Shotgun Roll Crimp

[KatfishKid]

Trying to learn how to load shotgun shells by hand. I bought some 2 3/4" primed hulls to mess around with and I'm starting to wonder how much roll crimp is too much. The shell on the right has a more full column, but I believe its too long for my 2 3/4" chambered shotgun. The one in the middle is closer to the length of a factory shell, but the roll crimp looks extreme. Obviously trimming the hull would solve that, but I'm wondering if it's necessary?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

You do realize a shell and chamber is measured by the fired length of the case. Not the crimped length. If you measure that factory load, it will likely come out around 2 1/2” long, roughly. Fired, it will measure 2 3/4”. 

[KatfishKid]

Just now, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

You do realize a shell and chamber is measured by the fired length of the case. Not the crimped length. If you measure that factory load, it will likely come out around 2 1/2” long, roughly. Fired, it will measure 2 3/4”. 

Well, I do now that someone explained it to me. Regardless, will a deep crimp cause issues I should be aware of? If not, if not, it'll save on component usage. 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Not having needed to roll crimp, I have no experience. My question would be is how well the long roll crimp would unfold. Personally, I would trim the cases to keep the crimp to a minimum. 
That deep of a roll crimp has to unfold 180° to open fully. If it doesn’t open fully and the shot column pushes past the fold, pressure may spike. 

[Leroy Luck]

I roll crimp my black powder loads. I roll it until the edge is touching the overshot card.

 

I use the Ballistic Products roll crimper on a tabletop drill press with the height adjustment set to make the exact length every time. Crimps vary from hull to hull, but for the most part turn out nearly identical. 
 

These are some of my 12ga loads. There’s one hull in particular that didn’t get a “perfect” crimp, but it will fire with no issues. 

[Leroy Luck]

Here are some black powder 10ga hulls I’ve played around with. The super short one is now on its third loading with real black powder. 
 

As you can see in these photos, the crimp isn’t pretty, but it’s doing what it needs to do. 
 

[Blackwater 53393]

I try to get my component column to where I have approximately an eighth inch of shell material above the over shot card. When I finish my crimp, I want a full roll and the over shot card tight against the shot.

 

I’ve had instances where there was a little more plastic showing, but I haven’t had any discernible issues with over pressure or other failure.

 

Roll crimping also allows me to reuse shells that have received damage to the crimped portion of the shell.  I simply trim off the damage and shorten my column. I shoot them until the overall length of the empty hull is less than 2 1/2”!!

 

 

Two different over shot cards. Clear plastic and paper.

 

 

Short 10ga shell.

Edited November 8 by Blackwater 53393

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

I trim my hulls before roll crimping.  My Chinchester 1887 ejects the shorter hulls much easier than full length star crimped.  And yes if levered with authority it will eject regular 23/4 star crimped hulls with the exception of Fiocchi translucent hulls which are just a bit longer than other hulls and tend to catch on top of the chamber.

[Lucky R. K.]

I seem to get the best results with a hand operated roll crimper.

Lucky 

["Big Boston"]

Historically, if my research was correct, was in the opposite direction. The roll crimp was the standard, and hull length was of a length that would accommodate the charge. Remember, the powder was Black and the wad column was cards and fibers. For example, the common 16 ga shell was 2 9/16, and when converting to a folded crimp, the hull was increased to 2 3/4 so the original roll crimp load could be loaded in the folded crimp hull. 
 

Before 3" shells were common, you could load more shot if you used the fold crimp hull and used a roll crimp. 

 

That's the history, and my experience is that applying a good looking fold crimp is a bit beyond my pay grade, it's a skill. A fold crimp is just production in comparison. 

 

It looks to me that you are well on your way to succeeding, good on you. The stiffness of the overshot wad likely aids in opening up the crimp, but with 7 to 10,000 pounds of pressure, I'm thinking stopping it from opening would be an issue. I'm thinking that before pressure reached 1000, the wad column would be moving, remember, for the original brass hulls, the overshot was crimped in place, like a bullet, and if the powder lit, the shot would have left the barrel. 

 

Some of the old manuals had some interesting write ups on roll crimping, but most reference paper hulls. It wasn't lack of knowledge that stopped me, it was my lack of artistic skills and that ZEN has never been a concept that I embrace very well.

 

BB 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

If yer gonna play around with roll crimping shotshells, this article by Tom Bullock is worth a good read.

https://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

--Dawg

[KatfishKid]

I tested a few and while they all shot fine, the load I liked best is using the 4.0cc Lee dipper of FFg, nitro card, Clay buster wad, 1 1/8oz of 7.5 shot and a cardboard overshot card. I might dial it back just a bit, but the recoil is fine and the smoke and noise is good. I'm using an old hand crank roll crimper and after loading a hundred rounds and getting blisters on my hand, I'm definitely getting a roll crimp bit for a drill press. 

