the name of your language

[Alpo]

Ever think about this?

 

While there are dialects, as a general rule the people in a country speak the language with the same name as the country. The Germans speak German, the French speak French, the Italians speak Italian, the English speak English.

 

Is it the same with the stone age peoples? I say stone age because prior to the arrival of the Europeans they were - the American Indian, the African, the Australian aborigine. Do they have a different name for their language? Do the Cheyenne speak Cheyenne and the Apache speak Apache? Do the Bantus speak Bantu and the Masai speak Masai? Many of the tribes in Africa speaks Swahili, but as far as I know there is no tribe called Swahili. Did they name the language Swahili or did the white men decide that was a good name?

 

All of these different countries - all of these different groups of people - have their group name and their language name be the same. But you go in the future in science fiction, where the human race has gone off into space and they meet the Vulcans and the Klingons and the romulans, and the Vulcans speak Vulcan and the Klingons speak Klingon and the Romulans speak Romulan. But the humans don't speak human.

 

There is a webcomic. I have mentioned it several times before. In this comic there is a second sentient race living here on Earth. They are the Sarnothi. But they don't speak Sarnothi. They speak Tensei. In today's strip the protagonist - a Sarnothi girl - see's two other Sarnothi children, and decides to go say hello. And as she's walking up she is musing - "I wonder if they speak English or just Tensei."

 

That's what caused my ponder. "I wonder why they don't speak Sarnothi?"

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Filipinos speak Tagalog.   Pronounced ta-GAH-lug

[Alpo]

There are always exceptions. The Belgians speak Flemish. Most of the Chinese speak Mandarin. Which is why I said

 

9 minutes ago, Alpo said:

as a general rule the people in a country speak the language with the same name as the country.

But the Russians speak Russian, the Polish speak Polish, the Japanese speak Japanese, the Koreans speak Korean.

[Matthew Duncan]

Stone Age spoke gruntish.

2 minutes ago, Alpo said:

There are always exceptions. The Belgians speak Flemish. Most of the Chinese speak Mandarin. Which is why I said

 

But the Russians speak Russian, the Polish speak Polish, the Japanese speak Japanese, the Koreans speak Korean.

 

And Americans speak...........English

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Stone Age spoke gruntish.

 

And Americans speak...........English

Amerenglish my dad called it...with regional dialects.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

The Japanese speak Engrish as a second language.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

 Maybe the Sarnothi don't have a language of their own, as Matthew Dunkan pointed out, Americans speak English, though not the same English as English people. 

As for the American Indians, (I refuse to say "Native American", I was born here, so I too am a Native American), tribes, I think that they all had their own languages. I know that the names we call them, Navajo, Apache, etc. were not what they called themselves, but are what their enemy tribes called them. They just called themselves, "The People". And all other tribes were considered to be less than People.

[Stump Water]

2 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

And Americans speak...........English

 

On the app for SS benefits that I just finished it asked what language you wanted to communicate in - written and spoken.  Appalachian wasn't a choice.

[Cypress Sun]

 

[Rip Snorter]

2 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

I sat next to a nearly identical pair of guys on a flight.  Amazing.  Also, I discovered on my first visit to the UK in the 70's that I did not speak the King's English.  Later trips were easier!

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

11 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

On the app for SS benefits that I just finished it asked what language you wanted to communicate in - written and spoken.  Appalachian wasn't a choice.

I decided that having an accoun there was not worth the effort.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

YOU might say that the Chinese speak, wait for it....., Chinese/

 

So far from the truth.

 

 

[Stump Water]

11 minutes ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

I decided that having an account there was not worth the effort.

 

What's that mean?

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Just now, Stump Water said:

 

What's that mean?

The information to be obtained is easily computed myself.  Don’t need to create an account to get it.

[Stump Water]

Just now, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

The information to be obtained is easily computed myself.  Don’t need to create an account to get it.

 

Need an account to apply online, though.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

8 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Need an account to apply online, though.

But I don’t need to apply.

Edited November 10 by Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984

[Trailrider #896]

Say what?

[Subdeacon Joe]

From a very quick and dirty search it seems that,  in general,  American Indians called their language "our language" (probably more literally would be "the way people talk").

 

[Alpo]

Some Sci-Fi show I was watching one time. The Earth spacemen have met up with this group on another planet, and they asked them how it was that they spoke English.

 

The other people were confused. "English? What is English? We are speaking language."

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Alpo said:

Some Sci-Fi show I was watching one time. The Earth spacemen have met up with this group on another planet, and they asked them how it was that they spoke English.

 

The other people were confused. "English? What is English? We are speaking language."

 

Since we're  now going down the SiFi rabbit hole, Star Trek TNG,  episode Darmok, if the Tamarians communicate by metaphor, how do they learn the stories in the first place? How do they add new ones,  as happens in the closing scene?

 

 

The Tamarian First Officer, presumably now the captain, gets the tablet and instantly ads, "Picard and Dathon at El Adrel," seeming to automatically know the whole story.   How? And how does it get into their lexicon?

