45 Cowboy Special in rifle

[Leroy Luck]

I use a 45 Colt sizing die, 45 Colt seating die and a Redding 45 Auto Rim profile crimp die. I’ll have to look up the number of the die to be sure which exact one it is. 
 

I load on a Dillon 650 and, if I recall correctly, the ACP and Colt use the same powder funnel. 
 

I will throw out there that I’ve loaded the same bullets in 45 ACP as well as C45S. I’ve ran a few pieces of C45S brass through my 45 ACP tool head (without changing anything) and they drop right into a cartridge checker. 

[Tall John]

I think the answer was in @Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 original post from 2016…

 

“While any ACP/Autorim dies will work, along with a .45 Colt shell plate, the very best results to date have been achieved using Hornady New Dimension .45 caliber dies no. 546554. 

 

Note Hornady uses the same dies for .45 Colt, ACP, Autorim, and win mag. 

 

They produce a proper roll crimp, and use a sliding bullet guide that aids in seating even very short bullets straight. 

 

The sizing die is also a bit larger than typical ACP dies, which provides proper bullet tension for .452-4 cast bullets, and requires less effort to size and expand.”

the rest of his post is equally very helpful.

 

“This makes the press run smoother, and works brass less as well. 

 

Personally, I only neck size fired cases, adjusting the sizer so it resizes the part of the brass where the bullet seats, but not the lower aspect. 

 

Question: What dies will work?

If you already have .45 ACP dies, and don't care to get Hornady dies, your ACP dies will work, together with your .45 Colt shell plate. 

 

BUT, there are ways to make "better" ammo by using a bit more intelligent die setup. 

 

Since we are loading for .45 COLT chambers, which are notoriously roomy (the old SAAMI numbers are sloppy, and chambers cut to SAAMI max are prone to burnt powder blow-by) we need to think about the actual dimensions of our cases if the goal is to limit blow-by, especially at typical CAS levels. 

 

The Cowboy .45 Special has much less blow-by at middle of the road CAS loads, but if you like em reallly light, or load with BP or subs, read on. 

 

One way to help reduce blow-by at low velocity levels is to use a .45 COLT sizer die instead of the slightly smaller ACP sizing die. 

 

Even better is what is known as "neck sizing" our fired brass. 

 

When a case is fired it expands and "bounces" back part way, ending up a few thousanths bigger than "resized" brass. 

 

Since we are working with very roomy chambers, we can leave the brass in the "as fired" state, sizing ONLY the case neck where the bullet seats, and sizing that only as much as needed to get decent neck tension on the bullet. 

 

Typical pistol dies are designed to "full length size", but can be set up to partially resize or "neck size". 

 

To do this, take a .45 Colt sizing die and adjust it so that the decapping pin JUST knocks out the spent primer. 

 

Note how close the die mouth is to the shell plate. 

 

Most often it is still going to resize more than half of the case. 

 

Now, loosen the collet holding the decapping pin, and using a small drift, push the decapping pin about .150 below the top of the die such that only the bottom portion of the collet holds the pin, and retighten the collet. 

 

Now adjust the die until it JUST knocks out the old primer, and note how much of the case is up inside the die. 

 

Likely you can get the die adjusted to a point where ONLY the case mouth is resized (the area that grabs the bullet) and no further. 

 

Now, as long as you can reliably knock out old primers and you're resizing the top .200 in. or so of the case neck, you've done all the sizing CAS brass needs. 

 

Load a few fired, neck sized cases with your favorite bullets and make sure they chamber ok in your pistols (mine do with ease) and compare the diameter of the loaded once fired, neck sized cases to those which have been full length resized. 

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

OK.  PLUS ONE for Eyesa

 

There are a bunch of folks loading the C45S and many are "not quite optimum".  The 45 ACP sizing die imparts a slight taper to the case.  this slight taper, that WILL NOT SEAL the chamber will result in excess Blow-By.  Perhaps not a huge problem for pistols but not real good if used in rifles.  The optimum Dies are 45 colt resize die (set to neck size is VERY good).  45 Colt thru powder/expander die.  45 ACP seater die with the punch reversed for flat nose bullets (DO NOT USE THE TAPER CRIMP).  I personally recommend and use the Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp die for a good solid crimp).  The complete, referenced Hornady die set works very well.  I load on a Dillon 650 and my primary dies are Dillon, except my Redding crimp die.  My biggest CAVEATS are DO NOT USE a 45 ACP sizer nor a taper Crimp.

