Classic Cowboy Caliber question

[Stockyards Slim]

I've been wondering the reason why in Classic Cowboy the Revolver/Rifle calibers need to be .40 cal. or larger? I can understand why calibers like .357 or .38 SPL wouldn't be desirable due to historical accuracy (I.e., they weren't around in the 1880's), but .38 LC was intoduced in 1875 so it cou.ld be historically accurate and can't be just about projectile diameter since .36 cap & ball is allowed. Is it because there were only revolvers in .38 LC and no rifles in .38 LC?

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

On 11/15/2025 at 8:21 AM, Stockyards Slim said:

I've been wondering the reason why in Classic Cowboy the Revolver/Rifle calibers need to be .40 cal. or larger? I can understand why calibers like .357 or .38 SPL wouldn't be desirable due to historical accuracy (I.e., they weren't around in the 1880's), but .38 LC was intoduced in 1875 so it cou.ld be historically accurate and can't be just about projectile diameter since .36 cap & ball is allowed. Is it because there were only revolvers in .38 LC and no rifles in .38 LC?

Hi Stockyards Slim

Don't know how I  missed seeing your question before now.  Classic Cowboy became a new category in 2003 the year I joined SASS.  I started shooting Classic in 2004 and had to get all new firearms to meet the requirements (darn what a shame ).  Attached is the listing of categories from my 2002 Handbook I got upon joining and my 2004 Handbook the next one I got.  Then the 2003 requirements for the Classics that I got of the internet.

 

Before it was offically adopted there were several clubs around the country offering something similar which led to the new category.  The same thing happened when B-Western was added later.  I am sure that a committee selected by the Wild Bunch (or maybe just them) looked at what had been used by these clubs and determined what the requirements would be for the new categories being adopted.  You will notice that there are no age based categories shown in 2002 or 2004 and the listed Modern and Traditional categories no longer exist.  Those went away when replaced with age based categories.  The Classic category besides having certain costume requirements also added specific firearm and holster requirements.  I understand that some wanted specific costume items required but instead they included a list to choose from and a certain number that had to be worn.

 

The rifle had to be a model 1873 or earlier, the shotgun must be either a double with exposed hammers or an 1887 lever and the revolvers had to be a minimum caliber and the reference to tradtional meant no adjustble sights (that was a difference between the tradtional and modern catergory).  Most likely the requirements of the earlier clubs was they had to be greater than .38 caliber since that was what the average shooter was currently using at that time and they wanted the category to be special.  So SASS chose .40 caliber, which is what I chose as my caliber and changed to 38-40 from my .38s I was using at the time.  I also had to change from my 1894 Marlin rifle and my 1897 pump shotgun.  Bet the .36 caliber cap and ball was allowed because it was not as simple as the cartridge revolvers.

Scout

 

2002 Handbook

2004 Handbook

2003 rules for Classic

Edited November 22, 2025 by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Here's the problem Slim.  NONE of the crew that made SASS decisions at that time are currently involved.  Those decisions were made by The Wild Bunch.  Speculation is kind of a waste because currently, it is what it is.  It's that simple.  Thing to remember, SASS is a game, Wholly owned by SASS.  SASS Game, SASS Rules, and ALL the rules were made by The Wild Bunch.

[Indy Kid, SASS #4638]

I had been shooting SASS almost 10 years when Classic Cowboy was introduced. Many competitors (myself included)  were moving from the big bore 38-40 / 45 Colt bore guns to 38 spl for the reduced recoil and the resulting increased speed.  Classic Cowboy gave those wanting to compete with the big bore guns a class were they could be competitive.

[T-Square]

Big Bore, Big Smoke, Great Gear !  Only 222 days until my chaps arrive !! (inside joke between Cowtown and I).

[Griff]

Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl, evolved from what used to be a specific costume contest.  It was judged by past winners and wasn't necessarily about shooting prowess, but about looking the part of a working cowboy/cowgirl .  It was "Working Cowboy/Cowgirl. and based on the costumes the competitors wore while shooting.   Some of those that were so honored, didn't even know they were being considered.  They competed while simply fully immersed themselves in the look and timbre of a working cowboy and competed in their chosen category.  Many of those that wanted the Classic Cowboy category thought it should also include a requirement for BP... but that would have cut the number of interested folks pretty drastically.  As I recall discussions leading up the creation it was really felt that a "big bore" requirement would keep the flavor of a working cowhand and less about an overall competitive feel.  Much like Frontiersman.  It's less about competition, and more about the firearms.  It's an attitude about putting constraints on yourself and strive to be competitive with those constraints.

