Eyesa Horg Posted January 5 Posted January 5 (edited) They also seem to forget they indicted Maduro back in 2020! Edited January 5 by Eyesa Horg Otto 1 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: They also seem to forget they indicted Maduro back in 2020! …In liberal New York!! 1 1 Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 No, I'm not forgetting how bad Maduro is or what he's done. No I'm not forgetting what happened to the oil companies. Yes I know people are celebrating in the streets because they're glad he's gone and they're not thinking beyond that. Yes I know what was going on was bad for us and bad for Venezuelans and something needed to be done, I'm just not pretending it's ok to try and fix these problems with the worst idea we could come up with. Why wait until we're trying to deal with the problems this will cause just because we've done it so many times before? Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. 1 Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 6 Posted January 6 "... There is a vast difference between opinions on socialism and communism between people who have lived under it and people who have, well, had college paid for by parents they resent." -Brandon Herrera More at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXc2ZeM5lZk&list=WL&index=1 5 Quote
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 37 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. Somebody once said that "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." "Even if I'm wrong in trying to do good, I'll still try to do good." That one is pure me. 6 Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 6 Posted January 6 49 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: No, I'm not forgetting how bad Maduro is or what he's done. No I'm not forgetting what happened to the oil companies. Yes I know people are celebrating in the streets because they're glad he's gone and they're not thinking beyond that. Yes I know what was going on was bad for us and bad for Venezuelans and something needed to be done, I'm just not pretending it's ok to try and fix these problems with the worst idea we could come up with. Why wait until we're trying to deal with the problems this will cause just because we've done it so many times before? Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. I don't disagree. Sometimes the right path is not clear. I do agree with people not thinking beyond the moment and they should. I do give a lot of weight to the reactions of those who left Venezuela. I also see reports of large numbers of people leaving Venezuela since this event. And reports of fears of if groceries will be in stores tomorrow or next week or month. If too many leave, there will be no ability to deliver goods to stores, or jobs to go to to earn wages to buy any products. Right now, stores are pretty much bought out. Not like some temporary situation like a hurricane, but risk of a complete economic stall. I did see a video of people in an apartment (in Venezvuela) reacting with joy to the news as it came onto the TV. Having training in video production, I found the video resolution and sound quality was just too good, the camera just too stable for being carried by hand, the framing perfect for cinematic presentation, the action (almost?) looking choreographed. Perhaps just someone very talented with a phone camera and got lucky... Perhaps a deep-fake. I will not feel confident of local reactions until the people there have some sense of stability and predictability. I'll give it a few days, then look again to see what the on-the-ground situation and opinions are. And did the US do the right thing? Probably not black and white, will be more of figuring out what shade of gray and a view of history looking back from someday. 3 Quote
Buckshot Bear Posted January 6 Posted January 6 On Sunday there were a small bunch of lefties marching in Sydney with placards.....how the hell do they get organised so fast? I bet 99% of them couldn't point to Venezuela on a map. 6 Quote
Doc Shapiro Posted January 6 Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Buckshot Bear said: On Sunday there were a small bunch of lefties marching in Sydney with placards.....how the hell do they get organised so fast? I bet 99% of them couldn't point to Venezuela on a map. As far as I can tell, they are funded by the CCP. 3 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 6 Author Posted January 6 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said: On Sunday there were a small bunch of lefties marching in Sydney with placards.....how the hell do they get organised so fast? I bet 99% of them couldn't point to Venezuela on a map. There a group dedicated to paying protesters called Crowds on Demand. They actually fund groups that want to protest. demonstrators. Their clients include businesses, political campaigns, and advocacy groups. Participants are usually actors or contractors, not grassroots volunteers. This practice is legal if done transparently and not to commit fraud, but it is widely criticized as manipulative and ethically questionable. Media investigations have confirmed they’ve been used in staged demonstrations. In short: They exist, they pay people to show up, and that’s what people mean when they talk about “paid protesters.” Edited January 6 by Rye Miles #13621 4 1 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 6 Author Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: No, I'm not forgetting how bad Maduro is or what he's done. No I'm not forgetting what happened to the oil companies. Yes I know people are celebrating in the streets because they're glad he's gone and they're not thinking beyond that. Yes I know what was going on was bad for us and bad for Venezuelans and something needed to be done, I'm just not pretending it's ok to try and fix these problems with the worst idea we could come up with. Why wait until we're trying to deal with the problems this will cause just because we've done it so many times before? Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. I don’t think what we did was the “wrong thing”. That’s where I disagree. 1 Quote
