44-40 APP 3F Question

[DukeSoprano]

I want to load some APP 3F in 44-40 with Acme 200 grain bullets.

Just double checking my procedure.

Figure out where the base of the bullet will end up in the case, fill case to that point, seat and crimp bullet, have fun?

That's it?

 

Is a little compression better than air space?

 

Thank you,

Duke

 

[Done Gone, SASS #49052]

Disclaimer: I don't have my notes in front of me. But I recollect loading 2cc of 3F APP in my 44-40s, with a 185gr bullet from Outlaw Bullets. This ended up with the bullet sitting right down on top of the powder. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Poster Child for APP chiming in.  Yep.  You've pretty much got it.  Simply load with APP to the bullet base and crimp.

 

Compression is not really recommended for APP.  Compression results in erratic pressures and velocities.  A 64th of an inch is about it for compression.  Just kissing the Bullet Base is gold.  By the Bye, the recipe is the same regardless of bullet.  Just load to the base and go.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

58 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Poster Child for APP chiming in.  Yep.  You've pretty much got it.  Simply load with APP to the bullet base and crimp.

 

Compression is not really recommended for APP.  Compression results in erratic pressures and velocities.  A 64th of an inch is about it for compression.  Just kissing the Bullet Base is gold.  By the Bye, the recipe is the same regardless of bullet.  Just load to the base and go.

Since I currently am going to give APP a try in my 44-40 Reloading, I will use your advice as my guidance.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

Just shot my first APP in a .38 wcf. Fill to the base of the bullet. Works fine. I miss the flames.

 

Still use real BP for. 44 WCF though. 

[Burn Through]

good luck it seems to lead in my guns too  dry I think 

[Sedalia Dave]

41 minutes ago, Burn Through said:

good luck it seems to lead in my guns too  dry I think 

 

The propellant used has NOTHING to due with barrel leading.

 

Barrel leading is caused by one or more of the below reasons

 

1. Using a bullet that is too small for the bore. (Allows Gas cutting)

2. Using a bullet that is too hard for the given velocity. (Bullet fails to properly obturate, allowing gas cutting)

3. Using a bullet that is way too soft for the given velocity. (High pressures force their way past the bullet resulting in Gas cutting)

4. Using a lube that is too hard for a given velocity. (Lube fails to properly seal the imperfections between bullet and bore. Allowing gas cutting.)

5. Using a lube that is too soft for a given velocity. (Excessive pressure forces past the lube causing gas cutting.)

 

At CAS velocities hard cast bullets are not needed. Anything harder than 14 is way too hard for our game.

[Tom Bullweed]

I use APP, 777 and Pyrodex, in that order of preference.  The two negatives that I have with APP is that it is the least available of these three (in my area) and the grains break down over time.  The bottom of my FFFg can have fine particle, somewhat finer than FFFFg.  I have to remember to softly rotate these powder cans before using it, so the fine powder mixes in.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

No retailer carries APP in my metro area.  I buy it from Scarlett at major matches.  777 is available online and meters well.  It has never damaged my powder measure.  However, it is energetic and leaves thick fouling.  Pyrodex is available but has undesirable properties.  At Bordertown my wife and I shot APP, 777 and GOEX.  The Soot Lords on our posse could tell the difference but no one cared.

Edited November 27 by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
grammar

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 10/24/2025 at 10:05 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Poster Child for APP chiming in.  Yep.  You've pretty much got it.  Simply load with APP to the bullet base and crimp.

 

Compression is not really recommended for APP.  Compression results in erratic pressures and velocities.  A 64th of an inch is about it for compression.  Just kissing the Bullet Base is gold.  By the Bye, the recipe is the same regardless of bullet.  Just load to the base and go.

100% The best advice you can get right there .

Rooster 

[DukeSoprano]

Tried it today in .44 Special, It does have a tad more kick them my Trail Boss load!

 

[Cemetery]

For me, when I load full house with APP, the powder goes to just about the bottleneck, and the 200g boolit goes on top.  Still not enough smoke for me though.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

On 10/25/2025 at 6:40 PM, Burn Through said:

good luck it seems to lead in my guns too  dry I think 

Original 44 WCF (44-40) bore was .427, but modern Uberties and Ruger pistols use .429 bore barrels. If you use .427 bullets you'll get leading.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

12 hours ago, Cemetery said:

Still not enough smoke for me though.

