1897 questions

[Occidental Anchor]

Okay so my wife was lent an 1897 pump to shoot the match this weekend and she loved it.  Sooooo what momma wants momma gets but I don't know enough about these shotguns.  Thought I would try the easy button here.  What should I be looking for when buying an 1897 for my wife.  Is older better?  Take down vs solid frame? What's is the best barrel length for CAS? What should I avoid?  Looking at gun broker the price spread on these ranges from 500 to well over 2k why?  And maybe one of yall has one sitting in safe collecting dust that needs a new home for CHEAP. 

[Griff]

Ya should know that you'll actually need 3 of 'em, right?  The one's she's using in today's match... a backup to use in tomorrow's match when the 1st one breaks... and a 3rd one at the gunsmith's getting fixed.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Prices have risen sharply due to true Winchester guns now being 80 years old or so many of the safe queens have now been cleared out by sales of estates, and the Chinese copies stopped coming into the country about 15 years ago.  

 

Use a barrel length similar to what your wife liked.  No need to rock the boat.  Smaller frame/lighter muscled people often do better with short (18-20") barrels.

 

Winchester solid frame guns don't suffer from having a loose barrel lockup.

Chinese guns came only in solid frame.  I like the solid frame guns.

 

Before hunting a shotgun, hunt for a 97 gunsmith close to you.   You will have as much need for a gunsmith as you do ammo.  😉   

 

With not having experience with 97s, run any you are thinking of buying through that gunsmith to get his opinion of it as a shooter.  Yeah, I know that is hard to do.  Keeping a 97 ready to run is harder than most other cowboy guns.  GJ

Edited November 9, 2025 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

97s will come with one of three prefix letters stamped over the serial number.  C, D and E.  (See photo.)  Each higher letter has improvements.  I would avoid the C models and look for an E if possible.  The newest 97s are 70 years old.  Part of the reliability issue is people buy junk thinking they can fix them up for competition.  There were over one million made so look for one in as good of condition as you can find.  The better the condition usually means the fewer things that need fixing.

 

P.S.  The days of "for cheap" 97s are long gone.

 

Edited November 9, 2025 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

What Griff said.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

A lot of good info posted above.

 

Knowing or having a good 97 smith is great advice.

All my 97's are Chinese made..... and ALL of them have been checked out by my 97 smith here in E.TN.

 

Having at least 2 good 97's is comforting.    3 or more allows you to use one of them for dry fire practice.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

8 hours ago, Occidental Anchor said:

And maybe one of yall has one sitting in safe collecting dust that needs a new home for CHEAP. 

Oh, if only that worked!  

It wasn't all that long ago, fifteen or twenty years, when $250 could get you one in decent working condition if you kept your eyes open, but things have changed over the past decade or so. Thirteen years ago, I snagged my 4th original for $160 off Gunbroker, but it needed a few parts to get it going, which I probably already had on hand.

Looking at Gunbroker completed auctions, $350-$450 isn't all that uncommon for a mostly functioning gun, but will still need to be stripped, cleaned, inspected, and some worn/missing/broken parts replaced + a cowboy tune-up to make it a smooth, easy shooter. 

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Solid Frame as GJ said is definitely better. 

The take downs have a barrel extension that can often be cracked so watch for that.  Also the adjusting sleeve quite probably will be at its last legs if well used.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Howdy Occ-Anch.

Above is good info but you often can't have a gunsmith check out a gun first.  You might find one at a swapmeet, pawn shop, whatever.  So here is some stuff to look for that I copied off the wire years ago:

 

Posted on SASS WIre by Outlaw Gambler 11-2-11:

