Info needed on Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works .38 S&W

[Jonathan Slim Chance]

I recently came into possession of an old pocket pistol and am looking for more information on it.

 

It's an Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works Hammerless top break, Five shot .38 S&W.  Other than the oddball Charter Arms grips, it's in decent enough shape, and it does function and fire.

 

Any help on age, information would be greatly appreciated.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Take the grips off.  If it has a leaf spring it's black powder only.   If it's a coil spring, safe for smokeless.

Beyond that, I can tell you that this is a fairly well made pistol that is pleasant to shoot.    I once won a pocket pistol side match with one.

But beyond that, I don't know any other specifics.   No one seems to have any of the factory records, and I could not find anything but general info when I was researching my collection.

The Wiki Page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Johnson, does have data that'll let you get a rough time period as to when it was made.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Take the grips off.  If it has a leaf spring it's black powder only.   If it's a coil spring, safe for smokeless.

This.....

Other than that they are pretty decent pocket pistols. I have one in 32 S&W that is black powder only.

[Jack Spade]

I have one that looks just like that one, mine is supposed to be black powder only but it has been used in pocket pistol side matches for years loaded with 1.4 grains of trail boss.  

Edited October 31, 2025 by Jack Spade

[El Sobrante Kid]

The two cross pins between the cylinder and the trigger tell you that it is a first or second model and not built to use smokeless loads.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

7 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

No one seems to have any of the factory records

Not true.  As I have posted here several times, the definitive reference to date and define an Iver Johnson pistol is the book by W E Goforth,   Has a pretty complete serial number set in it.  

 

"Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works Firearms 1871-1993 " published by Gun Show Books of Hudson WI.  ISBN-10  number is: 0-9787086-0-1

 

Like this listing on EBay from Gun Show Books themselves:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174200101382

But don't go pay THAT price!  Usually pretty easy to find used at a lower price.

 

I'll look up in my copy to see if the OP gave enough pictures to exactly identify the production year..

 

First thing right off the bat, it is a Black Powder era gun, due to the long cylinder locking slots (these are the easiest way to tell).

 

I read the serial as 46495 (tell me if that is not correct).   That could make it an 1894 Large Frame First Model.  Or an 1895 Large Frame Second Model.  To tell the difference between the two, I would need the exact wording roll stamped into the rib of the barrel.  It will contain the company name and several patent dates (from the 1800s).   Post up the roll mark and we can find out.  

 

Several other things are different between First and Second models, but spotting those differences involves looking at specific parts of the gun that a new owner may not really understand where to look.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Not true.  As I have posted here several times, the definitive reference to date and define an Iver Johnson pistol is the book by W E Goforth,   Has a pretty complete serial number set in it.  

 

Ah, that is good to know!   Perhaps a more accurate statement is, "No one who has the records is offering a "factory letter" for these guns."  
 

 

[watab kid]

well , ive had one [its gone now] since i was seven years old and it was old then , that would have been 1957 , they were considered saturday night specials in those days as i recall , not very expensive at the time which is how i ended up with it - my grandfather gave it to me along with a stevens favorite 22lr rifle 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

You must take off the grips and tell us the COMPLETE serial number including the letter prefix or that there is no letter prefix, stamped on the left side of the grip frame.  IJ reused serial numbers but knowing the letter prefix nails it down.  The BEST way to get a detailed explanation of what it is, is to post a set of good clear photos with all information you can provide on https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/ in the The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum.  There are real experts there.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Serial number has been posted already.  IJ put prefixes on the trigger guard number if the serial number had one....and it seems complete (not partially ground off).   

 

If the poster really wants more info, he should post a clear picture of the rib markings! 

 

good luck, GJ

 

Edited November 1, 2025 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Serial number has been posted already.  IJ put prefixes on the trigger guard number if the serial number had one....and it seems complete (not partially ground off).   

 

If the poster really wants more info, he should post a clear picture of the rib markings! 

