all you have is a 9 mm

[Whitey James]

 

[Matthew Duncan]

On 10/17/2025 at 11:00 PM, Alpo said:

…what bullet weight would you use?

The same bullet weight the military and or the local police use.

[Alpo]

1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

The same bullet weight the military and or the local police use.

Why?

 

I've seen recommendations about choosing a gun, and to take the one that the police use. So when you're on trial for murdering that poor innocent little homebreaker, they won't be showing your EVIL DEADLY TERRIBLE GUN, like a Desert Eagle maybe, or a Wildey. Because the gun you used is the same gun that the police have, so it can't be such a terrible gun.

 

I suppose you could go with the same theory that "I use gold dot 124 grain jacket hollow points, the same as the local police do, so this is not super duper killer ammunition. It's the same stuff the cops have".

 

But that's bullet TYPE. And would really only apply to shooting some person.

 

My question was about bullet WEIGHT, and it was about using it for anything - hunting, plinking, serious target shooting, self-defense. Anything and everything.

 

The military uses 124 grain, but it's 124 grain full metal jacket. Generally the cops - whatever weight they use - will use jacketed hollow point.

[watab kid]

it works and is reasonably priced , its a value thing vs results , im not privey to all th thought maybe someone else is but of the 9mm ammo ive seen available most common is the 115 on commercial market , imrecently in reciet of some 147s , ive not shot them yet - next weal i think , ill let you know what i thik 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

HST, 9mm Luger, 147 Grain, Jacketed Hollow point.  S&W M&P 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

20 minutes ago, watab kid said:

it works and is reasonably priced , its a value thing vs results , im not privey to all th thought maybe someone else is but of the 9mm ammo ive seen available most common is the 115 on commercial market ,

Most big box stores have 115gr FMJ for about $10 or $11 a box, but FMJ is about the last ammo I'd use if I wanted to stop a threat. I don't play the "It's what XXX uses" game. I use what is likely to STOP, not kill, (for legal reasons) the threat. While a FMJ bullet might stop and eventually kill, I want something that will stop the threat the fastest. If you can stop him with one or two shots, it will go over better with the authorities and eventually a Jury, than if you had to KEEP shooting him to make him stop. 

[ShadowCatcher]

15 hours ago, Alpo said:

Why?

 

I<SNIP>

 

The military uses 124 grain, but it's 124 grain full metal jacket. Generally the cops - whatever weight they use - will use jacketed hollow point.

The military uses 115 gr FMJ from Winchester, and the plain clothes military police are issued the 147 gr JHP also from Winchester, at least as of a year or so ago.

SC

 

[Alpo]

Really?

 

9mm NATO ammunition, as far as I'm aware, is 124 grain full metal jacket. Basically plus P because it's hotter than standard 124 grain ammo here, but still 124 grain.

 

So after all the whoopty whoop and la dee dah and "we have to get rid of the 45 so we can be 9 mm like the rest of NATO", we don't use the same ammo?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

It might sound odd, but I'd go with 9mm Ball ammo.  It might be "underpowered" in the opinion of many, but it WORKS in any autoloading 9mm you care to name.   Reliability is key.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

take a trip to the LGS 

 

and get ya a 45acp 

 

   

[Jiminy Cricket]

On 10/17/2025 at 9:23 PM, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

In my opinion, a 115gr bullet is a little light for penetration. And a 147gr is a little heavy for the speed needed for reliable expansion, especially in the short barrel micro 9s that are so popular these days. I carry Federal Hydra Shok 124gr in my Star Firestar in the underseat box in my Jeep, and probably would carry the same if I decided to carry a 9mm as my EDC. 