When buying from another cowboy you will hope he knows what he is selling another cowboy is in good condition. But to be sure, in addition to the previously listed items, here are a few more.
 1. Look at the bore with a bore light, the older black powder guns had lots of pitting in the barrels and most of it is in the chamber area.
 2. Open the action and with your thumb slowly push the bolt forward, watch the shell flag, it should come up as you slowly push the bolt forward. This is your first line of defense against an out of battery discharge. If the flag doesn't come all the way up when bolt is closed, there is a safety problem.
 3. Open the action and move the end of the bolt up and down and sideways, the rule of thumb is if it moves either way more than a quarter of an inch the rails in the receiver may be worn beyond repair. This will also keep the bolt from cocking the hammer all the way since it will ride up over the top of the hammer.
 4. Look at the hammer, is there excessive wear on the top crown? See last sentence in #3.
 5. If a takedown, hold the barrel and mag tube in one hand and the receiver in the other and try to screw or unscrew them. They should not move.
 6. Put an empty hull in the mag tube and work the action. The action should pick the spent hull out of the tube, it may not chamber it due to it being longer. If not just insert the same hull into the chamber and close the action. Now do two tests, with hammer cocked try to open the action - it should not open but rather be locked in battery. The second test is with hammer down, work the action to be sure the hull is extracted and ejected out of the gun.
 By no way is this a complete test of a 97, it would take too long to describe everything to look for but this will give you an idea of some of the major items. Finish is purely cosmetic and up to the individual. Hope this helps and good luck.

Posted by Pof Fuller Bullspit:
Barrels are measured with a dowel. Mark a dowel at 18". Make sure the gun is unloaded. Close the action and drop the dowel down the barrel. The barrel needs to be longer than the 18" mark.

 On a take down, make sure that the gun is tight, but doesn't have a lot of spacers. You want some room on the takedown adjustment. Also check the mag tube. These can get worn and then they don't stay in place. It is very disconcerting to have your mag tube slid forward as you try to work the action!

 Make sure it will feed dummy shells from the magazine.

 Make sure the flag works. It should not fall down too easily.

 Make sure that the action is locked up before the hammer can fall. Hold the trigger down (gun unloaded) and close the action. If the hammer falls before the action is closed this can be adjusted, but do check.

 Check for cracks in the wrist.

[Lazy Eeyour]

Check out this url. as whatever brand is worn, you do not want this to break. Get a new slide action hook and replace both

https://the-online-outpost-licensing-corporation.myshopify.com/collections/shotgun/products/copy-of-1897-winchester-norinco-iac-shotgun-action-slide-hook-screw-by-the-smith-shop-97

Check the correct option.

[Dred Bob]

20 hours ago, Griff said:

Ya should know that you'll actually need 3 of 'em, right?  The one's she's using in today's match... a backup to use in tomorrow's match when the 1st one breaks... and a 3rd one at the gunsmith's getting fixed.

 

Just started shooting CAS a couple of years ago and I only use the 97 in Wild Bunch.  I've managed to accumulate 3 so far in the hunt for one that works an entire match.  2 Winchesters ( a 1911 solid, a 1930 t/d) and a Norinco.  All 3 were bought at matches from cowboys that told me they were match ready and good reliable match guns.  Not so much.  Most of my problems have been feeding issues from the tube and usually on the first round or last.  They might be entirely reliable manually feeding single rounds in Cowboy.  

 

I'd agree the rule of 3 is a pretty good expectation but I would also suggest that maybe it's actually 4 and that you need a "parts" gun because these things are complicated mechanical nightmares and many of the parts are hard to get or non-existent.  I should give up and move on to a Model 12 but the masochist in me refuses to give up and to be honest part of the fun of Wild Bunch is the euphoria of shooting a stage without an equipment or brain malfunction.   I feel like I earned it when it happens.   It's usually a surprise. 

 

I think the Norinco has the best chance but ran into an issue with 1st round feed.  Might be able to adjust the spring / follower.....  I still need that parts gun.

 

aside from all that I adore the 97' in all it's John Moses Browning glory.  It's a mechanical wonder that amazes me it ever worked let alone over 100 years later and with the abuse of competition and that they were able to manufacture this Escher'esque wonder of mechanical ingenuity over 125 years ago in the 1800's.  It's a genuine piece of history and I love every cycle of the action (that works) during a match.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

My first 97 was a takedown Winchester with a barrel cut to 20"  The stock is stamped WPD, so I believe it is an old police gun.  It letters to 1930, has an E prefix, and was a gift from my brother.   If I recall correctly, the asking price was $400 about 25 years ago.   It is in mechanically great condition.  It was my first SASS Main match shotgun.  It's a takedown

 

My second 97 was a Norinco Trench gun.   It was a gift from my father.  Got it in 2003, and it's a nice shooter.  Don't know what he paid for it.