 

SASS is not a historical re-enactment... it's a western fantasy.  To many participants, it's a costume party where a shooting match broke out.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

As I remember, most of the ??? rules came about because of the 'gamers' that loved to follow the if it's not specifically illegal, I'm doing it!

 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

2 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

As I remember, most of the ??? rules came about because of the 'gamers' that loved to follow the if it's not specifically illegal, I'm doing it!

 

Since this is a “game” anyone that shoots it is a gamer…

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Holy Guacamole Compadres!!  I just took a glance at Griff's SASS number.  He were around and playing the game way back when.  Wowzers.  Whoda Thunkit!!

 

A much more elaborate and informative explanation than mine.  In depth background is always some better than "it is what it is."  So, a big Thank You to Griff for being able to remember that far back!!  Wheeeeeeeeeeee

[Whitey James]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a new category. "Historic Cowboy" for those who want the most realistic experience.

Original BP cartridges and/or muzzle loaders only. 

No modern revolvers such as the Ruger, only true reproductions.

No short stroked kits, drop 2 mods, etc. pure factory.

The problem would be that I don't think enough people would want to shoot like that being most people are concerned with speed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Leroy Luck]

22 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a new category. "Historic Cowboy" for those who want the most realistic experience.

 

Check out NCOWS

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Whitey: I know I wouldn't, I would have to buy a compete new set of guns. I shoot Classic Cowboy a few times a year, sometimes Duelist, sometimes just Cowboy, but always with BP. Why not just have a  Classic Cowboy BP, that would do most of what you want.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

33 minutes ago, Whitey James said:

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a new category. "Historic Cowboy" for those who want the most realistic experience.

Original BP cartridges and/or muzzle loaders only. 

No modern revolvers such as the Ruger, only true reproductions.

No short stroked kits, drop 2 mods, etc. pure factory.

The problem would be that I don't think enough people would want to shoot like that being most people are concerned with speed.

 

 

 

 

 

You do realize that gunsmiths were doing all sorts of modifications as far back as the 1840’s? 
While not 100% period, gunsmiths were short stroking single action revolvers in the 19teens. Browning, Gove, Fruend brothers were doing cartridge conversions, barrel changes in the 1870s. Carlos Gove was converting rolling blocks to an under lever. 
Bat Masterson ordered a single action revolver from Colt with special sights and a tuned trigger in the 1880s. 
And this is a speed game. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a timer… 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Whitey James said:

The problem would be that I don't think enough people would want to shoot like that being most people are concerned with speed.

 

 

 

 

 

You’d be right on the first part of your statement, and you’d be wrong on the second part. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 hours ago, Whitey James said:

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a new category. "Historic Cowboy" for those who want the most realistic experience.

Original BP cartridges and/or muzzle loaders only. 

No modern revolvers such as the Ruger, only true reproductions.

No short stroked kits, drop 2 mods, etc. pure factory.

The problem would be that I don't think enough people would want to shoot like that being most people are concerned with speed.

 

 

Well, for the most part, I kinda shoot that way now.   My guns are stock, for the most part.  I have only had action work done on guns that were so bad out of the box that they needed something done to make them usable.   Even then, the work has been minimal; I like my guns either stock, or as close as possible to it.   I don't do short strokes, drop 2s, or other such stuff.   I don't own a single Ruger, and while I do have some clones, I mostly shoot Colts.   I do shoot smokeless most of the time.  And oddly, .38 Special/.357 Magnum are just about the only common calibers that I don't have any SASS guns chambered for.   For some reason, is the CAS context, the calibers don't interest me.   But I do shoot various .32 and (other) .38 caliber guns for gun now and again.

And, I know I am not the only guy who shoots this way.   Yes, we are something of a rarity, but we do exist.  And, I don't think there is a need for a special category for us.   No, I am not concerned with speed, but I have FUN shooting my old fashioned guns the way they were designed.   I know I'll probably never win whatever category I shoot in, but CAS is the most fun types of shooting I've ever done, and that's the important part. 
 