[Blackwater 53393]

If you have a fairly steady hand and a shotshell clamp, you can roll crimp with a hand drill, (it’s really called a drill motor) and a good roll crimp tool!  Those shown in my previous post were done that way.

[Eyesa Horg]

I had good results with one of the antique hand crank roll crimpers. Only issue was the over short card falling out sometimes when inserting into the crimper. Keep a bucket/ box under it. Next time I'll try mounting it vertical!!

[KatfishKid]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I had good results with one of the antique hand crank roll crimpers. Only issue was the over short card falling out sometimes when inserting into the crimper. Keep a bucket/ box under it. Next time I'll try mounting it vertical!!

 Yeah, I dumped 3 rounds worth of shot on the floor before I had the forehead slap moment and mounted it vertically. 

[Eyesa Horg]

For a simple device they work pretty well though!

[Lucky R. K.]

4 minutes ago, KatfishKid said:

 Yeah, I dumped 3 rounds worth of shot on the floor before I had the forehead slap moment and mounted it vertically. 

You can also slip the overshot card into the hull to hold the shot while inserting the hull into the crimper.

Lucky 

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

You can also slip the overshot card into the hull to hold the shot while inserting the hull into the crimper.

Lucky 

The issue comes when the card falls out before the shell is all the way in!

[Lucky R. K.]

21 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The issue comes when the card falls out before the shell is all the way in!

If your card is the correct size it will not fall out. It will fit snuggly to the case walls.

Lucky 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said:

If your card is the correct size it will not fall out. It will fit snuggly to the case walls.

Lucky 

Except for those that don't!!

[KatfishKid]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Except for those that don't!!

Yeppers. I found a lot of inconsistencies with shotgun loading components when it comes to sizing. Even using 11ga cards some of them just fall out or they're nearly impossible to get in without creasing/deforming.  

[Eyesa Horg]

51 minutes ago, KatfishKid said:

Yeppers. I found a lot of inconsistencies with shotgun loading components when it comes to sizing. Even using 11ga cards some of them just fall out or they're nearly impossible to get in without creasing/deforming.  

If you're using a MEC , lay the overshot card in the wad fingers and use the wad ram to put it in the hull. It won't cause anything else to activate. Thank you Doc McCoy!

[Lucky R. K.]

7 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Except for those that don't!!

Guess I have just been doing it wrong for all these years. 

Lucky 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

This helps a lot doing the roll crimp at the work bench

 

Edited November 12 by Rooster Ron Wayne
Add Pic

[Eyesa Horg]

13 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

Guess I have just been doing it wrong for all these years. 

Lucky 

The issue came with using an antique roll crimper mounted horizontal. If you happen to not go in smooth, the shot pressing on the card could knock it out relatively easily.

[Lucky R. K.]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The issue came with using an antique roll crimper mounted horizontal. If you happen to not go in smooth, the shot pressing on the card could knock it out relatively easily.

I understand your logic but that has never happened to me while producing literally 100's of rounds. If you look at the picture I posted you can see that the tool is made to mount in a horizontal position

Lucky 

Edited November 12 by Lucky R. K.

[Eyesa Horg]

I've done a few hundred myself, but it only takes one to make a real mess!! The hulls I used were the pre primed ones from BPI, so maybe being new made a difference, I don't know! But putting something to catch the shot seems like a good precaution!

[Lucky R. K.]

9 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I've done a few hundred myself, but it only takes one to make a real mess!! The hulls I used were the pre primed ones from BPI, so maybe being new made a difference, I don't know! But putting something to catch the shot seems like a good precaution!

If you are having that problem, then I agree.

Lucky 

[Blackwater 53393]

YEAH!!  New shells don’t readily hold the over shot cards the way a once fired or range pickup shell will.  There’s no old crimp creases for the card to catch on.

 

You might find that same issue with old shells that you trim the old crimp off of.

 

Many reloaders find that turning the hand crank roll crimp tool to vertical is the easiest way to avoid dumping shot.  A big plastic bowl makes a good spilled shot collector.

 

[watab kid]

as much as i like the look and nostalgia of the roll crimp im guessing it would irritate me 

[Blackwater 53393]

11 hours ago, watab kid said:

as much as i like the look and nostalgia of the roll crimp im guessing it would irritate me 

Actually, with the proper set of tools, it’s easy and you never have to worry about your folded crimp relaxing and spilling shot out of your boxed or bagged up shells.

