Black Powder in a Schofield?

[Cholla]

I recently had a black powder shooter tell me he owns a 2000 Series S&W Schofield. He tried shooting black powder in it but it rapidly got gummed up, to the point he broke the extractor. 
Is this a common thing with reproduction Schofields?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have heard that the 2000 series Schofields do not mix well with Black Powder.  I've had at least one shooter who had one tell me this in person.   I've not tried it myself.   This is the first time I've heard about one of them breaking when using the stuff though.

Here is a thread by Driftwood Johnson from a few years back that explains well why reproduction Schofields do not work with black powder.
 

Driftwood really knows a lot about the old S&W Top Breaks and how/why the work.   Much more than I do.   I just shoot 'em. 

 

 

[Cholla]

Very interesting. Thank you.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yes.  The reproductions donot have a gas ring on the front of the cylinder and gum up with real black fairly quickly.  Without a gas ring to block the blast the gases from the cylinder gap between the barrel and cylinder blow directly onto the cylinder base pin.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Cylinder gas ring.  Arrow.  Modern S&W Schofilds (and Uberti) are flat on the front so gases and dirt blow directly on the base pin.

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

https://youtu.be/hV6VDHASLEY?si=8IK70fYPOLvUmOeM

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

I have a Uberti in which I shoot a 230gr bullet over 25grs of 2f in Schofield cases.  It'll go about two cylinders full (10 shots) before it starts to drag. I spritz it with moose milk after each stage to prevent any issues.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

A few have had luck with substitute BP. But using the real stuff is no joy. I had a pair in 44-40 and sold them.

[Blackwater 53393]

I had a pair of Model 3 .44 Russians that I used occasionally in Frontier Cartridge.  They workrd well, but I was using Mobile 1 lube on the cylinder pin and wiped them down between stages.

 

I don’t know how much different they are from the Schofields.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

54 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I had a pair of Model 3 .44 Russians that I used occasionally in Frontier Cartridge.  They workrd well, but I was using Mobile 1 lube on the cylinder pin and wiped them down between stages.

 

I don’t know how much different they are from the Schofields.

 

 

I really think that making sure the arbor has a generous coating of a good synthetic grease like Mobil 1 Red would go a long ways towards keeping the cylinder working when shooting BP. 

 

I also think that the brand of BP plays a significant role. I can tell the difference in the amount of fouling on my C&B pistols between the different brands of real BP. Graf & Sons BP shoots a lot cleaner than GOEX.

[Blackwater 53393]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I really think that making sure the arbor has a generous coating of a good synthetic grease like Mobil 1 Red would go a long ways towards keeping the cylinder working when shooting BP. 

 

I also think that the brand of BP plays a significant role. I can tell the difference in the amount of fouling on my C&B pistols between the different brands of real BP. Graf & Sons BP shoots a lot cleaner than GOEX.

At last report, Graf’s is actually Schuetzen repackaged.  I have both and the granulation and consistency is the same.

 

 

Edited for spelling!  Per Griff’s scolding! 🙄 🤣

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by Blackwater 53393

[Eyesa Horg]

17 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

At last report, Graf’s is actually Schiutzen (sp) repackaged.  I have both and the granulation and consistency is the same.

 

 

Same here, I use 3F Shutzen/Grafs in my 1860's. They make it ok thru 3 stages of Plainsman, but I feel them getting a little tighter. I've been hesitant to spritz Balistol near the cylinder face for fear of chamber contamination.

[Griff]

37 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

At last report, Graf’s is actually Schiutzen (sp) repackaged.  I have both and the granulation and consistency is the same.

It's spelled Schuetzen, but I still prefer Swiss.  Cleaner, more consistent and plus... easier to spell!  Probably why CC uses APP!!!😜

Edited January 5 by Griff

[Blackwater 53393]

56 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Same here, I use 3F Shutzen/Grafs in my 1860's. They make it ok thru 3 stages of Plainsman, but I feel them getting a little tighter. I've been hesitant to spritz Balistol near the cylinder face for fear of chamber contamination.

 

No need to fear the Balistol!! Unless you pour it into the chambers it’s unlikely to cause any problems. I DO wipe my cylinder face down after a spritz!

 

38 minutes ago, Griff said:

It's spelled Schuetzen, but I still prefer Swiss.  Cleaner, more consistent and plus... easier to spell!  Probably why CC uses APP!!!😜

I stand corrected on my spelling!!  I’ve lived in hillbilly land for so long that I haven’t bothered to keep up with my spelling skills!! 🙄

 

Swiss IS. better quality and I have some on hand, but for CAS distances, Goex or Schuetzen or even older brands are more than sufficient and less costly!

 

I save the Swiss for long range!!

[Cholla]

Going down this rabbit hole led me to duplex loads. I do not understand why a small amount of smokeless powder would reduce fouling unless it improves the combustion of black powder, thus making fewer solids.

 

 

[Griff]

Quote

BLACKPOWDER AMMUNITION
- Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes.

Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited in ANY category. (e.g., Blackhorn 209). Through testing of various loads, it has been determined that 1cc of blackpowder, in either a .32, .38, .44 or .45 caliber case, all produce approximately the same amount of smoke (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements). Before deciding on any reduced loads, a competitor should test them to ensure they meet the base line standards.

Emphasis added.  Although Pyrodex (aka:  "rusting agent that burns") is listed, I highly recommend against it.  I've read about duplexing for years, studied its use and contemplated using it on occasion, I still haven't.  I understand that it's very effective in controlling fouling, but... if I don't fully understand something, I'll avoid it.  

[Griff]

38 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Swiss IS. better quality and I have some on hand, but for CAS distances, Goex or Schuetzen or even older brands are more than sufficient and less costly!

 

I save the Swiss for long range!!

Up to the last year or so, I used plain old Goex.  3F in my pistols, 2F in my Hawken and "Cartridge" in my Sharps .40-90SBN.  When I went to purchase some powder, Goex was shut down, and neither Powder, Inc nor Graf's had anything on hand except Swiss.  So I bought a few cans of 3F for the pistols.  At ~15 grains per charge, a pound goes quite a ways.  I'm using APP in the shotshells and have no complaints... except from the peanut gallery!

[Cholla]

52 minutes ago, Griff said:

Emphasis added.  Although Pyrodex (aka:  "rusting agent that burns") is listed, I highly recommend against it.  I've read about duplexing for years, studied its use and contemplated using it on occasion, I still haven't.  I understand that it's very effective in controlling fouling, but... if I don't fully understand something, I'll avoid it.  

I knew it was not allowed in SASS events. 

[Griff]

13 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I knew it was not allowed in SASS events. 

I'm sure... but not every reader here is familiar with the rules, nor an experienced SASS competitor.  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have to admit that the prohibition on duplex loads makes sense.   It just seems like me to be a problem waiting to happen.

But I don't understand that the problem with Blackhorn 209 is.   When all is said and done, it is a FACTORY powder, not someone mixing things up.

 

[Griff]

It's a 83% nitrocellulose powder, with ingredients added to make it appear to smoke like BP.  Other subs don't use nitrocellulose.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Still don't see what the problem is.

Not that I really CARE, I shoot smokeless most of the time anyway.  I just don't understand.   I did experiment with the stuff out of curiosity, not at a shoot.   It smokes.  It creates BP levels of pressure.  Fellow standing next to me at the firing range thought I was using black powder and thought it was "cool" as he'd never seen anyone use it before.   I just don't get what the problem is.

I guess it's just one of those rules that are what they are that don't make much sense.   

But let all that go.   

I do remember reading here on the Wire once that when people complained that the Performance Center guns didn't work with black powder, Smith & Wesson was actually shocked that anyone would want to even try black powder in the guns, and by some accounts, that people would want to fire them in general as they thought they were making a "collector" piece.   I found myself remembering how when somebody made a Roy Rogers commemorative rifle, and serial number 1 was given to Roy himself.  He remarked how he was looking forward to taking it to the range to see how it shot to gasps of horror.  He responded with words to the effect of what is the sense of owning a gun if you're not gonna shoot it.

I think he was right. 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Still don't see what the problem is.

Not that I really CARE, I shoot smokeless most of the time anyway.  I just don't understand.   I did experiment with the stuff out of curiosity, not at a shoot.   It smokes.  It creates BP levels of pressure.  Fellow standing next to me at the firing range thought I was using black powder and thought it was "cool" as he'd never seen anyone use it before.   I just don't get what the problem is.

I guess it's just one of those rules that are what they are that don't make much sense.   

But let all that go.   

I do remember reading here on the Wire once that when people complained that the Performance Center guns didn't work with black powder, Smith & Wesson was actually shocked that anyone would want to even try black powder in the guns, and by some accounts, that people would want to fire them in general as they thought they were making a "collector" piece.   I found myself remembering how when somebody made a Roy Rogers commemorative rifle, and serial number 1 was given to Roy himself.  He remarked how he was looking forward to taking it to the range to see how it shot to gasps of horror.  He responded with words to the effect of what is the sense of owning a gun if you're not gonna shoot it.

I think he was right. 

I did wright about this a year ago and moderators deleted my post because they said it was not safe.

I tried to dispute this fact because it was also done back in the day .

But they run this sight and I using there platform .

So it is what it is .

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/An5xioGclaA?si=ImUBy7XmlSJdcz6n

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

8 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I did wright about this a year ago and moderators deleted my post because they said it was not safe.

I tried to dispute this fact because it was also done back in the day .

But they run this sight and I using there platform .

So it is what it is .

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/An5xioGclaA?si=ImUBy7XmlSJdcz6n

 

Rooster, I assume you are saying that duplex loads are safe.  I will, provisionally, agree with you.  If you have the right kind of smokeless and know what you are doing, it very well could be safe.  That being said, I can foresee too many people making a catastrophic mistake.   There are just to many variables.  Which smokeless?  How much do you use?  Even if it's safe for a gun made last Tuesday, is it safe for one made in 1884?  