I do try for a clean match every time, that's my personal goal.

If I wanted to see other "categories" I'd rather see more unofficial stuff like Josey Wales where you shoot in a manner not typical of the normal way.  There are lotsa possibilities there; but that's the topic for another thread.

 

As far as Classic Cowboy caliber restrictions go, considering how the category came to be, it makes sense.  Among other things, it was thought of as a "big bore" category.  Given that context, the .40+ makes sense.  So that means .38-40, which is a really a .40 caliber round, or .41 Colt would be the minimums.   Works for me.  

 

Edited November 22, 2025 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Three Foot Johnson]

Because nobody ever created a game without rules. Well except Calvinball. And politics.

 

Hey, a new SASS alias - Calvin Ball! 

 

OK, probably because the historical classic cowboy standard was a .44-40 rifle and a .45 Colt revolver. John Wayne, Matt Dillon, Tom Mix, Gene Autry, Gary Cooper, etc.

[Griff]

20 hours ago, Griff said:

SASS is not a historical re-enactment... it's a western fantasy.  To many participants, it's a costume party where a shooting match broke out.

And... I forgot to add... heavily influenced by Hollywierd.    And if you need proof:  From the 3rd paragraph of the 1989 SHB:

Quote

Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.

 

[El Sobrante Kid]

29 minutes ago, Griff said:

And... I forgot to add... heavily influenced by Hollywierd.    And if you need proof:  From the 3rd paragraph of the 1989 SHB:

Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.

 

Which, in 1989, was only 5-1/2 pages long. My how things have changed.    OOPS, my bad!

Edited November 23, 2025 by El Sobrante Kid
incorrect info

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

7 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Whitey: I know I wouldn't, I would have to buy a compete new set of guns. 

Ant the problem is?  Kinda sounds like its own reward

[Griff]

10 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

Which, in 1989, was only 5-1/2 pages long. My how things have changed.

Ixnay... it was actually 20 pages... not including the table of contents!

Quote

Mainly, SASS wants our participants to be safe, have fun, develop their competitive shooting skills and enjoy the rich traditions of the Old West. We ask that you join us in the friendly spirit of competition and preservation of heritage that we intend.
SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING SOCIETY
1820 East Diana Avenue
Anaheim, CA 92805
20

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

9 minutes ago, Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 said:

Ant the problem is?  Kinda sounds like its own reward

As stated in my post I did buy a whole new set of guns and it was Great doing it. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

The .38;special was introduced in 1898 by S&W. Just sayin’……………..

Edited November 23, 2025 by Rye Miles #13621

[watab kid]

On 11/21/2025 at 8:22 PM, T-Square said:

Big Bore, Big Smoke, Great Gear !  Only 222 days until my chaps arrive !! (inside joke between Cowtown and I).

why 222 days ? my gal did mine up in short order 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

17 hours ago, Griff said:

And... I forgot to add... heavily influenced by Hollywierd. 

Which is why I have always believed that a "Hollywierd Henry" should be legal for B Western.

Ooo OOO OOOO!

Forget a 92 rifle with the forestock removed and the receiver "brassed."

How about a brassed Lightning with the wooden pump handle removed?  That'd be weird indeed!

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

We had a club up tombstone way that offered a Frontier cartridge classic cowboy class at their big match, what a blast for a few of us that ventured in. But I mostly shot frontier cartridge wearing all the required gear that CC requires anyway. Too bad that club folded

Rafe

[Cinch]

Classic was  to be more like Gus. The rest of CAS is comprised of a bunch of July Johnson’s. 
 

 

 

[Griff]

6 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Which is why I have always believed that a "Hollywierd Henry" should be legal for B Western.

Ooo OOO OOOO!

Forget a 92 rifle with the forestock removed and the receiver "brassed."

How about a brassed Lightning with the wooden pump handle removed?  That'd be weird indeed!

Why wouldn't it be...  from the SHB,  Ver 27.9, page 8: 

Quote

- Rifles: Any SASS legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (e.g., Burgess, Lightning Rifle, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).

How many movies can you name where a '92 masqueraded as a Henry?  Can't remember one with a Lightning... but surely... there's a cinematic precedent?

[Three Foot Johnson]

They used them a lot in Bonanza and Gunsmoke.