 

It’ll also allow you to reload shells that have scorched or cracked crimp sections. You simply trim the bad material off and adjust your shot column. Many fold crimp presses aren’t capable of finishing shorter shells. 
 

I do this often with my harder to find 10ga shells.  I have some that have been reloaded a dozen times and are still viable!

[watab kid]

11 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Actually, with the proper set of tools, it’s easy and you never have to worry about your folded crimp relaxing and spilling shot out of your boxed or bagged up shells.

 

It’ll also allow you to reload shells that have scorched or cracked crimp sections. You simply trim the bad material off and adjust your shot column. Many fold crimp presses aren’t capable of finishing shorter shells. 
 

I do this often with my harder to find 10ga shells.  I have some that have been reloaded a dozen times and are still viable!

i can understand those benefits and respect that ability to extend the case life , both of those led me into this discussion , my concern at this point is my ability at this age to actually perform the tasks , i got no problem buying the proper tools i can see how they would pay for themselves , 

ive been making adjustments to all my activities to accommodate my arthritis as it seems to be introducing new issues more rapidly lately 

[Blackwater 53393]

23 minutes ago, watab kid said:

i can understand those benefits and respect that ability to extend the case life , both of those led me into this discussion , my concern at this point is my ability at this age to actually perform the tasks , i got no problem buying the proper tools i can see how they would pay for themselves , 

ive been making adjustments to all my activities to accommodate my arthritis as it seems to be introducing new issues more rapidly lately 

 

I can certainly understand.  Between arthritis and chronic dry skin issues with my hands, I’m finding it more difficult to handle small items and some delicate tasks.

 

This isn’t really that troublesome. A small fixture to hold the shells, a razor knife or a shotshell trimmer, and the proper size roll crimping tool to use in a hand drill motor or drill press and you’re all set.

 

Everything else can be done in any shotshell press. Powder, wad, shot, and the over shot card can all be assembled in your single stage or multi station press and then just clamp the charged shell into the holding fixture and run the crimp tool down onto the top of the shell with the drill, (motor).

 

If you can drill a hole straight in a board, you can do this.

 

Edited November 15 by Blackwater 53393

[watab kid]

16 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

I can certainly understand.  Between arthritis and chronic dry skin issues with my hands, I’m finding it more difficult to handle small items and some delicate tasks.

 

This isn’t really that troublesome. A small fixture to hold the shells, a razor knife or a shotshell trimmer, and the proper size roll crimping tool to use in a hand drill motor or drill press and you’re all set.

 

Everything else can be done in any shotshell press. Powder, wad, shot, and the over shot card can all be assembled in your single stage or multi station press and then just clamp the charged shell into the holding fixture and run the crimp tool down onto the top of the shell with the drill, (motor).

 

If you can drill a hole straight in a board, you can do this.

 

sounds like we share some loss of small motor skills , mine are accompanied with some pain just to complicate things but yes i can still handle the shotshell , i would need the fixture to hold it and the roll crimp tool to install in one of my two drill presses , i may have to look at this a bit more - but to be honest i have a large inventory of shotshells and probably wont live long enough to need to fire up my PW again , 

 

but just for something to do - i may have to dig a little deeper into this 

[Blackwater 53393]

40 minutes ago, watab kid said:

sounds like we share some loss of small motor skills , mine are accompanied with some pain just to complicate things but yes i can still handle the shotshell , i would need the fixture to hold it and the roll crimp tool to install in one of my two drill presses , i may have to look at this a bit more - but to be honest i have a large inventory of shotshells and probably wont live long enough to need to fire up my PW again , 

 

but just for something to do - i may have to dig a little deeper into this 

I took one of the weeks that I was recovering from the foot surgery and reloaded every STS shell I had, just for something to do to keep from going around the bend!

 

I took a couple of days and trimmed all of my 10ga Black Powder shells, reloaded them all, and I roll crimped them because my press equipment wasn’t capable of handling short shells.

 

I even tried my hand, fairly successfully, at reloading some old paper 12ga shells that a couple friends sent to me as gifts!

 

When you’re laid up, you can find all sorts of things to break up the monotony and boredom!

 

HELL!  I’m still struggling to learn to walk for the ninth time! I’ve been laid up for so long that I have NO stamina! But I can still fiddle around in the reloading room and be productive while I work on rehabbing!

 

I STILL have a thirty gallon drum more than half full of older AAs!! 🤪🤣

 

The fixture is pictured above in Rooster’s post and the roll crimper is available at Ballistic Products, (see below).

 

Edited November 15 by Blackwater 53393