 

My personal bullet choice for rifles has been a 160Gr RNFP for my Henry Trapper.  For my hand guns I load the 130Gr Barnstormer.  The Henry Trapper I load for is an OEM 16inch barrel trapper and needs real short cartridges to load 10.  Your Mileage May Vary 

[Tall John]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

OK.  PLUS ONE for Eyesa

 

There are a bunch of folks loading the C45S and many are "not quite optimum".  The 45 ACP sizing die imparts a slight taper to the case.  this slight taper, that WILL NOT SEAL the chamber will result in excess Blow-By.  Perhaps not a huge problem for pistols but not real good if used in rifles.  The optimum Dies are 45 colt resize die (set to neck size is VERY good).  45 Colt thru powder/expander die.  45 ACP seater die with the punch reversed for flat nose bullets (DO NOT USE THE TAPER CRIMP).  I personally recommend and use the Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp die for a good solid crimp).  The complete, referenced Hornady die set works very well.  I load on a Dillon 650 and my primary dies are Dillon, except my Redding crimp die.  My biggest CAVEATS are DO NOT USE a 45 ACP sizer nor a taper Crimp.

 

My personal bullet choice for rifles has been a 160Gr RNFP for my Henry Trapper.  For my hand guns I load the 130Gr Barnstormer.  The Henry Trapper I load for is an OEM 16inch barrel trapper and needs real short cartridges to load 10.  Your Mileage May Vary 

my understanding is that the 130gr Barnstormer bullets are not currently available from commercial sources unless we can convince Slippery to make a run.  Is this correct?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

It is my information that Slippery Bullets is the current holder of the Molds.  I do not know what their status is.  I would hope Slippery will continue to make them available.

[Eyesa Horg]

Last I spoke with Slippery, he was working on getting possibly more molds. To run only 2 isn't real productive so he needs to run them with something else and then sort them back out. I would expect he will get it done. Probably best to contact him and see if he's taking any orders even if small for now.

I'm currently using his 167s in my C45S.

[Tall John]

I sent him an email last night.  We’ll see…

[Cemetery]

18 minutes ago, Tall John said:

I sent him an email last night.  We’ll see…

I got a bag of 500 Barnstormers from him this past Spring. 

 

Gonna need another bag of 500.

[Tall John]

I conversed with Slippery via email this afternoon.  As it includes a link to order, I posted the update and a direct link on the classified wire for the Barnstormer 130gr bullets that can be ordered from Slippery Bullets.

[Nickle]

For someone getting into loading c45s why not just buy regular  45 colt dies. Then  grind off whatever you have to off bottom of  seat die and possibly the expander die?

I've done this for 455 mark 1 . I use 45acp dies.

And for 44 Russian is ground off 44 mag dies

The reason I modified these dies was because I already owned them. 

But for c45s if that roll crimp can't  be had with 45acp dies then why not just modify 45 colt die set instead of buying multiple dies 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Some folks do just that.  Fairly common.  I, on the other hand, am lazy and have dedicated tool heads for each cartridge I load on my DILLON 650s.  45 ACP dies aren't optimum for 455.  They work, but aren't optimum. 

[Nickle]

29 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Some folks do just that.  Fairly common.  I, on the other hand, am lazy and have dedicated tool heads for each cartridge I load on my DILLON 650s.  45 ACP dies aren't optimum for 455.  They work, but aren't optimum. 

What I found with  short cases and shorter the more of a bigger deal this is. Example 455 mark11.

It also depends on bore and  chamber sizes.  I bought a case neck  reamer so I could fit larger cast bullets in my chambers but holy crap what I found was huge differences in brass case thicknesses. 

Enough differences that some cases before reamed was sizing my cast bullets down when I was seating them in the case. The undersized bullets would then cause flyers. 

This is in antiques with barrels bigger than 0.451 that I'm seating 454 inch or 457 round balls. 

I use 45 colt and 45 cowboy special to make the brass for these other cartridges  but when you cut the brass shorter I'm finding huge difference in case thicknesses. 

I haven’t tried it yet on uncut c45s but it might be worth looking into if trying to get accuracy past 10 yard cowboy action range.

Crimping either taper or roll hasn't really made any difference for me.

Accuracy has been more about getting a bigger diameter bullet into the chambers or using heavy loads to bump up the bullets to fit the barrels. 

But I'm shooting old antiques 

[Griff]

I load on a Dillon 550, tho' my main die sets are RCBS.  For the C45S I use a Carbide 45 Colt sizer/decapper die in station 1, then I use Dillons flow thru expander with the powder die set to ACP length to impart just the right amount of flair to the case for bullet seating, in station 3 I use an RCBS 45ACP/45AutoRim/45Gap, ROLL CRIMP die, p/n: 18942.  For cowboy I load a 160 grain RFN for handguns, (when & if I deign to shoot those gay, silly, suppository guns), & rifle, (either an 1873 or 1860 with the Cowboy Shop carrier installed.  For WB, I load the 200 grain RFN for the Marlin 1894 with a modified carrier per Widowmaker's instructions @ Making a Widdermajic Marlin.