My primary carry is a P239 in 40S&W.  I started watching YouTube "this vs that" videos and finally settled on using Hydra Shok, mostly because I was most accurate with it after testing my short list.  When I purchased the P365 in 9mm, I stuck with Hydra Shok but I'm not as accurate with Hydra Shok in 9mm as I am in 40S&W.  I'll probably have to do another deep dive into the "this vs that" videos and make another short list. I'm not settled on what round I prefer in 9mm.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

So Alpo, unless I’ve missed something, this thread started with a question about what bullet weight would you use for an all-round 9x19 round? Have we gotten to a consensus on what that is? Seems this thread has devolved into what’s the best self-defense round, which is an altogether different topic. 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

39 minutes ago, Jiminy Cricket said:

 I'll probably have to do another deep dive into the "this vs that" videos and make another short list. I'm not settled on what round I prefer in 9mm.

I don't read a lot into  the "this vs that" videos for accuracy, because unless a particular round proves to "pattern" rather than group in multiple platforms, they don't mean much except the they group well, or poorly, in that single gun. 

Comparing performance is a whole different ball of wax. Comparing round (A), (B), and (C) for penetration and expansion is far more telling. The only way you'll know how a specific round groups out of your gun is to run a hundred or so through it. 

But if you think about it, and research defensive shootings, I think that you'll find that 6 inches at 6 feet is more than adequate for the purpose. Do defencive shooting happen at further ranges? Of course. But you're looking at 1% of 1% of the 00.01% chance that you'll get into ANY shooting, let alone that situation. 

The website I inserted earlier has done much of that work already. Pick the round you think looks good, (don't forget that barrel length counts too), and try them out.   

[Alpo]

41 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

which is an altogether different topic. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^°

Yeah, what he said.

[watab kid]

On 10/19/2025 at 10:47 PM, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Most big box stores have 115gr FMJ for about $10 or $11 a box, but FMJ is about the last ammo I'd use if I wanted to stop a threat. I don't play the "It's what XXX uses" game. I use what is likely to STOP, not kill, (for legal reasons) the threat. While a FMJ bullet might stop and eventually kill, I want something that will stop the threat the fastest. If you can stop him with one or two shots, it will go over better with the authorities and eventually a Jury, than if you had to KEEP shooting him to make him stop. 

makes sense but i do have "stopping" ammo in my 380 , ive heard that if you use specialized ammo iy might get dicy in court ....i have no experience yet and hope never to have , but , if that day comes i do want it stopped ASAP , ill shoot till it stops 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, watab kid said:

makes sense but i do have "stopping" ammo in my 380 , ive heard that if you use specialized ammo iy might get dicy in court ....i have no experience yet and hope never to have , but , if that day comes i do want it stopped ASAP , ill shoot till it stops 

The source for the "ammo will get you in trouble" comes from a story propagated by Massad Ayoob about a guy who gave his wife mixed reloads. If you are using any factory ammo, there's no reasonable question as to your intent. My previous comment was meant to suggest that it might look better if you only had to shoot once or twice to stop the threat. If you had to empty the magazine it might not look as clean.

[watab kid]

30 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

The source for the "ammo will get you in trouble" comes from a story propagated by Massad Ayoob about a guy who gave his wife mixed reloads. If you are using any factory ammo, there's no reasonable question as to your intent. My previous comment was meant to suggest that it might look better if you only had to shoot once or twice to stop the threat. If you had to empty the magazine it might not look as clean.

ah , thank you for that , i know MA - met him once at our range during a shoot he was covering , im not going to say i believe everything he says , i was mostly recording in my mind what i learned/heard over the years , from a lot of sources yall know , in the end "if" i ever have to shoot ill do my best to be efficient but i will plan to finish on top of the ground , i dont care where the perp ends up really , 

[watab kid]

6 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I don't read a lot into  the "this vs that" videos for accuracy, because unless a particular round proves to "pattern" rather than group in multiple platforms, they don't mean much except the they group well, or poorly, in that single gun. 

Comparing performance is a whole different ball of wax. Comparing round (A), (B), and (C) for penetration and expansion is far more telling. The only way you'll know how a specific round groups out of your gun is to run a hundred or so through it. 

But if you think about it, and research defensive shootings, I think that you'll find that 6 inches at 6 feet is more than adequate for the purpose. Do defencive shooting happen at further ranges? Of course. But you're looking at 1% of 1% of the 00.01% chance that you'll get into ANY shooting, let alone that situation. 