 

My third 97 has a 30" full choke barrel.  I wanted to have a long barreled 97, just to have one.  But I liked it so much, it became my primary main match shotgun.  Yes, I prefer long shotgun barrels to short ones for some reason.   It has an E prefix and letters to 1909.   It is mechanically sound, but not as tight as the 20" barrel one.  It is a takedown, and I did have to replace the, I don't know what it's called, the adjustable screw in thingee that makes the barrel tight to the frame.  I purchased this one in 2009, and I don't recall what I paid for it.  Knowing how I felt at the time, it was probably $400 or less, but I can't be sure.

My fourth 97 is a Norinco 93/97 made in 2006 that I got in 2011.   Don't recall what I paid for it.

 

My 5th 97 is not a 97.  It's a real Winchester 93 that I got for $280.   Not sure of the exact date of purchase.  Mechanically, it is in excellent condition.  A Prefix, by the way.  It letters to 1895.   Like every 93 I've ever seen, regardless of what it looks like, the mechancis are great.  I don't think this thing has been fired in over a century when I first got it.   I have fired it twice with black power 2.5" shells.  It works great.  30" barrel.

My most recent 97, is another E model, made in 1914 according to its letter.  I got it in 2023 and it set me back $2200.   Why did I spend so much?   Well, it is mechanically perfect, still has a decent finish, and, it's a Black Diamond Trap model.  It obviously has a 30" barrel.   This is now my primary main match shotgun, and gets a lot of stares.

Other than the issue mentioned with my second one, none of these guns have ever given me a lick of trouble.    The 97 is a great gun.
  

[Outlaw Gambler]

Dang, I wrote all that 14 years ago!! Stil good info. However, it is posts like Grifs that are not accurate and misleading. OA, I will be willing to discuss options with you and your wife in a phone conversation. If interested, send me a pm and we can exchange phone numbers. It is a lot easier speaking than typing. Having your wife shooting with you is one of the best things you can accomplish.

Outlaw Gambler & Gamblers Gal, we have over 40 combined years of shooting our same 97's with only one sear replaced.

[Sheriff Dill]

There are some on gunbroker right now. Looked like some model E ones  as well. One listed in classifieds here by Horse Creek Spinks as well. Not sure if it’s what you’re looking for. 

Edited November 10, 2025 by Sheriff Dill

[Eyesa Horg]

Also keep your eyes open for a CB model. The latest and greatest!

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Outlaw Gambler said:

Dang, I wrote all that 14 years ago!! Stil good info. However, it is posts like Grifs that are not accurate and misleading. OA, I will be willing to discuss options with you and your wife in a phone conversation. If interested, send me a pm and we can exchange phone numbers. It is a lot easier speaking than typing. Having your wife shooting with you is one of the best things you can accomplish.

Outlaw Gambler & Gamblers Gal, we have over 40 combined years of shooting our same 97's with only one sear replaced.

At least spell my name right.  It's "Griff", that's with 2 Fs.  And I don't have to combine my experience with anyone's to have 40 years of watchin' folks fuss and fiddle with their '97s.  When I first heard that particular piece of advice... some 40+ years ago, it was said with a certain amount of tongue-in-cheek, (kinda hard to convey with the written word).   But... also a smattering of truth.   Which I took at face value, as he claimed to own several.  I don't know if you just got lucky with your '97s, or others seem to be unlucky... but my own experience is that they're temperamental beasts.  I have one that is a former cowboy shooter's gun...  I got it to shoot Wild Bunch... my only problem with it, is that it doesn't work as it's designed to do.  Will not feed ammo from the magazine.  Been to several different 'smiths and each proclaim it good.  Yet, it remains VERY ammo eccentric.  To me... that's not a good shotgun.  I watched one 'smith buff on it a little, proceeded to load six in the magazine and rack them thru the action.  Off I went to a WB side match, and the 1st round wouldn't feed thru the action... six misses.  I don't need my equipment to help me into last place.  On the other hand, I have a IAC Chinester Riot Gun that has been absolutely flawless in function for over 15 years in Wild Bunch...  But that doesn't stop me taking along a backup... 

 

I don't doubt that a LOT of folks run their '97s without problem... but, I suspect a LOT MORE have a backup or two, just in case.  

[Eyesa Horg]

With the exception of when new, Ellie's CB model has been reliable for many years for her with minimal cleaning and care.