 

I keep three toolheads set up individually for C45S, 45Auto, & 45 Colt.  The only adjustments needed with setting up to load a particular cartridge is the bullet seater.  To ease that process, I keep a dummy round in the original die box for each bullet I load in the that cartridge.  So, in the 45 Colt box, I have dummy rounds for 160, 180, 185, 200, 225, 230, 250, & 255 weight bullets.  Fewer in the 45Auto box and fewer in the C45S box.  (Yes, I remarked an original RCBS box to be consistent where I keep my dummy rounds).   

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

NICKLE

 

The reason 45 ACP dies are not optimum for C45S is the ACP resizing dies impart a slight taper to the cases.  the taper reduces the diameter of the case mouth and would contribute to your difficulty seating your bullets.  The case taper also contributes to excess Blow-By in the chambers.  Standard 45 Colt resize dies are a much better option and do not impart a taper to the case.

 

All straight wall pistol cases increase in case thickness as you go down from the case mouth.  Some, more than others as you have found.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

57 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

NICKLE

 

The reason 45 ACP dies are not optimum for C45S is the ACP resizing dies impart a slight taper to the cases.  the taper reduces the diameter of the case mouth and would contribute to your difficulty seating your bullets.  The case taper also contributes to excess Blow-By in the chambers.  Standard 45 Colt resize dies are a much better option and do not impart a taper to the case.

 

All straight wall pistol cases increase in case thickness as you go down from the case mouth.  Some, more than others as you have found.

Would you mind explaining how a carbide ring in a sizing die puts a taper on a case? Most all die makers today sell carbide dies for the ACP cartridge. Those dies have a carbide ring inserted in the base. That ring doesn’t change size as the case is inserted. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

From what I've seen the 45acp sizing die reduces the full length diameter of the case to .476.  The dimensions call for .476 base and .473 neck.  But the .476 sizing still provides enough neck tension. So not actually tapering the case.

 

Using the same sizing die on 45 Colt or Cowboy special cases also reduces the full length case diameter to .476. The difference is that 45 Colt dimensions are .480 at base and neck. That is where your blow by comes from.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well, contrary to popular belief, especially mine, there does appear to be a slight taper even with carbide dies.

 

In my situation, I was getting some extreme stretching of brass when reloading the .460 S&W mag brass.

Soooooo, I sent RCBS an email and their reply was that the OPENING of a carbide die was actually larger (greater

in diameter)than the inside upper edge of the carbide piece.   Please note:  this was in reference to my .460 dies.

 

If you want to know if your particular CARBIDE die is actually straight or taper, measure your brass at the case mouth and also

about 5/8 inch back.   Then, resize just the upper 5/8 inch of your brass to see if the dimensions are the same.....OR

to see if there is an actual taper built into your carbide die.

 

Of course, mileage varies.   But atleast you will know more about your own die, versus other die sets.

 

..........WIdder

 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Well, contrary to popular belief, especially mine, there does appear to be a slight taper even with carbide dies.

 

In my situation, I was getting some extreme stretching of brass when reloading the .460 S&W mag brass.

Soooooo, I sent RCBS an email and their reply was that the OPENING of a carbide die was actually larger (greater

in diameter)than the inside upper edge of the carbide piece.   Please note:  this was in reference to my .460 dies.

 

If you want to know if your particular CARBIDE die is actually straight or taper, measure your brass at the case mouth and also

about 5/8 inch back.   Then, resize just the upper 5/8 inch of your brass to see if the dimensions are the same.....OR

to see if there is an actual taper built into your carbide die.

 

Of course, mileage varies.   But atleast you will know more about your own die, versus other die sets.

 

..........WIdder

 

If all or most of that cartridge case is pushed through the smallest diameter of that carbide, it’s gonna be sized that diameter. Obviously brass is somewhat malleable and can spring back but a carbide sizing die ring will not put a taper on a case over the whole length.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

56 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Well, contrary to popular belief, especially mine, there does appear to be a slight taper even with carbide dies.

 

In my situation, I was getting some extreme stretching of brass when reloading the .460 S&W mag brass.

Soooooo, I sent RCBS an email and their reply was that the OPENING of a carbide die was actually larger (greater

in diameter)than the inside upper edge of the carbide piece.   Please note:  this was in reference to my .460 dies.

 

If you want to know if your particular CARBIDE die is actually straight or taper, measure your brass at the case mouth and also

about 5/8 inch back.   Then, resize just the upper 5/8 inch of your brass to see if the dimensions are the same.....OR

to see if there is an actual taper built into your carbide die.