watab kid Posted January 6 Posted January 6 in spite of my obvious fat finger typos you figured it out thanks , interesting twist on the voting machines i seem to remember some of that here as well , wonder if any elections are honest anymore - think we need to go back to paper and dipping fingers in ink well with honest counts again 3 Quote
Chantry Posted January 6 Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: No, I'm not forgetting how bad Maduro is or what he's done. No I'm not forgetting what happened to the oil companies. Yes I know people are celebrating in the streets because they're glad he's gone and they're not thinking beyond that. Yes I know what was going on was bad for us and bad for Venezuelans and something needed to be done, I'm just not pretending it's ok to try and fix these problems with the worst idea we could come up with. Why wait until we're trying to deal with the problems this will cause just because we've done it so many times before? Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. Do you have another way to achieve the same result, which is the removal of a dictator who is generally considered to have rigged the last "election", who has sheltered drug dealers smuggling drugs to the U.S., has received military equipment from countries (Russia, China, Cuba) unfriendly to the U.S. ,ruined the economy and wrecked the standard of living for the average Venezuelan citizen? I'll note that it is currently illegal to assassinate a foreign leader (executive order by Ford). 3 Quote
Windy City Kid Posted January 6 Posted January 6 If you see a snake, kill it. Don't appoint a committee on snakes - Ross Perot 3 2 Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: I don’t think what we did was the “wrong thing”. That’s where I disagree. You've got a lot of great arguments on your side, all I have is two questions. Is it ok to use military force instead of diplomacy if you don't have to, and did we have to? Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 3 hours ago, Chantry said: Do you have another way to achieve the same result, which is the removal of a dictator who is generally considered to have rigged the last "election", who has sheltered drug dealers smuggling drugs to the U.S., has received military equipment from countries (Russia, China, Cuba) unfriendly to the U.S. ,ruined the economy and wrecked the standard of living for the average Venezuelan citizen? I'll note that it is currently illegal to assassinate a foreign leader (executive order by Ford). Sounds like you think the purpose of this was to remove the dictator. Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Windy City Kid said: If you see a snake, kill it. Don't appoint a committee on snakes - Ross Perot Oops, looks like i killed the rat snake that was gonna kill the snake that killed my dog. 2 Quote
Chantry Posted January 6 Posted January 6 13 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Sounds like you think the purpose of this was to remove the dictator. He says, without answering any of my questions. 1 Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 6 Posted January 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: Don't think Maduro would be very diplomatic! Well, he did invite Trump to come and get him, he was waiting. https://1a-1791.com/video/fwe2/70/s8/2/c/h/k/N/chkNz.caa.mp4?b=1&u=ummtf Edited January 6 by John Kloehr 2 1 5 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 6 Author Posted January 6 9 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: Well, he did invite trump to come and get him, he was waiting. https://1a-1791.com/video/fwe2/70/s8/2/c/h/k/N/chkNz.caa.mp4?b=1&u=ummtf Trump told him to get out, go somewhere and we’ll leave you alone several times! 😂 1 Quote
Cypress Sun Posted January 6 Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Oops, looks like i killed the rat snake that was gonna kill the snake that killed my dog. I met that snake's sister once, 5 Quote
Stump Water Posted January 7 Posted January 7 On 1/5/2026 at 8:01 PM, John Kloehr said: "... There is a vast difference between opinions on socialism and communism between people who have lived under it and people who have, well, had college paid for by parents they resent." -Brandon Herrera Not watching the video. The quote makes absolutely zero sense. Yes, I know who he is. And he's a bona fide nut case. Never served but claims he is "essentially a military veteran". Why, I have no idea. Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 7 Author Posted January 7 10 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: You've got a lot of great arguments on your side, all I have is two questions. Is it ok to use military force instead of diplomacy if you don't have to, and did we have to? Diplomacy didn’t work. Trump told Maduro to get out and go somewhere else a few times. He told him he would leave him alone if he left the country. So much for diplomacy with a scumbag drug dealer like Maduro. He taunted Trump and made fun of him instead of dealing with him diplomatically. 2 Quote
watab kid Posted January 7 Posted January 7 15 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Sounds like you think the purpose of this was to remove the dictator. NO - it was to arrest an indicted criminal and bring him to justice - he is already in our judicial system claiming innocence it will play out over the next year or so i suspect , Venezuela will go on - the government is still functioning , we shall see if they work with us and quit oppressing their people - if we wanted total regiem change there would be more than cubans dead there , it was only a few years ago that there were requests to deal with him - we have , deal with it , 3 Quote
