these Patersons to work right with any regularity.  My other 5 shot revolvers are firmly in the pocket pistol area!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Okay, let's rule out anything double action, those are pocket pistols and nothing more.

The real question arises over the various single action 5 shot revolvers.   For example, a Smith & Wesson 1-/2 in .32 S&W is "clearly" a pocket pistol.  Right?

Well...

 

This has got a 6" barrel, so it's not a pocket pistol according to the definition in the rules.  

The fact is that while a pocket pistol is defined with a maximum size,  a main match revolver does not have a minimum size.   And since 5 shot revolvers and .32 caliber are main match legal, the above clearly would be okay, as long as it is loaded with 4 and the 5th is loaded on the clock, which in this case would mean shooting 4, ejecting the empties and loading the 5th.

But what about a gun identical to this one in every way, but with only a 4 inch barrel?  Is that a pocket pistol and not allowed to be a main match pistol, or a very small main match pistol?   The rules say you can't convert a pocket pistol to use as a main match pistol, so if you used one in a pocket pistol side match, you could not use it, but what if there was no side match you used it in?  Or does that "conversion" just apply to a gun used as a pocket pistol in one of those elusive main match stages that include a pocket pistol as a third gun that the Handbook does say happens from time to time?  

In other words, there are a lot of undefined variables.

Personally, as far as I am concerned, if it has not been used as a pocket pistol at the match, and is a single action, I feel it's main match okay.  If you wish to handicap yourself with a gun that has to have the 5th round loaded on the clock just for the fun of it, knock yourself out.

 

But there are a lot of guns from .32 to .45 that are five shooters that range from very small to "full size" that can be safely loaded with 5 according to the definitions in the rules.  You don't see them at shoots very often, but they do exist. 

[Vail Vigilante]

I'll make your eyes roll further back....

How about a Blackhawk that has been converted to 5 shots.....because it has been reworked to handle a high pressure round.....but it still takes normal cartridges and has the transfer bar..........;) 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Vail Vigilante said:

I'll make your eyes roll further back....

How about a Blackhawk that has been converted to 5 shots.....because it has been reworked to handle a high pressure round.....but it still takes normal cartridges and has the transfer bar..........;) 

 

 

Yeah, that's a five shot revolver.   What's to roll?  I mean, if you've got a .454 Casull and you run .45 Colts in, what's the problem?

Oh, will it be hammer down on an empty chamber?  Or can the cylinder lock between chambers?  If not, it's a 4 shooter for SASS.

[Vail Vigilante]

The thing is...in 3 screw 'Hawks the hammer is always in contact with the frame of the revolver. It never touches the pin.

Just having a bit of technical fun........