The website I inserted earlier has done much of that work already. Pick the round you think looks good, (don't forget that barrel length counts too), and try them out.   

i agree with you , pick what 'you' ; like for the purpose you intend - most of us will never draw our weapon in defense [i hope] but if we do it will be close and quick without much forethought - if your shooting something your comfortable with it will be most effective 

[watab kid]

On 10/18/2025 at 5:29 PM, Alpo said:

I recall reading this, god, 45, maybe 50 years ago.

 

The Illinois State Police was armed with the brand new Smith & Wesson Model 39. And one trooper got his gun taken by a bad guy.

 

Bad guy pointed the gun at the cop and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened. Safety was on. Not being used to an automatic, he fingle-fungled around there for a while before pushing down a lever, then pointed the gun at the cop and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened. He had depressed the slide release. Fingle-fungled around some more and pushed a button. Pointed the gun at the cop and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened, because he had pushed the magazine release button.

 

Finally - FINALLY - he found the safety and pushed it off. Pointed the gun at the cop and pulled the trigger. And nothing happened. Because when he dropped the magazine on the ground the magazine disconnect took effect and the gun still would not shoot.

 

All this fumbling around gave the cop enough time to pull out his stick and he beat the hell out of the bad guy.

i really like both my M39 and M59 , the de-cocker DA/SA action is the one i would prefer if on my M1911 [but then it wouldn't be an M1911 anymore would it ? i carried my M39 for years till i got the colt 380 then changed to the SIG 938

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

8 hours ago, watab kid said:

ah , thank you for that , i know MA - met him once at our range during a shoot he was covering , im not going to say i believe everything he says 

I find that he's knowledgeable, experienced, and somewhat full of himself. The only reason I mention him is that EVERY comment about ammo in Court can be traced back to that one story from him. 

[Jiminy Cricket]

15 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I don't read a lot into  the "this vs that" videos for accuracy, because unless a particular round proves to "pattern" rather than group in multiple platforms, they don't mean much except the they group well, or poorly, in that single gun. 

Comparing performance is a whole different ball of wax. Comparing round (A), (B), and (C) for penetration and expansion is far more telling. The only way you'll know how a specific round groups out of your gun is to run a hundred or so through it. 

But if you think about it, and research defensive shootings, I think that you'll find that 6 inches at 6 feet is more than adequate for the purpose. Do defencive shooting happen at further ranges? Of course. But you're looking at 1% of 1% of the 00.01% chance that you'll get into ANY shooting, let alone that situation. 

The website I inserted earlier has done much of that work already. Pick the round you think looks good, (don't forget that barrel length counts too), and try them out.   

Thank you SGT,

 

I watched the "this vs that" videos for the ballistic performance not the accuracy.  For the 40S&W my short list was, I think, 7 rounds that I then bought 20 rounds each of.  I tested the accuracy in my gun with my hands and found the Hydro Shock to be the most accurate for me.  I bought the P365 for deeper concealment on days I don't want to dress appropriately to carry the P239.  I haven't done the same level of research with the 9mm that I had for the 40S&W, so I went with what I trusted.  I am good enough with the 9mm/Hydro Shock combo that I'm not going to throw them out, in fact, I qualified with it for my CCW with no misses, but I feel like I can do better.  I just haven't gotten around to doing the research yet.

 

Regards,

Cricket

[ShadowCatcher]

3 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I find that he's knowledgeable, experienced, and somewhat full of himself. The only reason I mention him is that EVERY comment about ammo in Court can be traced back to that one story from him. 