watab kid Posted January 7 Posted January 7 On 1/5/2026 at 3:32 PM, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Yes exactly. Do you think invading, killing dozens of people including civilian bystanders, and removing the old President and threatening the new one is the right way to handle this? Americans rationalized and accepted this and then our President went straight to talking about Greenland again saying we have to have it. Venezuela is not just something that happened and now it's over. Not by a long shot! How many times do you have to hear different Presidents in different parties say we have to do this, it will be easy and it will turn out great before you start to get a little bit skeptical? what innocent bystanders - ive not heard that yet , it was a surgical strike , Quote
watab kid Posted January 7 Posted January 7 5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Diplomacy didn’t work. Trump told Maduro to get out and go somewhere else a few times. He told him he would leave him alone if he left the country. So much for diplomacy with a scumbag drug dealer like Maduro. He taunted Trump and made fun of him instead of dealing with him diplomatically. yes indeed he offered him a choice of luxury in exile or what happened - im sure that those with egos and the narcasistic mindset that these people have do underestimate the capability of not just us but russia , isreal , and china .........really a bad choice to poke the bear Quote
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 7 Posted January 7 On 1/5/2026 at 6:00 PM, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: No, I'm not forgetting how bad Maduro is or what he's done. No I'm not forgetting what happened to the oil companies. Yes I know people are celebrating in the streets because they're glad he's gone and they're not thinking beyond that. Yes I know what was going on was bad for us and bad for Venezuelans and something needed to be done, I'm just not pretending it's ok to try and fix these problems with the worst idea we could come up with. Why wait until we're trying to deal with the problems this will cause just because we've done it so many times before? Just remember the end doesn't justify the means, never has and never will. If you do the wrong thing for the right reasons, you're still doing the wrong thing. Really? Remember WWII? 2 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 7 Author Posted January 7 2 hours ago, watab kid said: what innocent bystanders - ive not heard that yet , it was a surgical strike , Its not known yet for sure, this is what I found: Some civilians are reported to have died, but official figures for civilian casualties have not been released. Eyewitness and imagery reports describe significant damage to urban areas and residential buildings, which raises strong concerns that non-combatants likely were killed or injured during the strikes. Independent, verified casualty breakdowns (combatants vs. non-combatants) do not yet exist in public reporting. Because of the fog of war and limited official disclosure, reputable news organizations are cautious about labeling individuals as “innocent victims” until more detailed casualty assessments are available. 2 Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 7 Posted January 7 3 hours ago, watab kid said: what innocent bystanders - ive not heard that yet , it was a surgical strike , 1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Its not known yet for sure, this is what I found: ... I have heard 40 dead, 32 were Cuban guards. That leaves 8 not specified. 2 Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 7 Posted January 7 20 hours ago, Chantry said: He says, without answering any of my questions. You really only had one question, is there a better way to remove that dictator which completely skips over the real question of whether we should. How many dictators have we left in place, and how many have we hyped up reasons why they have to go and assured everybody it would be easy and it would turn out great, and then years later said oh yeah that's where all these problems started. Quote
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 7 Posted January 7 3 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said: Really? Remember WWII? Yes. Are you asking because you think it was wrong but we should have done it anyway? If it's wrong it's wrong, and it stays wrong even if it's easier and even if bean counters say it's better. People do wrong things all the time, and so do countries, and then we live with it and go from there. All I'm saying is I prefer to make decisions based on judging the means instead of just achieving the end at any cost. Quote
Windy City Kid Posted January 7 Posted January 7 On 1/5/2026 at 3:32 PM, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Do you think invading, killing dozens of people including civilian bystanders, and removing the old President and threatening the new one is the right way to handle this? Yes 2 Quote
Chantry Posted January 7 Posted January 7 13 minutes ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: You really only had one question, is there a better way to remove that dictator which completely skips over the real question of whether we should. How many dictators have we left in place, and how many have we hyped up reasons why they have to go and assured everybody it would be easy and it would turn out great, and then years later said oh yeah that's where all these problems started. I listed the reasons (and agree with them) to remove Maduro, including that most countries did not recognize Maduro as a legitimately elected president. It has been the view of both political parties in the US that Maduro needed to be removed from power. Other than putting $25 million dollar bounty on his head, the previous administration didn't seem to proceed past that. 3 Quote
Chantry Posted January 7 Posted January 7 2 hours ago, John Kloehr said: I have heard 40 dead, 32 were Cuban guards. That leaves 8 not specified. Might have been "friendly fire" for the 8 not specified. I ran across a story yesterday that Venezuela military fired at their own drones thinking they were US aircraft or US drones. 2 Quote
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