Smokeless vs BP Sub?

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

I recently aquired some loaded 45-70 roulds.  They are either smokless(with no load data other than 405grain projectile) and BP Sub (again no load data just bullet weight) 

 

If I take these to the range to "unload" them in my handy rifle, do I need to be concerned with shooting both the smokeless and BP subs without significant cleaning of the barrel?  

 

Not knowing the loads, these will be emptied and loaded to match my 130 year old trapdoor needs. 

 

 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Personally, not knowing the load, I’d use a bullet puller…

[Slow Poke]

You dont want to shoot smokeless after any black powder. It hardens the fouling. That was my experience I shot 777 the smokeless and the fouling was horrible to try to clean out.

[Sedalia Dave]

36 minutes ago, Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 said:

I recently aquired some loaded 45-70 roulds.  They are either smokless(with no load data other than 405grain projectile) and BP Sub (again no load data just bullet weight) 

 

If I take these to the range to "unload" them in my handy rifle, do I need to be concerned with shooting both the smokeless and BP subs without significant cleaning of the barrel?  

 

Not knowing the loads, these will be emptied and loaded to match my 130 year old trapdoor needs. 

 

 

 

Unless you trust the person that loaded them with your life. Pull the bullets and use the powder to fertilize your plants.

 

If you are not going to try and reuse the bullets the easiest way to pull them is to remove the die from your press, insert the case onto the ram and poke it up through the hole. Grab the bullet with vice grips or a large set of wire cutters and use the ram to pull the bullet out of the case.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I would NOT shoot them!

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

Personally, I would not shoot them, I would disassemble, discard powder as fertilizer and reuse other components for loading my own recipe.  But if you do decide to shoot them, shoot the smokeless then the BP subs but shoot them at your own risk.  There are many unknown variables that could go wrong in shooting someone else's load.  Just my .02 cents.  Be safe and good luck. 

[El Chapo]

To answer your question, there is really no need to clean with BP subs and you can shoot them if you want.  I can shoot a whole match and not clean my rifle and it'll still run.  APP does crud up the guns a lot more because there's 16 grains instead of 3 grains of powder in the case, so a lot more is burned with each shot, but it's not like black powder where it'll crud up the gun until it doesn't run.

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Personally, not knowing the load, I’d use a bullet puller…

THIS ^^^^^^^^

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

I should have stated the the Smokeless is "factory" but does lack info. 

The BP Sub loads were handloads. 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

@Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966  Something for you to ponder.  The 45-70 cartridge is one of the most versatile cartridges in existence. It can be down loaded to velocities that equal a 45 Colt. It can also be loaded to chamber pressures that only a Ruger #1  can safely handle.

 

BTW those Ruger #1 loads kill on one end and maim on the other.

[Sedalia Dave]

5 minutes ago, Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 said:

I should have stated the the Smokeless is "factory" but does lack info. 

The BP Sub loads were handloads. 

 

 

I would still pull the bullets. Loaded incorrectly BP subs can generate dangerous chamber pressures.

Edited November 25, 2025 by Sedalia Dave

[Griff]

General rule of thumb... don't store factory loads in anything but their original box.  That way, even 50 years later, it can still be identified.  (Maybe longer depending on storage conditions).  2nd general rule of thumb... especially if you're intent on keeping yours... don't shoot someone elses' reloads!  SD gave excellent advice on the safest method to disassemble loaded rounds.  I never worry about disfiguring cast bullets... they just go back in the pot for another trip thru a mold!

[Scarlett]

Shoot them separately. Shoot smokeless first and then clean the bore the shoot the BP sub. If it’s APP it should be fine. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett
 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

If you absolutely, positively feel you "must" shoot them, Scarlett's advice is right there.  However:  Since you have absolutely NO data on any of them, I would absolutely positively NOT shoot them.  Pull the bullets, fertilize the garden, have the bullets melted down and re-cast.  Much much more important keeping your hands and face as originally issued.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

.45-70 creates some unique issues that no other round has.

First of all, there are basically 3 versions of it.

1.  Trapdoor safe loads
2.  Winchester 1886 loads
3.  Ruger #1 loads.

While I don't own a Ruger, I do own a Trapdoor and a Winchester.  ALL of my .45-70 ammo is loaded to Trapdoor safe levels.  I just don't want to risk a problem.   Unless you have one of those Rugers, I'd get out the bullet puller and pull the bullets, dispose of the powder, and reload them to known levels.   You just have no way of knowing what the reloads of have been reloaded too.

As far as Factory ammo goes, believe it or not, SOME factory ammo is rated as being "Trapdoor safe."  There will be a note on the box, "For use on all rifles" or something similar to indicate this.  If that note is not on the box, you must assume it'll blow up a Trapdoor, and not fire it in one.   And that assumes that the factory ammo is really factory ammo, and in its original box.   Just too many variables, in my opinion.   Pull 'em apart, discard the powder and do up your proper load.

By the way, there are of course other guns that fit into the above categories.   A Remington Rolling Block needs Trapdoor safe loads.  A Marlin or other lever gun can handle Winchester loads, but I'd still only give 'em Trapdoor level stuff.  (Partly for the recoil!)  I do not know if anything other than the Ruger can handle those kind of loads, and I'd have no desire to find out. 

 

Good luck!

  

[watab kid]

i always load to trapdoor levels for safety sake , i never shoot others repoads unless i was there during the loading , i always assume the unknown is unsafe 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

No.

Stop.

Do Not Shoot Period.

You have been warned ⚠️ 

Proceed as you see fit .

Rooster 

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

Mixing residue is messy, I decided not to do it again.

I would assume that there are some of each in the handloads.  I have made such assumptions with my own collection of ammo at times.  Once I lose track of a bag of ammo I can no longer be sure.  When I bagged it for a specific purpose I was sure that I’d use it before I forgot but… something came up.  So they sit waiting for me.

So back to your question Nutmeg. I might keep the factory in case I had a need for it later.  I know I’d probably never buy any.  Then shoot the BP in a good modern rifle if I was comfortable with the loading and sorting capabilities of the source.  Otherwise I’d pull it.

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

From my past experience of shooting someone else's 44-40 reloads resulted with multiple bulges in the barrel of my 66. It ended up getting a new barrel. That said pull the bullets apart dump the powder.  I have an original Trapdoor carbine which I load with 50 gr of real ff BP with 405 gr bullets which works well for me.

 

 

Hochbauer