[John Kloehr]

23 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Since we're  now going down the SiFi rabbit hole, Star Trek TNG,  episode Darmok, if the Tamarians communicate by metaphor, how do they learn the stories in the first place? How do they add new ones,  as happens in the closing scene?

 

The Tamarian First Officer, presumably now the captain, gets the tablet and instantly ads, "Picard and Dathon at El Adrel," seeming to automatically know the whole story.   How? And how does it get into their lexicon?

 

He recognizes the tablet contains the new story. Earlier in that episode, there was a discussion about the meaning of a phrase like "Romeo and Juliet on the balcony." Comments included romance, future tragedy, things one would need the story for to have these insights, otherwise the phrase would be gibberish or lose meaning and significance.

 

I took a class once where I realized there was a not-understood significance to a word. When the people marched around Jericho, they blew a ram's horn. Recalling the scholarly opinion the Noah story had two versions (the scribes merged all the different oral stories they collected), one where a dove was released, and one where it was a raven, and one was a bird of peace and other a bird of war/conquest... Is there significance to a ram's horn? Turns out this is a call to repentance. This additional information adds nuance and deepens understanding of the story. In the Bible, there is probably no word which does not carry significance beyond its simple literal meaning.

 

The idea in this episode to have almost all meaning in communication based on significance rather than simple meaning was really quite clever. Hawking, in his chair, at the whiteboard... John Kloehr, with his rifle, at the stable...

Edited November 10 by John Kloehr

[Subdeacon Joe]

25 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

He recognizes the tablet contains the new story. Earlier in that episode, there was a discussion about the meaning of a phrase like "Romeo and Juliet on the balcony." Comments included romance, future tragedy, things one would need the story for to have these insights, otherwise the phrase would be gibberish or lose meaning and significance.

 

I took a class once where I realized there was a not-understood significance to a word. When the people marched around Jericho, they blew a ram's horn. Recalling the scholarly opinion the Noah story had two versions (the scribes merged all the different oral stories they collected), one where a dove was released, and one where it was a raven, and one was a bird of peace and other a bird of war/conquest... Is there significance to a ram's horn? Turns out this is a call to repentance. This additional information adds nuance and deepens understanding of the story. In the Bible, there is probably no word which does not carry significance beyond its simple literal meaning.

 

The idea in this episode to have almost all meaning in communication based on significance rather than simple meaning was really quite clever. Hawking, in his chair, at the whiteboard... John Kloehr, with his rifle, at the stable...

 

 

All well and good.  So he and the crew know the significance, and why it's significant.  How is that lore passed on to the rest of their culture? Re, your Hawking example, if I didn't already know who Hawking is, and what kind of chair, it's meaningless.  An old man, in a tweed jacket with leather elbow patches, in a straight backed wooden chair, diagraming how to judge the greatness of a poem, thereby increasing our enjoyment of it, is as reasonable as anything else.  
Re, John Kloehr, with his rifle, at the stable.  Just so he isn't unstable.  

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

All well and good.  So he and the crew know the significance, and why it's significant.  How is that lore passed on to the rest of their culture? Re, your Hawking example, if I didn't already know who Hawking is, and what kind of chair, it's meaningless.  An old man, in a tweed jacket with leather elbow patches, in a straight backed wooden chair, diagraming how to judge the greatness of a poem, thereby increasing our enjoyment of it, is as reasonable as anything else.  
Re, John Kloehr, with his rifle, at the stable.  Just so he isn't unstable.  

 

That is a question, how is the lore passed if it does not include the significance. Well, it was SciFi, or more specifically Space Opera touching on SciFi. Which right there requires a clarification and context. SciFi assumes some development in the context of science, and explores the ramifications. Space Opera is just a story with space travel.

 

How would a toddler learn "an Egyptian slave, his stomach growling" before "I'm hungry" or "Cheerios!" or... I remember my kid saying "breakfast" to indicate hunger, specifically a request for Malt O Meal. Did take a few days* to figure that out and teach "breakfast," lunch," and "dinner," and expand this too "Malt O Meal for breakfast."

 

As to stable vs unstable... The historic John or me?

 

* Just to not leave a doubt, food was produced at some point with the apparent discomfort, and "breakfast" was a great clue. An earlier pre-language crankiness was not resolved until discovering a thread in in a bootie (knit shoe) was around a toe. not at all saying food was not provided for a few days until the meaning was fully understood.

 

 

 

Edited November 10 by John Kloehr
Come on Otto, "operau" can't possibly be a word.

[watab kid]

it is an interesting topic , i once heard an inebriated woman claim to be speaking cursive - kinda sounded right at the time 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

12 hours ago, watab kid said:

it is an interesting topic , i once heard an inebriated woman claim to be speaking cursive - kinda sounded right at the time 

Illegible cursive?

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Pashto, Flemish, Farsi, Dari, …..

[watab kid]

7 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Illegible cursive?

legible in that you could make out the words but slurred like all the letters connected