Brady Hawkes, Gambler Style

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

This is an idea that, admittedly, started as something of joke in my mind.   But it is something that just keep kicking around, so I thought I would bring it up more somewhat more seriously.  If if goes nowhere, well, there is no loss, but if if it does, that might be fun.

Now, we all know, or should know, what "Josey Wales" style shooting is.   That's where you substitute more pistols for the rifle, and maybe the shotgun, in a typical 10-10-4 scenario.   it's entirely voluntary, unofficial, and requires no special setup to throw off people shooting the stages the regular way.

I would like to propose as idea for something similar, that will call, Brady Hawkes style, after the character played by Kenny Rogers in the made for TV Gambler movies.   Several ideas have popped around in my head, and after giving it much though, this is what I have finally come up with.

For a rifle, any typical Main Match rifle fired at the rifle targets.
For the pistols, any two (according the the SASS rules) Pocket Pistols, carried in holsters, with the hammers down on empty chambers.  Since many (but not all) of this type of pistol are five shot revolvers with no safety notch, both pistols will be loaded with four rounds each.   These rounds will engage pistol targets 1 through 8.  Pistol targets 9 and 10 will be engaged with a derringer that is staged at the appropriate location on the firing line.
For the shotgun, and single barrel shotgun, any gauge, .410 okay.   If using the .410, the targets must be hit, but don't necessarily have to fall.

This is the basic idea.  I think it could be a lot of fun, and since it is unofficial and voluntary, it could be offered the same way as Josey Wales style is offered by places that decide to give it a try.

I suppose there is room to modify some of the gun requirements, but this is just what made the most sense to me.   The reason I thought of using a single barrel shotgun was fairly simple.   Part of the idea is the concept of using "smaller" guns and a single shot shotgun kinda sorta fits that bill, especially if it's a .410.   I considered saying the rifle had to have a 20" barrel or less, but decided against it so as to be as "flexible" as possible and not discourage people from trying it.

As to the pistols...   Well, there is room for variation.   If the pistols can safely be loaded with 5 each, there is no need for the derringer.  Or, one of the pistols could be reloaded for shots 9 and 10, or instead of a derringer, a 3rd pocket pistol for shots 9 and 10.  Or even any kind of a pistol that is staged where the derringer was.  It was just that in the movies, Brady's derringer was the signature gun, so I wanted to include it.   Given the unofficial status, it would be up to clubs who offer it to decide what kind of pistols/shotguns are allowed.    But of course, safety must be taken into consideration.

Will this ever catch on?   I have no idea.   I just know that if we don't at least talk about it, no one will ever consider offering it.   So I am running it up the proverbial flag poll to see if anyone salutes.


There'll be time enough for countin' the scores, when the shootin's done!

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

When I first started shooting CAS, we used to use derringers to start the stage, off the clock.  Since most people are unfamiliar with derringers we stopped doing it.  It was a safety concern that someone could extend their finger past the muzzle and shoot their finger. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

5 minutes ago, Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 said:

When I first started shooting CAS, we used to use derringers to start the stage, off the clock.  Since most people are unfamiliar with derringers we stopped doing it.  It was a safety concern that someone could extend their finger past the muzzle and shoot their finger. 

 

That was a "concern" I had, which is why I suggested that the third pistol could be either a third pocket, or even a regular main match pistol loaded with two rounds.

Of course, since it's unofficial and voluntary, maybe anyone who tries it will be more familiar with these types of pistols?

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Very time consuming to stage, for each shooter.

BTDT

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Very time consuming to stage, for each shooter.

BTDT

 

How so?  Everything is the same except for the third pistol, whatever it is.  It just get's set at the proper location when the rifle and shotgun are staged.   Can't see how that will add all that much more time.   What am I missing?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

SIMPLE - NO!!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

45 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

How so?  Everything is the same except for the third pistol, whatever it is.  It just get's set at the proper location when the rifle and shotgun are staged.   Can't see how that will add all that much more time.   What am I missing?

Who's gonna unload and reload that revolver and return it to the firing line?

Like I said, BTDT, really slows things down.

Try it and you'll see 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

10 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Who's gonna unload and reload that revolver and return it to the firing line?

Like I said, BTDT, really slows things down.

Try it and you'll see 

BTDT?

I still don't get where the delay is.   You are loading while other people are shooting.  You are ready when the previous shooter is done.  You walk out to stage your guns.   There is the "extra pistol" sure, but I don't see how it adds any additional significant set up time.   Especially when you compare it to Josey Wales.   That doesn't really take significantly longer either.   As far as after the stage is done goes, at many shoots, one of the spotters or someone will usually grab one or both of the shooter's long guns and walk them over to the unloading table.   How does an extra pistol add a problem?

Once at the unloading table, shooter unloads everything and returns it to cart as normal.

I'm sorry if I am confused, Lumpy.   I am really trying, and failing, to see what your point is.   Are are kinda slow dat way, I guesses. 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

BTDT=Been There, Done That.

Who will be taking care of the third revolver?

It has to be taken to the unloading table to be unloaded. Then walked to the loading table to load it, then returned to the shooting position. 

It's a time killer, especially with a big posse.

You really need to get to a shoot and you'll see. 

[Shawnee Hills]

6 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

For the pistols, any two (according the the SASS rules) Pocket Pistols, carried in holsters, with the hammers down on empty chambers.

No thanks.  Not too interested in buying a pair of these just to play this game.

 

2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

one of the spotters or someone will usually grab one or both of the shooter's long guns and walk them over to the unloading table.

Off topic but folks are taking a bit of a risk by doing this.  Should they cause damage to another shooter's gun, they'd better be prepared to pay for it.  Better just to let the shooter handle their own weapons.