There's no question Mas is full of himself, he's won enough matches to brag a bit.  All that not withstanding, as I recall when Mas argued for using factory ammo, and particularly that which the local LEO's use, his argument was two fold.  One, it's been proven by local departments to work and therefore is reliable and adequate to task, eliminating the users need to do their own testing.  The second aspect was that in a civil suit the claimant might argue the case of the "Careless and angry person needed super-dooper ammo to guarantee a kill", etc.  His follow on point to that was to make sure your defense attorney knows how to argue an affirmative defense, and point out that you have tested this load in your gun and have determined that you are much more accurate with it and thus you're minimizing risks to bystanders, and because it is much more economical you have practiced with it much more to improve your shooting skills and make sure you are capable of controlling my firearm, etc. etc.  He never argued against carrying home loads, just that they're less defensible in a civil suit so you need to be cognizant of this and make sure your lawyer knows how to deal with the potential.  In a regular self defense shooting the likelihood of the LEO's worrying about home load versus factory is a long way down the curve as to whether the shooting was righteous or not.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If I'm remembering correctly the case that is often mentioned involves them trying to determine if the wife's death was suicide or murder. Because of the use of handloaded ammo, possibly with rounds loaded with different components, it made it hard to conduct reliable powder pattern and residue testing to determine what happened. 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

2 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If I'm remembering correctly the case that is often mentioned involves them trying to determine if the wife's death was suicide or murder. Because of the use of handloaded ammo, possibly with rounds loaded with different components, it made it hard to conduct reliable powder pattern and residue testing to determine what happened. 

That was pretty much it. But every time "ammo in court' comes up, this case is the cautionary tale. Just one case, repeatedly cited by Mas Ayoob. I'm not saying that he's wrong in THIS case, but it doesn't cover EVERY case.

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

That was pretty much it. But every time "ammo in court' comes up, this case is the cautionary tale.

 

Yeah, the "don't use ammo you loaded for EDC" bull scrape has been around for many years.  And as the Sgt. said, it's Ayboob's fault.  Stopped paying attention to that... him... a loooooong time ago.

 

IME, the FTF rate is worse for factory ammo than what I load - 9mm and everything else.  So SWJHPs are in all the 9mms. 

 

On another note:  Lotta "CARRY A .45 OR GO HOME" going on here.   I certainly don't feel under gunned with a 9mm.  "Shot placement" isn't only a hunting cliche.

[John Kloehr]

7 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

On another note:  Lotta "CARRY A .45 OR GO HOME" going on here.   I certainly don't feel under gunned with a 9mm.  "Shot placement" isn't only a hunting cliche.

It is not, nor is shot placement necessarily a strong factor. I read a (good) study one where even getting winged by a .22lr causes most assailants to stop, and that is the goal. And need to stop shooting when the threat stops/

 

But the assailant with "the fight" in them? A shot to the heart will still leave up to a minute until the brain runs out of oxygen, need to find that off switch at the base of the brain to stop that determined threat. Then shot placement really matters.

 

22lr might not be enough at 5 to 8 inches in gel. 9mm will do it with 12-18 inches for hollow points, up to 20 inches for FMJ. And generally independent of actual bullet weight.

 

And @Alpo, your opening post did ask about carry and include plinking to even zombie apocalypse. Far more to those topics than simple grain weight.

[Rip Snorter]

3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

It is not, nor is shot placement necessarily a strong factor. I read a (good) study one where even getting winged by a .22lr causes most assailants to stop, and that is the goal. And need to stop shooting when the threat stops/

 

But the assailant with "the fight" in them? A shot to the heart will still leave up to a minute until the brain runs out of oxygen, need to find that off switch at the base of the brain to stop that determined threat. Then shot placement really matters.

 

22lr might not be enough at 5 to 8 inches in gel. 9mm will do it with 12-18 inches for hollow points, up to 20 inches for FMJ. And generally independent of actual bullet weight.

 

And @Alpo, your opening post did ask about carry and include plinking to even zombie apocalypse. Far more to those topics than simple grain weight.

If you are a good shot, there are various instant stops, 9mm and up.  More is better.  These have been known and taught in law enforcement and military for a very long time.  .22? no one wants to be shot with anything, but given a choice in a life threatening situation, I'll lean 'con brio'!

[Alpo]

6 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

And @Alpo, your opening post did ask about carry and include plinking to even zombie apocalypse. Far more to those topics than simple grain weight.

The question was for one bullet to use for all of those. Not which bullet to use for each of them, but which way to use for all of them.