 

good luck, GJ

 

Respectfully disagree.  Numbers on trigger guard, letter prefix ONLY on grip frame.  But of course I could be wrong -- maybe IJ just forgot to put the B prefix on the trigger guard of my 1912 Iver Johnson .32 S&W Safety Automatic Hammerless Revolver, Third Model, 1st Variation, serial number B67506.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Im not 100% positive. 

But I think it wearing Charter Arms grips .

Rooster 

[Jonathan Slim Chance]

OK, in answer to the questions:

I read the serial number on the trigger guard as 26485.  It appears to be hand stamped as the figures and depths appear to be irregular.

 

The stamping on the grip frame look like J 26485, so the numbers agree, with the addition of the 'J'

 

The top rib is marked "Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works, Fitchburg, Mass, USA".  No other marks are in evidence.

 

It is a leaf spring gun, as seen on the first grip frame picture attached.

 

And yes, it is wearing Charter Arms grips, as included in the initial posting description ("...Other than the oddball Charter Arms grips...").  I'd like to find a set of correct grips, but at this point the CA grips are serviceable.

 

Hope this information is helpful.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

OK, with a J 26485 serial, that is a 2nd Model (Black Powder) Hammerless Large Frame IJ.  Made in 1904.  Per the Goforth listings.

 

I stand corrected about the trigger guard serial number.  Goforth does indeed say that the beginning Letter Mark (the production lot) is omitted from the trigger guard stamping, but included on the left side of frame.  

 

The bottom of the grip frame at one time would have had about 5 Patent dates on it, running from 1886 to 1896.  But, if the grip frame was ground to match new grips (those Charter Arms), those rollmarks would be gone.

 

Be very cautious of shooting any smokeless powder load, even "factory" 38 S&W cartridges.  The top latch and the cylinder are both fairly weak.  The usual damage occurs to the top latch, where it gets battered to where it does not make a strong lockup on the latch lock post coming up under the rear sight area.   And avoid using Hoppe's bore solvent (or other cleaners with ammonia) on this gun, as the nickel plating on these guns is easily bubbled and flaked.  Your plating looks just about 100% - NICE.  Don't often see these in this nice a cosmetic condition.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited November 2, 2025 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

GJ said "Be very cautious of shooting any smokeless powder load, even "factory" 38 S&W cartridges."  I have better advice: DON'T SHOOT SMOKELESS POWDER CARTRIDGES.  Not only are chamber pressures higher, the pressure curve is very different.  Your gun was not designed for the pressures and pressure curve of smokeless powder cartridges and it is not safe to do so, no matter what anyone else says.  That doesn't mean you can't come up with extremely light smokeless loads that will work, but if you do so just acknowledge the risks.

[DeaconKC]

And for grips, go here

https://triplek.com/vintage-grips-buttplates-parts/?_bc_fsnf=1&alphabet=I&page=3

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Well there you go !

 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Hopefully not to confuse cowpokes??

But what pistol has the Owl head pictured on the grip..

Owl head pointing one direction designates black powder only..

Owl head pointing the other direction designates any powder..

I thought they were Iver Johnson..

I have one in 32 cal.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Owl heads are on the top break Iver Johnsons.  Looking toward cylinder - black powder just about ready to explode in there.  Better watch out!

Away from cylinder - nothing to see, it's smokeless powder.  No smoke, no flame, just a speedy slug.

 

Owls not on this specimen because grips were replaced with a wood Charter Arms set of grips.   The gutta percha composition of the IJ grips meant they were broken if dropped or used to club an opponent.  Ouch.

 

good luck, GJ

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I happen to have a pair of grips that you can have for shipping 

[watab kid]

theres a deal 

[Jonathan Slim Chance]

10 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

I happen to have a pair of grips that you can have for shipping 

That is a right fine offer, and I'd be a fool to not take it (and, other than what my wife says, I'm not normally a fool).

 

I'll take 'em.  PM to follow.