[Eyesa Horg]

For us, Josie Wales usually goes a tad faster as there is no wait for brass rats. We did a match recently with a derringer for 2 bonus shots. While brass picking and next shooter staging a designated person had the derringer cleared, reloaded and staged by the time the shooter was ready. For the different fun had, there was really no significant delay.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

40 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

BTDT=Been There, Done That.

Who will be taking care of the third revolver?

It has to be taken to the unloading table to be unloaded. Then walked to the loading table to load it, then returned to the shooting position. 

It's a time killer, especially with a big posse.

You really need to get to a shoot and you'll see. 

 

I am really not getting what you are saying.

I am at the loading table.  I load all three of my pistols.  Two go in holsters, one goes to be staged.  I shoot the stage, all three of my pistols go with me to the unloading table.   I unload them and take all three of them back to my cart.   Why would my third pistol go back to the loading table for the next shooter?  Everybody shoots their own guns.  I are confused...

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

29 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I am really not getting what you are saying.

I am at the loading table.  I load all three of my pistols.  Two go in holsters, one goes to be staged.  I shoot the stage, all three of my pistols go with me to the unloading table.   I unload them and take all three of them back to my cart.   Why would my third pistol go back to the loading table for the next shooter?  Everybody shoots their own guns.  I are confused...

 

 

What do you do for folks that don't have a third pistol?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What do you do for folks that don't have a third pistol?

 

Since it is unofficial and voluntary, they shoot their normal category.   Just like people without 4 or 5 revolvers (Or who don't want to) don't shoot Josey Wales when it is an option.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

31 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Since it is unofficial and voluntary, they shoot their normal category.   Just like people without 4 or 5 revolvers (Or who don't want to) don't shoot Josey Wales when it is an option.

Sounds like a scoring nightmare. 

Do you divide the 4 and 5 gun categories? 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

If you apply the SASS category matrix there are over 150 categories.  The last thing that is needed is more categories.  Before anyone suggests a category or side match they should put on a match shooting that category or side match so they have some idea what they are asking for overworked match directors to do.

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

Sounds like fun!  Love the addition of a derringer. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

47 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Sounds like a scoring nightmare. 

Do you divide the 4 and 5 gun categories? 

Same way you score those who shoot four or five pistols instead of 2 pistols a rifle and a shotgun.

And the three pistols "equal" two pistols.   They are used to shoot at the same 10 targets.

It's really not all that complicated.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

49 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Same way you score those who shoot four or five pistols instead of 2 pistols a rifle and a shotgun.

And the three pistols "equal" two pistols.   They are used to shoot at the same 10 targets.

It's really not all that complicated.  

I was referring to the total time.

[Stump Water]

Set it up and do it.

 

Started CAS in 2003.  Wasn't every match, but starting a stage with a "house" derringer or pocket pistol wasn't uncommon... on the clock (gasp!)  Someone unloaded/loaded it at the table where it was staged (did it at a monthly at Wartrace).  If you brought your own, fine - load on the line and same loader/unloader person took it to the unloading table.  Saw it at a state match too, except everyone shot the same derringer.  Sorry folks, but it wasn't the HUGE time sink everyone wails about.

 

Been to monthly matches where 1911s and pencil-barrel DA revolvers were allowed.  Five in each mag or five in the cylinder - just like the SAs.  No, they are NOT faster.   And this was before any of the so-called "Wild Bunch" we have today.

 

I've shot stages that had four pistols and/or two rifles.  Somehow everyone was able to come up with the "extra" guns.

 

I've shot stages with pistols and 12 SG knock-downs (no rifle).  Heck, I've shot ALL shotgun stages.

 

I've shot stages where the final shot was out of a "house" 45-70.  Again, if you have your own, bring it.

 

Won't see any of this in today's cleansed CAS.

 

As my friend Red Cent would have said, "Set it up.  I'll shoot it."

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

13 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I was referring to the total time.

Raw time minus any misses or penalties.

What other way is there?
 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Raw time minus any misses or penalties.

What other way is there?
 

[Jet]

I don't think it's a huge time saver or extender.  If someone wanted to try it at a local match why not, so long as the range and Match Director allows it.  It's like Josey Wales, you want to shoot it, you're responsible for bringing the extra pistols, which is why I haven't shot it yet, I only own 4.  Now when talking about using a single shot .410, that could slow things down quite a bit unless you're a fast .410 loader.  But to each their own.  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Jet said:

Now when talking about using a single shot .410, that could slow things down quite a bit unless you're a fast .410 loader. 

 

I actually thought this is where there would be the most objections.   Now, it doesn't not have to be a .410.  A 12 gauge singe shot would be just fine.    I just said ".410 is okay" to allow for more variation, and cuz it seemed to me to fit more with the idea of the small pistols.

I recently obtained a couple of SS shotguns.   A Hopkins and Allen 12 for $50 bucks, with the first one, and on a whim, I tried it at a match.   The only place I had a problem was when one of the SG targets released a flier.  Oh well.   That aside, I found shooting this thing to be incredibly fun.   So much so that I continued and obtained a Webley 12 for $115 and most recently, a Stevens .410 for $100.   They are just cool old guns, and I tried to think of a way to encourage their use.

[Stump Water]

Remember, ejector allowed on single shot shotguns.   They don't have to be slow.

 

https://www.caswr.com/mens-shotgun-single-shot 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 hours ago, Stump Water said:

Remember, ejector allowed on single shot shotguns.   They don't have to be slow.

 

https://www.caswr.com/mens-shotgun-single-shot 

 

I will admit, that was something I found to be rather nifty.   First time it spat out the shell, it surprised me!