 

I shoot 45 ACP - I use 230. 45 Colt - 255. 38 special - 158. Doesn't matter whether I'm shooting paper or squirrels or bad guys. I use that bullet weight.

 

That was the question - one bullet weight.

 

But, going back and looking at what I actually said

 

If that was all you had, so whether you were hunting or plinking or defending your life from mutant zombie bikers, you were using a 9 mm - parabellum, let's be specific, 9x19 mm - what bullet weight would you use?

 

I can see how somebody could be confused and think I was asking which weight would you use for plinking and which weight would you use for defense and which weight would you use for hunting.

 

 

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

in 9mm I tend to shoot 124 Jhps 

 

I do have some 147 stashed back 

 

  

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

11 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

in 9mm I tend to shoot 124 Jhps 

 

I do have some 147 stashed back 

 

  

Thank you for a straight up, on topic, simple answer. 

[John Kloehr]

23 minutes ago, Alpo said:

The question was for one bullet to use for all of those. Not which bullet to use for each of them, but which way to use for all of them.

 

I shoot 45 ACP - I use 230. 45 Colt - 255. 38 special - 158. Doesn't matter whether I'm shooting paper or squirrels or bad guys. I use that bullet weight.

 

That was the question - one bullet weight.

 

But, going back and looking at what I actually said

 

If that was all you had, so whether you were hunting or plinking or defending your life from mutant zombie bikers, you were using a 9 mm - parabellum, let's be specific, 9x19 mm - what bullet weight would you use?

 

I can see how somebody could be confused and think I was asking which weight would you use for plinking and which weight would you use for defense and which weight would you use for hunting.

 

 

I'm just saying the post opened it up and the question then was too narrow.

 

As to what weight specifically... If I'm down to 9mm and nothing else left in my ammo cabinet or the few crates, it would be Blazer or Magtech 115 gr standard pressure FMJ as those go bang in every nine I have. I do have various SD loads for some of my nines, so all my mags for those would be full of what is not tested to work in everything else. Seems at this point I have for some reason exhausted all of my shotgun shells including slugs, 00 Buck, and my precious AA LNLR, all my 5.56 and .223, my crates of 7.62, my dwindling supplies of 44-40 and 44 Russian. I'll be into my .22lr 40 grain soon at this rate, if I can figure out why at this point I am even still alive.

 

Anyway, I consider Blazer Brass standard pressure 115 gr FMJ my default reference 9mm and it is what I carry (my carry is sensitive, maybe I could polish the feed ramp) and what I compete with. And I know how it shoots in all my guns. And I have a few cases of each.

 

I will note the Magtech only came about due to CoViD shortages (and the plant which makes it switching to ammo for Ukraine) so I went to the task of a second available source with the same characteristics and reliability. And bought a bunch.

 

Anyway, even if this conversation drifted from what you intended, I am enjoying the discussion so you have my thanks for starting it.

[Alpo]

On 10/17/2025 at 10:00 PM, Alpo said:

Ignore the fact that you have guns to play cowboy. Ignore any 38s or 45s or anything else that you might have.

 

All you have is a 9 mm.

 

What bullet weight would you carry?

As I said in the original post, you don't have 45s. You don't have shotguns. You don't have AR-15s.

 

All you have is a 9 mm. A 9 mm. One single gun. A 9 mm.

[John Kloehr]

Well then, do I get to choose which 9mm firearm based on a particular threat or other activity? Or is this a random matchup. Pick a firearm and the target will be revealed?

[Alpo]

You can have an AR-15 pistol in 9 mm. Or you can have a Glock 17. Are you can have some little micro 9 pocket pistol. Or anything else. In 9 mm Luger.

 

But only one.

 

Choose well.

[watab kid]

12 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I find that he's knowledgeable, experienced, and somewhat full of himself. The only reason I mention him is that EVERY comment about ammo in Court can be traced back to that one story from him. 

thats how it goes when you get a reputation , he has made that for himself ., and yes i thought he was a bit self impressed , but we had a pleasant conversation , his crew was a little annoying - in the way when i was doing my job , but hey back then there was a lot of that stuff happening at that shoot ,