When brand new, it wouldn't eject without slamming it in a table and the extractor cutting a notch out of the hull and it wouldn't feed from the magazine. After a lot of emails it went back to CC. It came back pretty scratched up but basically working. It still doesn't eject the advertised 10', more like maybe 8-10 inches, but has been running for every match she shoots. I can't say I've noticed folks having much trouble with '97s and some can really run them hard. They seem reasonably reliable from observation.

[Sheriff Dill]

We have two of the Norinco 97’s. I will say the run nice when you run them like you stole them. Just started shooting a sxs and I will be sticking with that and keeping my 97 for wild bunch. My son will not shoot anything but his 97.  

[Sheriff Dill]

Squib Kidd just posted one for sale in classifieds. 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Yo Occidental Anchorage   Squib Kidd has one for sale $500.00. go to other forum

 

Jackrabbit Joe #414

[Widder, SASS #59054]

The '97' question:  do you need 1, 2, 3 or more?

 

I wonder how many 'back up' rifles and pistols all the '97 naysayers' own.

 

Basically, because original 97's have had years to age, and some abused, and many just sit in grandpa's closet for 50 years, they

inevitably get a bad reputation of being unreliable.   But heck, us Cowboys abuse the snot out of them.

We run em hard, treat em like a rented mule, slam em down....... and then tell everyone to be sure and have backups.

 

My guess is that most of the 66's and 73's are newer clones and if someone is using an original 66 or 73, it probably

has been thoroughly gone over after sitting in grandpa's closet for 50+ years.

 

And most of us have backups for all our guns.   I may have the most reliable Marlin in the world, but I still kept a backup.

And for a long time, I even kept backups for my Ruger's.

 

Pay attention to shooters at your next match and you'll see folks have issues (problems) with SxS, 1887, 1897, 73's, 66's, Marlin 1894's,

and all the other firearms that are in use.

 

The main thing, in my opinion, to look for is to get one in good condition and follow some of the good advice above on what to

look for.

 

All things considered and keeping things in perspective, a good 97 is still a good shotgun for our game.....and its prices are

relatively fair, considering the prices of our other firearms.

 

Best wishes.

 

..........Widder

 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

10 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Also keep your eyes open for a CB model. The latest and greatest!

There is a CB97 on Gunbroker 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

25 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

There is a CB97 on Gunbroker 

Only the first 400 or so were the "primo" guns, so with that s/n it will have some mixed parts and might not eject as far (mine is one of those, CB009xx) but it is still an excellent gun out of the box and that current price is great but still another day to go.  I paid $300 NIB for mine 4 years ago from an old dealer getting out of the business.  He'd had it a long time and didn't realize the real value!  A couple years ago I paid $700 for a Norinco with Coyote Cap action job.  Both those are excellent.  I resisted '97's for a long time because to me they "weren't cowboy" though I enjoyed seeing one used skillfully.  Had to get one for WB and tried it for CAS and gee, this is fun!   Shotgun, SxS or '97, is my weakest performance with fumbling shells and I rarely practice, and I'm a hair faster with the SxS because I have smaller hands, but I shoot the '97 more for smokeless just because slam-firing is so darn satisfying. 

[Occidental Anchor]

Wow thanks to everybody for the advice and opinions.  Lots to think about.  Always a wealth of knowledge here and I appreciate you all.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

54 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Only the first 400 or so were the "primo" guns, so with that s/n it will have some mixed parts and might not eject as far (mine is one of those, CB009xx) but it is still an excellent gun out of the box and that current price is great but still another day to go.  I paid $300 NIB for mine 4 years ago from an old dealer getting out of the business.  He'd had it a long time and didn't realize the real value!  A couple years ago I paid $700 for a Norinco with Coyote Cap action job.  Both those are excellent.  I resisted '97's for a long time because to me they "weren't cowboy" though I enjoyed seeing one used skillfully.  Had to get one for WB and tried it for CAS and gee, this is fun!   Shotgun, SxS or '97, is my weakest performance with fumbling shells and I rarely practice, and I'm a hair faster with the SxS because I have smaller hands, but I shoot the '97 more for smokeless just because slam-firing is so darn satisfying. 

I owned CB0004. It was NOT primo. Neither was my wife’s. Sold them both. 

[Eyesa Horg]

Ours is CB0186, not primo!!! Obviously never even had dummy run thru it after getting signed. Just signed by CC. But it's been reliable since getting repaired. No smoother than my old stock Norinco though!

Edited November 11, 2025 by Eyesa Horg
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