[Stockyards Slim]

Many thanks to Scout and all the other folks who weighed in on this one and help satisfy my curiosity. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

On 11/22/2025 at 7:24 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The .38;special was introduced in 1898 by S&W. Just sayin’……………..

The original loading was 21-grains of black powder with a 158-grain bullet.  This is serviceable load for the Frontier Cartridge categories today. The SASS Handbook specially calls out the 38 special cartridge as legal the Plainsman match.  

[Griff]

On 11/22/2025 at 8:24 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The .38;special was introduced in 1898 by S&W. Just sayin’……………..

On 11/24/2025 at 9:14 AM, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

The original loading was 21-grains of black powder with a 158-grain bullet.  This is serviceable load for the Frontier Cartridge categories today. The SASS Handbook specially calls out the 38 special cartridge as legal the Plainsman match.  

The word "Classic" is often used in reference to those items that would be considered iconic in form and function.  It infers a certain "mystique" or evokes a feeling that about things that don't exist anymore..  127 years after its' introduction, we might consider the .38 Special a classic cartridge... but at time, it was a thoroughly modern cartridge.  Nothing Classic about it.  I strongly suggest that even a year later, the year for which we cut off guns and their design, it still wouldn't have been considered a classic.*   Why, it ain't even a .38 caliber!  My .36 caliber 1851 shoots larger, if not heavier projectiles!    And... what pray tell, does Plainsman have to do with a discussion about Classic Cowboy?  I have no idea of the thinking** that went into the formation of that side match... but love the fact that "traditional black powder revolver cartridges" are legal... especially since I adore my 1885 in 45 Colt!

 

*  My '55 Chevy is a "Classic"... I considered it such when I bought it in 1968... but, I can guarantee you that it wasn't a "Classic" in 1956!  

 

**  But... if I were to hazard a guess, I would think it would be to increase the number of potential entrants.  Or a number of those deciding on the issue had single shots in .38 special!  LOL!  Remember always, "Western Fantasy", vs. "re-enactment".  

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

If Classic Cowboy allowed .38’s we’d get a lot more people shooting that category. Just sayin’………I would most likely do it myself. I would keep the hammer shotgun and 87’s though. Good excuse for me to buy a hammer shotgun 😂😂🤣

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 11/23/2025 at 9:43 PM, Griff said:

Why wouldn't it be...  from the SHB,  Ver 27.9, page 8: 

How many movies can you name where a '92 masqueraded as a Henry?  Can't remember one with a Lightning... but surely... there's a cinematic precedent?

The "arguments" against the Hollywood Henry in B-Western are as follows...

If you make it out of a Winchester 66, which would be the most "accurate" way to make one, you are using a base gun not legal for B-Western.

If you make one out of a 92, you are on more solid ground with the gun.   But some would say that it's either an unapproved external modification, OR you are trying to pretend it's something not legal, a Henry.

As far as using a Henrified 92 goes, I don't have any problem with it being used B-Western.   As far as using a 66 or even a 73 to create a Hollyweird Henry goes, I personally would not care, but I can see why some people might.   

But, I don't shoot B-Western, so I don't know if my opinion counts.

As far as the Henry Lightning goes, hmm...   Maybe instead of removing the pump grip, brass it?  Or just brass the part of the slide you attach the removed pump handle to.

Dang it..   Now I am just getting silly.

[Griff]

Well... since the '66 & '73 are disqualified on the basis of being pre 1880 designs, we need not mention them... but, the Marlin 1894, Winchester 1892 & 94, along with the Colt Lightning and clones thereof, are worthy of inclusion.  Yes, removing the foregrip would be an external alteration... but has anyone asked for a exception for this?   Or... is it necessary?  If the precedent of adding a wooden or leather wrap to an 1860 has been set... is the converse true?  If not, if I shot in B-Western, I'd certainly ask... it seems to tick a number of boxes for that category.  

[J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309]

Classic Cowboy was a category that was developed by San Quinton, SASS # 4818 who was, along with Coyote Calhoun, the ones who put on The Shootout at Mule Camp. The SE Regional SASS Championship..

He offered the Category locally and at Mule Camp and developed the Rules for it.

He presented it at a TG Conference in Vegas, at the Rivera Hotel. It was discussed by the TG's , including Caliber and Firearm Requirements.  The TG's voted to make it an Official Category and SASS Agreed.

 

JM