On the one hand, I am a firm believer that when it comes to safety, it is the responsibility of the shooter, not SASS.  And while I really don't believe it is up to SASS to guard against "stupid," for lack of a better term, I can understand why the organization would be very opposed to duplex loads.   For one thing, if the guy making them DID screw up, he puts not only himself and his guns at risk, but anyone near by.  So, I get the "no duplex" rule.

 

And even the most careful of reloaders can make a mistake to deleterious effect.

 

Once this has happened, you tend to want to eliminate any possibility of something like this happening again.   The above is why I won't use Win231 anymore, for example.   

 

Believe it or not, I was able to have the top gun, a real Colt, repaired.   The bottom Armi San Marco, remains dead.  

And with all of THAT being said, let's just say for the sake of discussion that you figured out a safe duplex load for .45 Colt using a specific amount of a certain smokeless and oh so much black.  Clearly there is no reason why you should not use it when you go the range for fun, and even share the data with people who ask about it.   But that's a different animal altogether.

And now, setting everything else aside, I really hope you and I get to shoot together some day. 

[Griff]

14 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Still don't see what the problem is.

H.K., the fact is, and the reason it's prohibited in SASS Blackpowder categories, Blackhorn 209 IS undeniably a smokeless powder.  While it's a low pressure smokeless powder, that also produces smoke like BP & the other subs, and marketed as a black powder substitute, its chemistry is anything but.  The other subs don't use  nitrocellulose (smokeless powder) as their propellant.  

[Lucky R. K.]

Several years ago, I did a lot of experimenting with duplex loads. Usually used 4227 or 5744 for the priming charge and any 2F or 3F black powder. You didn't have to worry about how clean it shot. It pretty much shot like smokeless. This might surprise some of you. If you duplex 4F with either 2F or 3F black powder you get pretty much the same results. About 10% 4F to 90% 2 or 3F. Try it, you will be surprised.

Lucky 😁

[Eyesa Horg]

You mix the two or does the 4F go in first? Just curious!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

H.K., the fact is, and the reason it's prohibited in SASS Blackpowder categories, Blackhorn 209 IS undeniably a smokeless powder.  While it's a low pressure smokeless powder, that also produces smoke like BP & the other subs, and marketed as a black powder substitute, its chemistry is anything but.  The other subs don't use  nitrocellulose (smokeless powder) as their propellant.  

 

Okay.    Although, you did say it produces smoke like BP and other subs.   The Handbook says that BP shooter have to deal with smoke obscured targets.  This stuff does produce enough smoke to do that.   Handbook says nothing about chemistry.   It does say that duplex loads are not allowed, and then parenthetically mentions 209.    Given the amount of smoke it creates, it sure doesn't seem like a smokeless powder in practical reality.

But let all of that go.  I'll accept your assertion that without regard to how much smoke it throws out, that it is smokeless and can't be used in a BP category.

So why can't it be used in a "smokeless" category?    

 

[Griff]

47 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

So why can't it be used in a "smokeless" category?    

I'll grant that is a legitimate question.  But, maybe the answer is as simple as the one given by millions of parents to 3 year olds... "because I said so!" 😁

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

22 minutes ago, Griff said:

I'll grant that is a legitimate question.  But, maybe the answer is as simple as the one given by millions of parents to 3 year olds... "because I said so!" 😁

 

Griff, I must laugh a lot upon hearing that.   It seems to be the only explanation to several of the rules of our game.

Lessee....  You are in Texas.  I'll put you on my list of pards I hope to get to shoot with someday. 

Edited January 6 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

52 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Griff, I must laugh a lot upon hearing that.   It seems to be the only explanation to several of the rules of our game.

Lessee....  You are in Texas.  I'll put you on my list of pards I hope to get to shoot with someday. 

 He is a truck driver and travels all over the country so you don’t necessarily need to come to Texas to be able to shoot with Griff.  

Edited January 6 by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L

[Eyesa Horg]

Well Griff.... Make a run to New England! I wouldn't mind shootin with ya either.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Well Griff.... Make a run to New England! I wouldn't mind shootin with ya either.

Well... NY requires I put a special sticker on my front bumper... unfortunately, it and their politics on 2A clash with mine!  The closest I come to NE is PA, and that rarely!  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

To say nothing of the fact that to legally bring guns into Massachusetts, you must have a Massachusetts issued License to Carry Firearms, and they must be registered in the state.  If you don't have those things, you go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass GO and do not collect $200.00.    You can pass through on your way to, say, New Hampshire, but you can't overnight, or unpack your guns while here.   So no out of state hunters, no out of state participants in local shooting events.   It's not technically illegal, but to do so legally is not easy.

A non resident Mass LTC will cost you $100 for 1 year.   Registering your guns is fairly easy, but you can't do it if you don't have the local gun permit.  (And from what I have read, it's not easy for out of staters to get one.)  

This has had a very negative effect on CAS here in Massachusetts.   At any given shoot in the Commonwealth, you'd traditionally get people from the rest of the New England states to the tune of up to half the participants.   That doesn't happen now.   It's why, among other things, the Massachusetts/Connecticut/Rhode Island tristate is held in Maine now.