 

You forgot the  emoji.

 

APP, at least for Holli and I, makes a WALL OF WHITE SMOKE!  Shooting in the morning on Day 2 at the NC State match, with the sun just rising over the berm, I might as well have been shooting at the targets through a clean white sheet while wearing dark sunglasses. 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

You forgot the  emoji.

 

APP, at least for Holli and I, makes a WALL OF WHITE SMOKE!  Shooting in the morning on Day 2 at the NC State match, with the sun just rising over the berm, I might as well have been shooting at the targets through a clean white sheet while wearing dark sunglasses. 

 

 

 

Bet you still had a big grin on your face.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Bet you still had a big grin on your face.

 

Abso-Freeking-Lutely!    Managed to shoot 7 of the 10 stages clean (all 5 the first day) with only one miss each on the other three.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 11/26/2025 at 6:08 PM, DukeSoprano said:

Tried it today in .44 Special, It does have a tad more kick them my Trail Boss load!

 

I dont believe that pic is from your loading of APP .

APP smokes like mad but it dont make flames  .

Im a little confused with this pic ?

[John Kloehr]

On 10/25/2025 at 10:33 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

... bullet that is too hard for the given velocity...

... bullet that is way too soft for the given velocity...

I know there are things I don't know, this something I did not know I don't know.

[9245]

I just use 3F Swiss.  35 grains seems to load about perfect, I tried squeezing in 40 but it bulged the cases too much to chamber.

 

Combine that with a magnum primer and you should be able to make up the velocity loss from the missing 5 grains, if not exceed it a bit, by a lot if you use a factory crimp die and put a fairly heavy crimp on.

[DukeSoprano]

2 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I dont believe that pic is from your loading of APP .

APP smokes like mad but it dont make flames  .

Im a little confused with this pic ?

 

Yes it is APP 3F

[Frontier Lone Rider]

On 11/26/2025 at 6:55 PM, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

Original 44 WCF (44-40) bore was .427, but modern Uberties and Ruger pistols use .429 bore barrels. If you use .427 bullets you'll get leading.

The Ruger Custom Shop told me they bored the Cylinder Throats to what they say was the original diameter.425.   The problem for me was modern bullets are .427 to .430.

I bought two Manson Reamers from Brownell's and the accompanying set of Pilots.  The smallest diameter of the pilots is .427 and this has been too big to go in 18 Vaquero 44-40 Cylinder Throats.  I had a gun smith ream out two cylinders, then I bought my own reamers. 

However, the .427 pilot has been too big to start reaming.  I send the cylinders to Ruger to have them reamed to a larger diameter.  They never come back with the same diameter as requested in each of the cylinder's cylinder throats.  But as-long-as they ream them to at least .427 I can finish the job to .430.  I have reamed 16 different cylinders to date.  I have another Vaquero 44-40 on order.  I am waiting to see what it's Cylinder Throats are and whether I will need to ream the cylinder throats.

 

Ruger Customer Service has told me that they don't provide this service until I provide them with serial numbers of Vaqueros that had already received this service from them.  For some reason Customer Service gives one a hard time to get this service.  At times I have had to talk with four different agents until I get the go ahead to send them the cylinder.  Then they have told me that the cylinder has to be shipped through an FFL, not so.  They have said they may not provide this service as the firearm is old.  One wanted me to ship them the entire firearm so they could determine if the Vaquero was safe to fire, that was never going to happen.

 

The unsafe situation with the original cylinder throat diameter of .425 is you get high primers when firing larger .428 to .430 bullets.  Then the cylinder is hard to turn or won't rotate at all.  This results in the unsafe act of trying to turn the cylinder while firing in a match.  I found this to be very frustrating and unsafe until Colorado Coffinmaker explained to me what was happening.  Thank You.

 

I own two American Regulators in 44-40 and two Uberti Cattleman IIs in 44-40.  They both came with .430-cylinder throats.

[DukeSoprano]

You may not see flames, but if you record shots and play them back at 1% Speed, you actually see what more than the naked eye can.

 

Here is a pic of one of my USPSA Open guns shooting 38 Super Comp, I do not see flames when I am shooting it.

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

On 11/28/2025 at 7:10 AM, John Kloehr said:

I know there are things I don't know, this something I did not know I don't know.

 Download and read “From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners”. It’s available for download in pdf format from many sources. 
I have one more that is only available in print. When I find it I’ll post it too.