 

Of course, mileage varies.   But atleast you will know more about your own die, versus other die sets.

 

..........WIdder

 

 

Everything above the upper edge of the carbide piece would be sized smaller then the small part of the brass at the  very bottom that might barely enter the carbide sizer.  How brass reacts to the sizing ring may be slightly different depending on the brass wall thickness. We know that commonly it's thinner at the neck and thicker as it nears the base.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

3 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

If all or most of that cartridge case is pushed through the smallest diameter of that carbide, it’s gonna be sized that diameter. Obviously brass is somewhat malleable and can spring back but a carbide sizing die ring will not put a taper on a case over the whole length.

 

2 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

Everything above the upper edge of the carbide piece would be sized smaller then the small part of the brass at the  very bottom that might barely enter the carbide sizer.  How brass reacts to the sizing ring may be slightly different depending on the brass wall thickness. We know that commonly it's thinner at the neck and thicker as it nears the base.

 

True and true.

In my 460, which is an extreme example, I was trying to resize just the upper 1/3 of the case to help eliminate excessive stretching.

 

That was the reason I contacted RCBS and only conveyed what they told me.   According the RCBS, the dimensions of a carbide die

used for a straight wall case can vary from the entry to the upper end of its sizing process.   Like many, I was surprised with this

revelation.

 

..........Widder

 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

6 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

True and true.

In my 460, which is an extreme example, I was trying to resize just the upper 1/3 of the case to help eliminate excessive stretching.

 

That was the reason I contacted RCBS and only conveyed what they told me.   According the RCBS, the dimensions of a carbide die

used for a straight wall case can vary from the entry to the upper end of its sizing process.   Like many, I was surprised with this

revelation.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, 

I understand what you’re saying. I understand what RCBS told you. Even in the picture I posted above you can see that taper in the carbide part. 
What I’m saying is everything that is pushed through that smallest diameter portion of that carbide is sized to that diameter. The whole length won’t be tapered. The very small length of brass that is not pushed completely through will, or should, be tapered to match. 
What was implied earlier was the case, from case mouth to case base, would be tapered.  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I've personally never owned a set of Carbide 45 ACP dies.  Widder tried to explain what RCBS related to him.  You apparently don't want to accept that.  OK.  Don't.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I've personally never owned a set of Carbide 45 ACP dies.  Widder tried to explain what RCBS related to him.  You apparently don't want to accept that.  OK.  Don't.

Apparently, you missed when I said I understand what he and RCBS said.

 

 

 

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Sounds as if the carbide sizing ring is slightly larger at the entry point then at the top final portion. Probably to aid in the case smoothly entering the die similar to belling a case before seating the bullet. 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

7 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Sounds as if the carbide sizing ring is slightly larger at the entry point then at the top final portion. Probably to aid in the case smoothly entering the die similar to belling a case before seating the bullet. 

Exactly!

[Griff]

Hmmm... I wonder if the brass thickness has some effect on the sizing of said brass... might the thinner neck portion exhibit less "spring back" after passing thru the sizing ring than the thicker lower wall section.  Might be a good question for an engineering type... (which fortunately I'm not)!  Frankly, it's too cold outside to head to the barn and measure my dies, then size some brass for measuring... maybe later... like later next year!

 

Thunk a few before posting & realized that I have some loaded rounds, although not quite a direct comparison as the 45 Auto are loaded with 200 grain RFN and the C45S are loaded with a 160 gr. RFN.  But, both rounds exhibit a very slight "wasp" shape (visible to my artificially aided eye).  The C45S measures .474" outside diameter just below the roll crimp... and .472" below where the bullet is seated.  The 45 Auto measures .471" just below its taper crimp, and .470" below the seated bullet.  Both cartridges are loaded with .452 bullets.  Both are sized with RCBS dies, albeit, die sets designated for the 45 Colt & 45 Auto, (45 ACP for those of you that insist it's called that)!

 

I couldn't tell you if you can expect more fouling with the C45S sized in a 45 Auto vs. a 45 Colt sizing die, as I've not loaded the C45S with anything but a 45 Colt sizer.  If you're not a BP shooter, it probably won't amount to a hill of beans.  But, if you are... it could be substantial.    

 

Wait again...  just in case you want some irrelevant information, I did find some C45S loaded with a 200 grain bullet... The Speer "Flying Ashtray", their p/n 4477, a .451" JHP.  These were loaded in cut down 45 Colt nickel cases.  They measure .480" just below the roll crimp and .475-6" below the base of the bullet.  And, NO you can't have any of my stash of these bullets!